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[Steelcan]

So you admit that the Chantry is to blame for the elven plight and not secular government after all then.

The Chantry doesn't set the living conditions in alienages.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The main character betrayed his lover by saying "torture Julia" instead. Later on, Winston the main character, his lover revealed she said the same thing to them, revealing they both betrayed each other and that their love wasn't real but just a flight of fancy and no longer desired each other.

 

But the Chantry called the Exalted March that dictated they must stay in alienages controlled by the secular government or be branded an criminal. That exalted March forced them to be second class citizens.

 

Actually there is no law that the elves must remain in Alienages (at least in Ferelden), it's just that those that do leave tend to be driven back by angry racist human mobs.

[Sports72Xtrm]

The Chantry doesn't set the living conditions in alienages.

But it was them that forced them there and encourage it by erasing Shartan and Ameridan, their history in the Chant and thus promote human superiority over elves. To this day, the elves are seen as lower in the eyes of the Maker because the Chantry promoted a narrative where elves were cruel to humans and performed sacrificial rituals in the Dales.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Actually there is no law that the elves must remain in Alienages (at least in Ferelden), it's just that those that do leave tend to be driven back by angry racist human mobs.

Racism promoted by the Chantry.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Racism promoted by the Chantry.

 

Racism against elves predates the Chantry. There's no evidence the Chantry makes a point of encouraging it. 

 

Just as a side note, I think it's worth taking note of the fact that I'm pretty sure this is a topic that people on both sides of the previous arguments would probably agree on. 

[Sports72Xtrm]

Racism against elves predates the Chantry. There's no evidence the Chantry makes a point of encouraging it. 

 

Just as a side note, I think it's worth taking note of the fact that I'm pretty sure this is a topic that people on both sides of the previous arguments would probably agree on. 

It didn't predate the Exalted March that the Chantry called on the Dales. And no, I don't agree to your notion. the Chantry's exalted march on the Dales institutionalized elven racism in all Andrastian countries.

[Steelcan]

But it was them that forced them there and encourage it by erasing Shartan and Ameridan, their history in the Chant and thus promote human superiority over elves. To this day, the elves are seen as lower in the eyes of the Maker because the Chantry promoted a narrative where elves were cruel to humans and performed sacrificial rituals in the Dales.

For all we know the elves DID sacrifice humans, the revelations about the build up to the war between Orlais and the Dales certainly don't paint the elves innocently, and there are codex entries in the emerald graves describing how the elves hanged human trespassers.

 

Elves are seen as having turned further away from the Maker, but they are not all condemned to hell or anything for it.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It didn't predate the Exalted March that the Chantry called on the Dales. And no, I don't agree to your notion. the Chantry's exalted march on the Dales institutionalized elven racism in all Andrastian countries.

 

The Ancient Tevinter Imperium was super racist against elves. Before Andraste, elves exclusively the slave class of the Imperium. It was also most responsible for knowledge of the elven religion being lost.

[Sports72Xtrm]

For all we know the elves DID sacrifice humans, the revelations about the build up to the war between Orlais and the Dales certainly don't paint the elves innocently, and there are codex entries in the emerald graves describing how the elves hanged human trespassers.

 

Elves are seen as having turned further away from the Maker, but they are not all condemned to hell or anything for it.

Their condemned to live in slums, their homes occupied, their rights non-existent compared to humans, their jobs are that of slaves forced into it because they have no advocates, and whether or not they are barbarians, the Qun would not condemn them for the sins of their fathers. The Chantry and human society does.

[Sports72Xtrm]

The Ancient Tevinter Imperium was super racist against elves. Before Andraste, elves exclusively the slave class of the Imperium. It was also most responsible for knowledge of the elven religion being lost.

And the elves rebelled with the followers of Andraste. Then the Chantry, the Andrastian cult, called an exalted march upon them and they lost their new home and their religion anyways but it wasn't because of the Imperium, it was because of the Chantry.

[Steelcan]

Their condemned to live in slums, their homes occupied, their rights non-existent compared to humans, their jobs are that of slaves forced into it because they have no advocates, and whether or not they are barbarians, the Qun would not condemn them for the sins of their fathers. The Chantry and human society does.

No it would just steal their minds and individuality and turn them into drones

 

a much better fate of course

[Steelcan]

And the elves rebelled with the followers of Andraste. Then the Chantry, the Andrastian cult, called an exalted march upon them and they lost their new home and their religion anyways but it wasn't because of the Imperium, it was because of the Chantry.

they "lost" their religion because they converted from it and seem to have no desire to return to it following the loss of a war they started.

[Sports72Xtrm]

No it would just steal their minds and individuality and turn them into drones

 

a much better fate of course

Tallis seems content. The Kirkwall elves converted. When you deprive them of a future, they seek something that gives them one, grim as the prospect may be.

[Sports72Xtrm]

they "lost" their religion because they converted from it and seem to have no desire to return to it following the loss of a war they started.

If they truly converted, then why do they plant a tree? Those are Dalish customs, not Chantry customs.

[Steelcan]

Tallis seems content. The Kirkwall elves converted. When you deprive them of a future, they seek something that gives them one, grim as the prospect may be.

"for many people it would just be a kinder form of slavery" -an actual qunari

[Steelcan]

If they truly converted, then why do they plant a tree? Those are Dalish customs, not Chantry customs.

if they didn't truly convert why aren't they secretly worshiping the creators?  hanging onto some traditions doesn't mean they didn't convert.

[Sports72Xtrm]

if they didn't truly convert why aren't they secretly worshiping the creators?  hanging onto some traditions doesn't mean they didn't convert.

Probably because heretics are systematically killed off. People forget that the Chantry religion was a cult among many but strangely the others seem to die off. The elves didn't convert by choice. The Chantry likes to threaten Exalted Marches on those that don't subscribe to their dictates and since they have the backing of Orlais, the most powerful nation, and the Circles and templars through its lyrium monopoly, its a threat that actually holds weight in the South.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Tallis is not exactly very certain of her place in the Qun. Both Mark of the Assassin and Felicia Day's web series are clear that Tallis is experiencing doubts. Even if she wasn't though, she's just one example. And she's from Tevinter, not the south. Some of the alienage elves fought with the Qunari, but that doesn't mean the entire aleiange converted to the Qun. That's ridiculous. 

[Steelcan]

Probably because heretics are systematically killed off. People forget that the Chantry religion was a cult among many but strangely the others seem to die off. The elves didn't convert by choice. The Chantry likes to threaten Exalted Marches on those that don't subscribe to their dictates and since they have the backing of Orlais, the most powerful nation, and the Circles and templars through its lyrium monopoly, its a threat that actually holds weight in the South.

It wasn't strange, Drakon subjugated or destroyed the other sects (though not all of them as we can see from the Disciples of Andraste and other groups such as the Inquisition).

 

The elves were converted hundreds of years before the events of Inquisition, they aren't still upset over it, the overwhelming majority of city elves are Andrastians and we have no cause to question their faith.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Tallis is not exactly very certain of her place in the Qun. Both Mark of the Assassin and Felicia Day's web series are clear that Tallis is experiencing doubts. Even if she wasn't though, she's just one example. And she's from Tevinter, not the south. Some of the alienage elves fought with the Qunari, but that doesn't mean the entire aleiange converted to the Qun. That's ridiculous. 

Rivain's elven qunari then. Heck, the majority of the popluace converted. I remember that it was a Chantry in Rivain that tried to exterminate them because they wouldn't convert back. How can you explain that devotion?

[Steelcan]

Rivain's elven qunari then. Heck, the majority of the popluace converted. I remember that it was a Chantry in Rivain that tried to exterminate them because they wouldn't convert back. How can you explain that devotion?

Rivain was occupied for quite a while iirc, more than enough time for the Ben-Hassrath to do their indoctrination

[Sports72Xtrm]

Rivain was occupied for quite a while iirc, more than enough time for the Ben-Hassrath to do their indoctrination

Qunari agents are all over Thedas in secret for who knows how long. Who knows how many have converted and indoctrinated. Iron Bull used to be one of them and nobody seemed particularly alarmed. Especially with elven revolts becoming more common, if they don't convert for a better life, they'll do it out of revenge against the "shems".

 

I mean you have the Halamshiral revolt, then the alienage in Denerim where they were sold to slavery and weddings interrupted for a rape fest by the local arl, a terrorist attack in Kirkwall, and saboteurs in the Inquisition planning to assassinate the Exalted Council. CALL ME CRAZY, BUT I THINK SOME ELVES ARE BIT RESENTFUL lol.

[MisterJB]

I know people, and people are led by incentives. Sons aren't their fathers, and if the Qun offers them a better life than a segregated slum where you can only rise as high as royal human ass wiper, there's no reason to be loyal to the Chantry. The privileged always overestimate their influence, but it's clear as day that the glamour of the sunburst throne was built on the conquering and suppression of the elven people. One of their "annointed"- Mhemnet- was a Rivain knight known for his love of killing elves. And they erased Shartan, the one elven part of the Chant from the Chant. You guys are delusional if you think the elves are loyal to that bigoted religion.

The elves' attitudes towards Andrastianism are the same as the human's. That is to say, they are varied.

There are devout elves who praise Andraste for her role in liberating them such as Valendrian; elves who seek to find their role within the religion such as the elf in Haven who asks whether it's true Andraste had an elven follower; elves who don't particularly care about it such as the elf in Kirkwall's alienage that thinks the Cleric is bothering him by asking him to take his family to the Chantry more than twice a year; elves who believe in the Maker and Andraste just fine but don't make it their central focus in life such as every elf we've seen using Andraste's name and the Maker's as a praise; and elves who don't follow it, such as the Dalish.

 

And regardless of how much you feel the Qun gives opportunities, the overwhelming majority of people would never follow it unless forced. Because people, which includes elves, like to have options and make choices.

 

[MisterJB]

Probably because heretics are systematically killed off. People forget that the Chantry religion was a cult among many but strangely the others seem to die off. The elves didn't convert by choice. The Chantry likes to threaten Exalted Marches on those that don't subscribe to their dictates and since they have the backing of Orlais, the most powerful nation, and the Circles and templars through its lyrium monopoly, its a threat that actually holds weight in the South.

 

No, no they aren't. There is absolutely zero evidence in the franchise of the Chantry routinely killing heretics. Hell, The World of Thedas actually says otherwise.
 

[MisterJB]

The purges of Alienages and the chevalier initiation rites didn't stop, so the point stands that Xil is addressing providing a place where the elves can live without having to suffer from these tragedies. We also know the consequences of allowing Briala to become the shadow ruler of Orlais, and the first elven Marquise of the Dales.

 

 

A lot of innocent elves die because of the status quo, as Xil explained, which is her point in providing the elves with a safe homeland in the hypothetical scenario she described. Preventing the deaths of thousands of men, women, and children is what Xil talked about by providing them with a place where they would be safe from these horrors.

 

My God, you are still doing.

Ok, going to put this as simple as possible. Xil wants to kill tens of thousands or more of  innocent humans in order to "provide the elves with a safe homeland" as you put it.

Is that ok with you?