1599 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

You are generalizing them right now as if most clans were like clan Lavellan.

"So you approached the Dalish to invite them for tea and they tied you up instead? You must suffer from terrible luck my friend, because it is very rare for any of them to do that".

You're vilifying them, and I'm addressing that what you claim isn't applicable for the entire ethnic group of men, women, and children who comprise the Dalish. Also, according to the lore, it's addressed that most clans actually leave humans alone, so your example isn't apt.

[Qun00]

That is referring to how they avoid setting up camp too close to the cities.

There are varying degrees to how negatively each clan feels about humans, but don't pretend it isn't a thing or even rare to see.

Well, someone has to offer a counterpoint to balance things out. I like elves as much as the next man, but you look at them with rose tinted glasses.

[In Exile]

Racism against elves predates the Chantry. There's no evidence the Chantry makes a point of encouraging it.

Just as a side note, I think it's worth taking note of the fact that I'm pretty sure this is a topic that people on both sides of the previous arguments would probably agree on.

That's not exactly true. Mother Gisele confirms that it's Chantry doctrine elves are further from the Maker than humans. She admits it is not necessarily principled but it is doctrine unless Leliana takes over.

[In Exile]

So, guys who do you think the ancient elves were fighting in that war that led (eventually) to the evanuris being seen as gods?

I would bet it's against then Titans. It fits with the metaphor of the "Earth" that we see being used in small doses in the elvhen related codex entries. The Forgotten Ones seem to be nursing old wounds at the Evanuris - the codex entry from the first DLC makes it sound like the Forgotten Ones fought alongside the Evanuris but didn't get the same credit.

[LobselVith8]

Well, someone has to offer a counterpoint to balance things out. I like elves as much as the next man, but you look at them with rose tinted glasses.

 

You're already well aware that I've addressed the misdeeds of Dalish elves like Zathrian, Velanna, Marethari (of Clan Sabrae), and Thelhen (of Clan Virnehn) in the past. You're the one who generalized an entire ethnic group of people, and you've done so even before I returned to the forums a few days ago.

[In Exile]

You're vilifying them, and I'm addressing that what you isn't applicable for the entire ethnic group of men, women, and children who comprise the Dalish. Also, according to the lore, it's addressed that most clans actually leave humans alone, so your example isn't apt.

The Dalish - by the very nature of their beliefs - vilify an entire race of men women and children as plague bearing vermin while dreaming of the day they'll be able to create their racially pure utopia. I wouldn't really bring up the point of Dalish tolerance were I in your position. The commonly held Dalish view is certainly more racist than the commonly held human one - whether the Dalish are inclined to be worse to humans versus vice versa is hard to say since the two groups have little connection. We have evidence of violence in both sides.

[Xilizhra]

That is referring to how they avoid setting up camp too close to the cities.

There are varying degrees to how negatively each clan feels about humans, but don't pretend it isn't a thing or even rare to see.

Well, someone has to offer a counterpoint to balance things out. I like elves as much as the next man, but you look at them with rose tinted glasses.

Well, let's look at what we've seen. Of the Dalish clans who've appeared in the series thus far, we have one that was outright xenophobic (Virnehn), one that was actively unpleasant towards approaching humans (Sabrae), one that was cautious (Zathrian's), one that was pretty welcoming (the Exalted Plains one), and two that we haven't seen outright, but who appear to be fairly pro-human-coexistence from external sources (Velanna's and Lavellan). Which gives us one out of six that are likely to harm/kill you for being human, a ratio that I believe would compare favorably to the number of human governments with anti-elven policies.

[LobselVith8]

The Dalish - by the very nature of their beliefs - vilify an entire race of men women and children as plague bearing vermin while dreaming of the day they'll be able to create their racially pure utopia.

 

It was thought that humans caused the quickening that lead to them becoming mortal. We also had Gaider saying that the Dalish seemed to live longer the more generations they stayed away from humans.

 

I wouldn't really bring up the point of Dalish tolerance were I in your position.

 

Of course you don't - you also think the Dalish are racist because the developers decided that the children of humans and elves are human, even though it makes absolutely no sense to blame the Dalish for how the developers decided to establish the lore.​

 

The commonly held Dalish view is certainly more racist than the commonly held human one - whether the Dalish are inclined to be worse to humans versus vice versa is hard to say since the two groups have little connection. We have evidence of violence in both sides.

 

It's more racist to think that humans caused the quickening than it is to think that elves are "less than people" (as Duncan said of human bigotry against elves)?

[Steelcan]

Well, let's look at what we've seen. Of the Dalish clans who've appeared in the series thus far, we have one that was outright xenophobic (Virnehn), one that was actively unpleasant towards approaching humans (Sabrae), one that was cautious (Zathrian's), one that was pretty welcoming (the Exalted Plains one), and two that we haven't seen outright, but who appear to be fairly pro-human-coexistence from external sources (Velanna's and Lavellan). Which gives us one out of six that are likely to harm/kill you for being human, a ratio that I believe would compare favorably to the number of human governments with anti-elven policies.

Well that ratio would hold water f we knew the positions of all clans everywhere.  After all comparing a partial sample to a whole one can't really be considered valid.  We have no way of knowing how many clans fall into which category that we've seen.

[Xilizhra]

Well that ratio would hold water f we knew the positions of all clans everywhere.  After all comparing a partial sample to a whole one can't really be considered valid.  We have no way of knowing how many clans fall into which category that we've seen.

Which would in turn make saying anything sweeping about the Dalish being hostile nil.

[LobselVith8]

Well, let's look at what we've seen. Of the Dalish clans who've appeared in the series thus far, we have one that was outright xenophobic (Virnehn), one that was actively unpleasant towards approaching humans (Sabrae), one that was cautious (Zathrian's), one that was pretty welcoming (the Exalted Plains one), and two that we haven't seen outright, but who appear to be fairly pro-human-coexistence from external sources (Velanna's and Lavellan). Which gives us one out of six that are likely to harm/kill you for being human, a ratio that I believe would compare favorably to the number of human governments with anti-elven policies.

 

We also know that Clan Sabrae was dealing with threats of violence from local Andrastians to convert to the Andrastian faith, and the clan didn't outright kill the templars who tortured a child to try and extract information but simply demanded that they leave the clan alone.

[In Exile]

It was thought that humans caused the quickening that lead to them becoming mortal. We also had Gaider saying that the Dalish seemed to live longer the more generations they stayed away from humans.

 

That's what makes it racist. The Dalish had no evidence for this (now known to be false) belief, apart from spurious correlation (and an insidious fraudster in Zathrian). If you're going to believe incredibly racist things without any evidence, then... yeah, you're a racist. If your entire culture is based around a super racist idea without any credible factual support, you've got a pretty racist culture. 

 

Of course you don't - you also think the Dalish are racist because the developers decided that the children of humans and elves are human, even though it makes absolutely no sense to blame the Dalish for how the developers decided to establish the lore.​

 

No. We have this debate every time. I think anyone who advocates for a moral duty to breed a certain way to preserve racial purity is a racist, because they're obviously doing it for racist reasons. This is quite literally what white supremacists believe IRL - that the white "race" is being diluted. Every elf has the right to determine - for themselves - whether they think the identity of being an elf, culturally or racially, has any value worth preserving in the future. Anyone who advocates for a moral duty to interbreed is just advocating for racism. 

 

There's no Dalish view on this as far as I know - it would certainly be racist if they thought that elves had a moral imperative to breed more elves, but there's no evidence they believe that sort of nonsense (see e.g. Merrill). The only time you and I talked about this as far as I can recall is in the context of the Dales closing their border to maintain a racially pure utopia, which is obviously racist. 

 

It's more racist to think that humans caused the quickening than it is to think that elves are "less than people" (as Duncan said of human bigotry against elves)?

 

Yeah. Because the Dalish also believe that too, on top of this extra super racist stuff. From the codex Entry Arlathan: Part Two (in-setting, an excerpt from "The Fall of Arlathan, as told by Gisharel, Keeper of the Ralaferin clan of the Dalish elves"):

 

Whatever the case, Arlathan had fallen to the very humans our people had once considered mere pests. It is said that the Tevinter magisters used their great destructive power to force the very ground to swallow Arlathan whole, destroying eons of collected knowledge, culture, and art. The whole of elven lore left only to memory.

[LobselVith8]

That's what makes it racist. The Dalish had no evidence for this (now known to be false) belief, apart from spurious correlation (and an insidious fraudster in Zathrian). If you're going to believe incredibly racist things without any evidence, then... yeah, you're a racist. If your entire culture is based around a super racist idea without any credible factual support, you've got a pretty racist culture. 

 

That would only be applicable if the quickening was used to denigrate humanity as a whole as part of their belief system, but it clearly isn't. We know that the Dalish signed a treaty to aid the Grey Wardens during a time of Blight (despite having no incentive to do so when they already lost their homeland and were criminals because of their religion), Merrill shows concern for humans on numerous occasions (like the Ferelden refugees and the Starkhaven Circle mages), and Clan Lavellan went out of their way to save the poisoned humans of Wycome.

 

Perhaps we should consider that the historical Aveline was adopted by a clan, or how Hall was also adopted by one of the clans when he was a child and couldn't fend for himself? Your attempts to vilify an entire population of men, women, and children, once again, has no merit.

 

No. We have this debate every time. I think anyone who advocates for a moral duty to breed a certain way to preserve racial purity is a racist, because they're obviously doing it for racist reasons. This is quite literally what white supremacists believe IRL - that the white "race" is being diluted. Every elf has the right to determine - for themselves - whether they think the identity of being an elf, culturally or racially, has any value worth preserving in the future. Anyone who advocates for a moral duty to interbreed is just advocating for racism. 

 

We've discussed this plenty of times. The developers have said, time and again, that the children of humans and elves are human. That's not something that a fictional race decided on, that's something the developers decided on.

 

As for the Dalish, they live in clans and pretty much live outside human society because their religion was outlawed and Andrastian humans attack them if they stay too long in one area. The only Dalish we know who live in relative peace with humans are the ones who live in the semi-permanent settlement outside of Llomerryn. The majority of the clans live separately as a matter of survival.

 

Yeah. Because the Dalish also believe that too, on top of this extra super racist stuff. From the codex Entry Arlathan: Part Two (in-setting, an excerpt from "The Fall of Arlathan, as told by Gisharel, Keeper of the Ralaferin clan of the Dalish elves"):

 

Whatever the case, Arlathan had fallen to the very humans our people had once considered mere pests. It is said that the Tevinter magisters used their great destructive power to force the very ground to swallow Arlathan whole, destroying eons of collected knowledge, culture, and art. The whole of elven lore left only to memory.

 

So the Dalish are racist because their ancestors viewed them as pests? That's like saying modern humans support blood magic because of what their ancestors thought.

[sniper_arrow]

Has there been an official count of Dalish clans roaming around Thedas?

[Xilizhra]

No. We have this debate every time. I think anyone who advocates for a moral duty to breed a certain way to preserve racial purity is a racist, because they're obviously doing it for racist reasons. This is quite literally what white supremacists believe IRL - that the white "race" is being diluted. Every elf has the right to determine - for themselves - whether they think the identity of being an elf, culturally or racially, has any value worth preserving in the future. Anyone who advocates for a moral duty to interbreed is just advocating for racism. 

 

There's no Dalish view on this as far as I know - it would certainly be racist if they thought that elves had a moral imperative to breed more elves, but there's no evidence they believe that sort of nonsense (see e.g. Merrill). The only time you and I talked about this as far as I can recall is in the context of the Dales closing their border to maintain a racially pure utopia, which is obviously racist.

Culturally, yes. Racially, no. One's status as an elf or not is a matter of fact, that can be tested by, for instance, an individual's reaction to the Crossroads; Michel, for instance, perceived it as colorless and experienced disorientation in the manner of a nonelf, because he's wholly human.

[LobselVith8]

Has there been an official count of Dalish clans roaming around Thedas?

 

No. I don't imagine there would be one, given their nomadic lifestyle.

[Qun00]

You're already well aware that I've addressed the misdeeds of Dalish elves like Zathrian, Velanna, Marethari (of Clan Sabrae), and Thelhen (of Clan Virnehn) in the past. You're the one who generalized an entire ethnic group of people, and you've done so even before I returned to the forums a few days ago.

We routinely discuss the many flaws in Orlesian society, as well as Tevinter and Par Vollen. Meanwhile, you will only acknowledge the mistakes of the Dalish as individuals and never what is wrong with them as a group.

Naturally, not every elf is the same. But that can also be said of the people in other nations of Thedas and yet we still discuss the negative points that stay consistent in their culture.

And as I said before, I believe I've acknowledged the variety in the clans more than you did. While you only see a multitude of clan Lavellans, I see the different degrees.

For instance, clan Virnehn (TME) represents the worst the Dalish can be: Their warleader brags about how they either kill humans if they're in a hurry or torture them if they got time to spare.

At the other end of the spectrum we have clan Lavellan, which harbors no hatred and merely wishes for peace.

And finally, there are clans that are somethings inbetween, like clan Sabrae. They definitely don't like humans, but still can be reasoned with.

[Xilizhra]

We routinely discuss the many flaws in Orlesian society, as well as Tevinter and Par Vollen. Meanwhile, you will only acknowledge the mistakes of the Dalish as individuals and never what is wrong with them as a group.

Naturally, not every elf is the same. But that can also be said of the people in other nations of Thedas and yet we still discuss the negative points that stay consistent in their culture.

And as I said before, I believe I've acknowledged the variety in the clans more than you did. While you only see a multitude of clan Lavellans, I see the different degrees.

For instance, clan Virnehn (TME) represents the worst the Dalish can be: Their warleader brags about how they either kill humans if they're in a hurry or torture them if they got time to spare.

At the other end of the spectrum we have clan Lavellan, which harbors no hatred and merely wishes for peace.

And finally, there are clans that are somethings inbetween, like clan Sabrae. They definitely don't like humans, but still can be reasoned with.

I consider it noteworthy that the Dalish don't have nearly the established pattern of systematic violence that Orlais, Tevinter and the Qun do.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

No. I don't imagine there would be one, given their nomadic lifestyle.

They'd have to know how many clans there are. Or at least how many there are supposed to be. I imagine its hard to enter/leave the Arlathvhen without some kind of roll call.

[Qun00]

I consider it noteworthy that the Dalish don't have nearly the established pattern of systematic violence that Orlais, Tevinter and the Qun do.

Now, now, it isn't a competition.

[Steelcan]

I consider it noteworthy that the Dalish don't have nearly the established pattern of systematic violence that Orlais, Tevinter and the Qun do.

only because they were cut short after they tried their hand at expansionism

 

afterwards they could ill afford such actions

[LobselVith8]

We routinely discuss the many flaws in Orlesian society, as well as Tevinter and Par Vollen. Meanwhile, you will only acknowledge the mistakes of the Dalish as individuals and never what is wrong with them as a group.

Naturally, not every elf is the same. But that can also be said of the people in other nations of Thedas and yet we still discuss the negative points that stay consistent in their culture.

 

I don't quantify an ethnic group of people being the same as a nation or kingdom.

 

And as I said before, I believe I've acknowledged the variety in the clans more than you did. While you only see a multitude of clan Lavellans, I see the different degrees.

 

I've only noticed you vilifying the Dalish, which is why I mentioned earlier in this thread (a few pages back) that it seemed like you hated them, particularly as I found it odd since this is supposed to be a thread for fans of the elves.

 

For instance, clan Virnehn (TME) represents the worst the Dalish can be: Their warleader brags about how they either kill humans if they're in a hurry or torture them if they got time to spare.

 

I've already mentioned Keeper Thelhen of Clan Virnehn, so I don't see how you can claim I haven't addressed Virnehn in the past. Honestly, the warleader pretty much seems to exist as an excuse to make Michel look good in comparison, and he's a rather cartoonish villain, so I tend to forget about him. I prefer antagonists to be more three-dimensional, like Loghain, Zathrian, or even Velanna when we initially encounter her, rather than Saturday Morning Cartoons like the warleader (who doesn't even have an actual name).

[Qun00]

You cannot evade this with the dictionary differences between a nation and a race. They still are a collection of people with common customs and beliefs that give them a shared identity.

And no, you mentioned a single individual, not the flaws in Dalish culture. As for your personal taste in fictional characters, that is completely irrelevant.

[Xilizhra]

Now, now, it isn't a competition.

I'm just saying that while the Dalish are flawed, they're not as flawed.

[Reznore57]

Elves and humans tend to like to throw rocks at each others , mind you of course not everyone ...but there is tension between the two .

Problem is with the violence and oppression , the humans have the upper hand simply because the humans since they met elves (at least from the vague recorded history) have been in a position of power , and were able to crush elves.

We've got the Dales vs Orlais , where both nations weren't that brilliant at diplomacy , and for strange reasons the Dales fought the Orlesian Empire when they had zero allies .

We'll never know how gracious (or not)  the elves would be if they were the one in power .