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[Jedi Master of Orion]

But all elves could agree that the Qunari treat their elves more fairly than the Orlesians who kill them for sport and prostitute them to their chevaliers. Since Andrastianism is so exclusive, erasing Shartan from the Chant and putting humans above elves and the alienage provides little protection from the humans' cruelty, why would the elves logically be loyal to that savagery of the humans they must endure in comparison to the fairer life that Tallis lives? The South isn't too far south if they had a nation like Halamshiral acting as saboteurs on the Qunari's behalf. Elven Qunari agents infiltrated the Inquisition, what could their armies accomplish if they had elven spies and assassins in all of the nobles' households? Last time they had elven spies, they almost assassinated all of the Southern Thedas' leadership using only Kirkwall elves. And unless Briala is made a noble, they just been slighted by Empress Celene and Gaspard offers them no mercy either. There's no logical reason for the Qunari  to dismiss elven converts, the Qun takes everyone if they volunteer and if they don't the Qunari are not above killing those that deny the Qun to protect those that do convert.

 

Most elves are still Andrastian. And even without that elves have enough of a reason to dislike the Qun. Dragon Age 2 featured a pro-elven fanatic who hated Qunari so much she was willing to orchestrate terrorist attacks. Plus, I imagine many will still dislike the idea of living under the the restrictions of the Qun. 

[Steelcan]

Lol ironic. You know how the book ends right? " Winston feels he has at last ended his "stubborn, self-willed exile", exile from the love of Big Brother—a love Winston returns quite happily as he looks up in admiration at a portrait of Big Brother." Big Brother- or in this the context The Qun- wins.

yes Big Brother wins, but it is in no way treated as good thing.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Most elves are still Andrastian. And even without that elves have enough of a reason to dislike the Qun. Dragon Age 2 featured a pro-elven fanatic who hated Qunari so much she was willing to orchestrate terrorist attacks. Plus, I imagine many will still dislike the idea of living under the the restrictions of the Qun. 

The fanatic elves weren't Andrastians either. They're not Andrastian by choice, they are forced to be because the humans conquered them. We do remember it was the Chantry that called an Exalted March on the elves that forced them into the slums known as the alienage? Why would we logically conjecture that most elves are Andrastian? Rivain was Andrastian too, now the majority of their elves are Qunari.

[MisterJB]

I don't see what's wrong with Xil thinking that it would be nice for the elves to have a home where they can prosper, and not be killed in purges (like the one in Denerim that also wiped out an orphanage of children) or killed during the chevalier initiation rites simply because they are elves. Briala becoming the elven Marquise of the Dales is already a step in that direction.

 

 

And you supported the templars during the Mage-Templar War, when the templars were fighting and killing mages for a specific goal, so I don't see how you can vilify Xil for wanting to give the elves at least one safe place on the entire continent for the elves to reside in (much less when she's already addressed that Briala becoming the first elven Marquise of the Dales is already a step towards that goal).

Why is it that whenever someone brings up the consequences of a pro-elven plan or another, you immediately start recounting every wrong ever done to elves without actually addressing said consequences?

 

Yes, elves have a bad lot in life. None of which changes the fact we are talking about the deaths of, at least, dozens of thousands of innocent humans.

 

The matter in discussion is not whether elves deserve security, they do, but rather whether that justifies killing said number of innocent people. It does to you?

 

[Steelcan]

The fanatic elve wasn't an Andrastian either. They're not Andrastian by choice, they are forced to be because the humans conquered them. We do remember it was the Chantry that called an Exalted March on the elves that forced them into the slums known as the alienage? Why would we logically conjecture that most elves are Andrastian?

how many elves have we found practicing the Dalish religion in secret?  When is religious freedom brought up in say the City Elf origin?

 

Elves were converted en masse after the war, and they may have had held resentment over that but there's 0 evidence that most elves desire to convert back to worship of the Creators.

[Sports72Xtrm]

how many elves have we found practicing the Dalish religion in secret?  When is religious freedom brought up in say the City Elf origin?

 

Elves were converted en masse after the war, and they may have had held resentment over that but there's 0 evidence that most elves desire to convert back to worship of the Creators.

I never claimed they desire to convert back to the worship of the Creators. I claim that the Qun offers them a better life than what Andrastianism can provide. And since there are still Qunari elves that came from Kirkwall even after the Arishok was dealt with, that means the Qun still thrives there and even had enough power to hijack the Inquisition. So there is a population of elves discontent with Orlais and presumably Ferelden, and we have empirical evidence of Qunari elves infiltrating Kirkwall.

[MisterJB]

The fanatic elve wasn't an Andrastian either. They're not Andrastian by choice, they are forced to be because the humans conquered them. We do remember it was the Chantry that called an Exalted March on the elves that forced them into the slums known as the alienage? Why would we logically conjecture that most elves are Andrastian?

 

Ok, do you know what Charlemagne, for instance, did to the Saxons? We're talking about massacres, laws that condemned heretics to death and the establishment of ecclesiastic structures to convert the Saxons, etc.

 

And guess what, the Saxons today; Germans; are Christian. Because faiths can and are spread by force and they can and are also expelled by the natives many times. For instance, the Reconquista.

However, if they aren't, people begin to worship as their fathers did and they accept the faith as their own over time.

The City Elves don't think of the Chantry as this evil organization that forced them into slums over 700 years ago. It's just history to them and they worship the Maker just as everyone in their family has done for seven centuries.
 

[Sports72Xtrm]

Ok, do you know what Charlemagne, for instance, did to the Saxons? We're talking about massacres, laws that condemned heretics to death and the establishment of ecclesiastic structures to convert the Saxons, etc.

 

And guess what, the Saxons today; Germans; are Christian. Because faiths can and are spread by force and they can and are also expelled by the natives many times. For instance, the Reconquista.

However, if they aren't, people begin to worship as their fathers did and they accept the faith as their own over time.

The City Elves don't think of the Chantry as this evil organization that forced them into slums over 700 years ago. It's just history to them and they worship the Maker just as everyone in their family has done for seven centuries.
 

I know people, and people are led by incentives. Sons aren't their fathers, and if the Qun offers them a better life than a segregated slum where you can only rise as high as royal human ass wiper, there's no reason to be loyal to the Chantry. The privileged always overestimate their influence, but it's clear as day that the glamour of the sunburst throne was built on the conquering and suppression of the elven people. One of their "annointed"- Mhemnet- was a Rivain knight known for his love of killing elves. And they erased Shartan, the one elven part of the Chant from the Chant. You guys are delusional if you think the elves are loyal to that bigoted religion.

[LobselVith8]

Why is it that whenever someone brings up the consequences of a pro-elven plan or another, you immediately start recounting every wrong ever done to elves without actually addressing said consequences?

 

The purges of Alienages and the chevalier initiation rites didn't stop, so the point stands that Xil is addressing providing a place where the elves can live without having to suffer from these tragedies. We also know the consequences of allowing Briala to become the shadow ruler of Orlais, and the first elven Marquise of the Dales.

 

Yes, elves have a bad lot in life. None of which changes the fact we are talking about the deaths of, at least, dozens of thousands of innocent humans.

 

The matter in discussion is not whether elves deserve security, they do, but rather whether that justifies killing said number of innocent people. It does to you?

 

A lot of innocent elves die because of the status quo, as Xil explained, which is her point in providing the elves with a safe homeland in the hypothetical scenario she described. Preventing the deaths of thousands of men, women, and children is what Xil talked about by providing them with a place where they would be safe from these horrors.

[Sports72Xtrm]

yes Big Brother wins, but it is in no way treated as good thing.

Maybe not to you, but in the Context of the story, Winston- the elves- learned to love the Qun. So my point stands, there's no reason for the city elves to be loyal to the Chantry.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

So... you think people should love Big Brother?

[Sports72Xtrm]

So... you think people should love Big Brother?

I'm saying objectively, I can see from the perspective of a city elf, the appeal of the Qun.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

If we follow the Big Brother analogy, elves learn to love the Qun because they are tortured into it. 

 

But in the context of Dragon Age, the Qun does not allow adherents to marry or have children. Elves are likely to want to be able to start a family as much as the next person.

[Steelcan]

Maybe not to you, but in the Context of the story, Winston- the elves- learned to love the Qun. So my point stands, there's no reason for the city elves to be loyal to the Chantry.

yes and the moral of the story is how horrible such treatment is

 

I take it you never actually read the damn thing

[Sports72Xtrm]

If we follow the Big Brother analogy, elves learn to love the Qun because they are tortured into it. 

 

But in the context of Dragon Age, the Qun does not allow adherents to marry or have children. Elves are likely to want to be able to start a family as much as the next person.

Elves are still allowed to love, they're just not allowed to marry. Sexual desire is satiated in a different non-intimate way. What kind of life would that elf be able to provide his or her family in poverty, where the Chantry's law holds that they must pay tithes and follow their religion on penalty of anathema of even their slums, and any noble can interrupt their wedding to rape their wives, and daughters and kill their sons and fathers for sport with impunity. Any rebellion is an affront to the Maker. They want that love?

 

Edit: Winston, the main character of 1984 was not tortured, he was revealed the truth. His lover betrayed him, shattering the love he once coveted that inspired his rebellion. It showed him the ugly truth and with it he grew to accept reality.

[Steelcan]

Elves are still allowed to love, they're just not allowed to marry. Sexual desire is satiated in a different non-intimate way. What kind of life would that elf be able to provide his or her family in poverty, where the Chantry's law holds that they must pay tithes and follow their religion on penalty of anathema of even their slums, and any noble can interrupt their wedding to rape their wives, and daughters and kill their sons and fathers for sport with impunity. Any rebellion is an affront to the Maker. They want that love?

 

Edit: Winston, the main character of 1984 was not tortured, he was revealed the truth. His lover betrayed him, shattering the love he once coveted that inspired his rebellion. It showed him the ugly truth and with it he grew to accept reality.

truly because there's no difference between going to a hooker and marriage and kids

[Sports72Xtrm]

truly because there's no difference between going to a hooker and marriage and kids

Alas love is privilege not all could afford. Wynne and Fiona couldn't keep their sons, Zevran was sold to the Crows by his own mother out of the poverty City Elves live in, the city elf warden's intended fiance was murdered and their cousin raped, I'm sure there are more examples of more tragedy but if that is the reality society can only provide, then it is nature that put it that way, not the Qun.

[Steelcan]

Alas love is privilege not all could afford. Wynne and Fiona couldn't keep their sons, Zevran was sold to the Crows by his own mother out of the poverty City Elves live in, the city elf warden's intended fiance was murdered and their cousin raped, I'm sure there are more examples of more tragedy but if that is the reality society can only provide, then it is nature that put it that way, not the Qun.

sure, because there's tragedy out there its better to just enslave everyone, forbid them from reproducing or starting families.

[Sports72Xtrm]

sure, because there's tragedy out there its better to just enslave everyone, forbid them from reproducing or starting families.

Well they still reproduce, they just don't start families. Everyone is your family and you reproduce because it is your duty. You advocated the sacrifice of personal freedom is worth the safety of the majority yourself when you advocated the Circle.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Elves are still allowed to love, they're just not allowed to marry. Sexual desire is satiated in a different non-intimate way. What kind of life would that elf be able to provide his or her family in poverty, where the Chantry's law holds that they must pay tithes and follow their religion on penalty of anathema of even their slums, and any noble can interrupt their wedding to rape their wives, and daughters and kill their sons and fathers for sport with impunity. Any rebellion is an affront to the Maker. They want that love?

 

Edit: Winston, the main character of 1984 was not tortured, he was revealed the truth. His lover betrayed him, shattering the love he once coveted that inspired his rebellion. It showed him the ugly truth and with it he grew to accept reality.

 

The Chantry doesn't control Alienages. The secular governments do. The Southern Chantry nations are not theocracies. Rebellions are an "affront" to the state, just like basically anywhere. 

 

I didn't read 1984, but wasn't the main character strapped to a chair and threatened with starving rats eating his face? 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well they still reproduce, they just don't start families. Everyone is your family and you reproduce because it is your duty. You advocated the sacrifice of personal freedom is worth the safety of the majority yourself when you advocated the Circle.

 

Outside the Qun, I don't think in general elves are going to like that any more than humans.

[Sports72Xtrm]

The Chantry doesn't control Alienages. The secular governments do. The Southern Chantry nations are not theocracies. Rebellions are an "affront" to the state, just like basically anywhere. 

 

I didn't read 1984, but wasn't the main character strapped to a chair and threatened with starving rats eating his face? 

The main character betrayed his lover by saying "torture Julia" instead. Later on, Winston the main character, his lover revealed she said the same thing to them, revealing they both betrayed each other and that their love wasn't real but just a flight of fancy and no longer desired each other.

 

But the Chantry called the Exalted March that dictated they must stay in alienages controlled by the secular government or be branded an criminal. That exalted March forced them to be second class citizens.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Outside the Qun, I don't think in general elves are going to like that any more than humans.

Nevertheless the humans endure it because they lack the power to change their circumstances.

[Steelcan]

The main character betrayed his lover by saying "torture Julia" instead. Later on, Winston the main character revealed she said the same thing to them, revealing they both betrayed each other and that their love wasn't real but just a flight of fancy and no longer desired each other.

 

But the Chantry called the Exalted March that dictated they must stay in alienages controlled by the secular government or be branded an criminal. That exalted March forced them to be second class citizens.

No, Winston gave her up because he was scared for himself, that's how Big Brother wins, fear and thought control. 

 

The Chantry forced secular nations to accept them rather than leave them to be slaughtered by the vengeful Orlesians.

[Sports72Xtrm]

No, Winston gave her up because he was scared for himself, that's how Big Brother wins, fear and thought control. 

 

The Chantry forced secular nations to accept them rather than leave them to be slaughtered by the vengeful Orlesians.

So you admit that the Chantry is to blame for the elven plight and not secular government after all then.