1599 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Ahh, so if I am ever wronged by a black man it would be perfectly reasonable to call him a ******.

You have the power differential backwards. It's more like calling a white guy a honky.

[Qun00]

I don't categorize people by race.

A morally wrong behavior isn't better or worse depending on whom it is done against. It is just wrong.

[Iakus]

You have the power differential backwards. It's more like calling a white guy a honky.

doesn't exactly make it better.

 

Racism is racism.

[Xilizhra]

I don't categorize people by race.

That seems deeply improbable. Racial categorization, be it conscious or unconscious, is nearly a constant within the human race. I have my doubts that you're a unicorn.

 

 

A morally wrong behavior isn't better or worse depending on whom it is done against. It is just wrong.

Hardly. For instance, stealing $100 is far worse if you do it from a person who lives in poverty, as opposed to if you do it to a millionaire.The immorality of a given action is determined by the effect upon the victim, not the action of the perpetrator.

 

 

doesn't exactly make it better.

 

Racism is racism.

The question comes, then: what is the amount of harm suffered by Hawke, and what's the proportion of it to the harm suffered by Merrill?

[Iakus]

 

The question comes, then: what is the amount of harm suffered by Hawke, and what's the proportion of it to the harm suffered by Merrill?

The harm to Hawke is being called a racist slur.  Whether Hawke takes offense or not, that is not okay.

 

The harm to Merrill depends on your point of view.  On one hand, she is being denied a tool which she could use to repair an eluvian and possibly restore a piece of lost elvhen lore.

 

Or she is being saved from her self-destructive spiral of blood magic and obsession which an artifact that has already killed two of her fellow clan.

 

Keep in mind, I'm a Merrill fan, and even I can see this.

[Xilizhra]

The harm to Hawke is being called a racist slur.  Whether Hawke takes offense or not, that is not okay.

 

The harm to Merrill depends on your point of view.  On one hand, she is being denied a tool which she could use to repair an eluvian and possibly restore a piece of lost elvhen lore.

 

Or she is being saved from her self-destructive spiral of blood magic and obsession which an artifact that has already killed two of her fellow clan.

 

Keep in mind, I'm a Merrill fan, and even I can see this.

How fannish can one be while attempting to dictate the course of the other person's life?

[Qun00]

That seems deeply improbable. Racial categorization, be it conscious or unconscious, is nearly a constant within the human race. I have my doubts that you're a unicorn.


Hardly. For instance, stealing $100 is far worse if you do it from a person who lives in poverty, as opposed to if you do it to a millionaire.The immorality of a given action is determined by the effect upon the victim, not the action of the perpetrator.


The question comes, then: what is the amount of harm suffered by Hawke, and what's the proportion of it to the harm suffered by Merrill?

No, I am not immune to it. But I don't go out of my way to spread the notion that we should judge one's actions according to their race and gender.

Incorrect. What matters is the objectively verified effect upon the victim. It isn't presumed greater because of what s/he was born as.

Apples and oranges here. Hawke was the target of a racial slur and Merrill had her project thwarted by his intervention.

Both have reason to be upset.

[Xilizhra]

Incorrect. What matters is the objectively verified effect upon the victim. It isn't presumed greater because of what s/he was born as.

This is exactly what I said.

[Iakus]

How fannish can one be while attempting to dictate the course of the other person's life?

Heck I support regaining lost knowledge and ultimately support the mages against Meredith.

 

But there are limits.  Some rewards come at too high a cost.  And blood magic has shown over and over to be one of those things

 

She can lead her life as she chooses.  But I will not hand a heroin addict a needle.

[Qun00]

No, you said we will know what is worse based on what they are. What if the poor person only lost a single cent?

And of course, damage isn't always as easily quantified as money.

[Xilizhra]

Heck I support regaining lost knowledge and ultimately support the mages against Meredith.

 

But there are limits.  Some rewards come at too high a cost.  And blood magic has shown over and over to be one of those things

 

She can lead her life as she chooses.  But I will not hand a heroin addict a needle.

So, aside from the fact that your heroin analogy is about as useful as a skeleton's penis, why did you agree to get the knife in the first place?

 

 

No, you said we will know what is worse based on what they are. What if the poor person only lost a single cent?

And of course, damage isn't always as easily quantified as money.

Is that what I said?

 

The immorality of a given action is determined by the effect upon the victim, not the action of the perpetrator.

Huh. Looks like it wasn't.

[LobselVith8]

Even sweet Merrill's prejudice can surface when pushed. If Hawke refuses to give her the arulin'holm, she says "You're just a shemlen like all the others!"

 

Shemlen means human to the Dalish. You're thinking of the derogatory slang term 'shem'. Gaider also said shemlen means human to the Dalish: 'City elves, meanwhile, use some of the words like "shemlen" or "vhenadahl" because that's become part of their lexicon -- but ask the average elf what those words actually mean and they probably wouldn't be able to tell you. "Shemlen" is "human" to them, but not "quick children".'

[Iakus]

So, aside from the fact that your heroin analogy is about as useful as a skeleton's penis, why did you agree to get the knife in the first place?

 

Given Merrill's obsession, the comparison is not entirely without merit.

 

 

I agreed to go with her when she asks for it.  Because I don't want to see her get hurt.  Either by demons of a Varteral.  Marethari gives the knife to Hawke instead of Merrill (because reasons.)  That's when Hawke gets drawn into this Dalish thing.

[Iakus]

Shemlen means human to the Dalish. You're thinking of the derogatory slang term 'shem'. Gaider also said shemlen means human to the Dalish: 'City elves, meanwhile, use some of the words like "shemlen" or "vhenadahl" because that's become part of their lexicon -- but ask the average elf what those words actually mean and they probably wouldn't be able to tell you. "Shemlen" is "human" to them, but not "quick children".'

"Shemlen" is pretty clearly meant o be a slur.  It's only really used when an elf is insulting or otherwise trying to get a rise out of a human"

[LobselVith8]

"Shemlen" is pretty clearly meant o be a slur.  It's only really used when an elf is insulting or otherwise trying to get a rise out of a human"

 

If 'shemlen' was meant to be a slur, there were be no point in having a derogatory slang version of it. Even Gaider points out that 'shemlen' means 'human' to the Dalish. This whole line of discussion is pointless because Qun is wrong about what 'shemlen' means.

[jlb524]

Given Merrill's obsession, the comparison is not entirely without merit.


I agreed to go with her when she asks for it. Because I don't want to see her get hurt. Either by demons of a Varteral. Marethari gives the knife to Hawke instead of Merrill (because reasons.) That's when Hawke gets drawn into this Dalish thing.

Yeah, Marethari broke the Dalish right Merrill invoked to get the knife. Hawke is an ass going along with that.

[LobselVith8]

Given Merrill's obsession, the comparison is not entirely without merit.

 

Merrill is focused on trying to help the People in the same way that Hawke is focused on venturing into the Deep Roads to become wealthy. Merrill wants to bring an end to the plight of the Elvhen while Hawke wants money. And yet only Merrill gets derided for her goals in trying to help the elves of Thedas while people give Hawke a pass for endangering people who accompany him so that he can get hypothetical riches.

[Xilizhra]

Given Merrill's obsession, the comparison is not entirely without merit.

Then we'll have to disagree, because I see no merit whatsoever. In fact, I see negative merit. It has so little merit that putting it next to the Dalai Lama would screw up his reincarnation.

 

 

I agreed to go with her when she asks for it.  Because I don't want to see her get hurt.  Either by demons of a Varteral.  Marethari gives the knife to Hawke instead of Merrill (because reasons.)  That's when Hawke gets drawn into this Dalish thing.

So, Marethari engages in her betrayal/gross violation of Dalish law, so why does that give you the right to?

[Steelcan]

Even I gave Merrill the dagger

[Ghost Gal]

How paternalistic many of these self-proclaimed Merrill fans are. 

[Steelcan]

How paternalistic many of these self-proclaimed Merrill fans are. 

I can see why some Hawkes would take a paternalistic attitude towards her. That doesn't mean the players who take those options are any less fans if her than others.

[LobselVith8]

How paternalistic many of these self-proclaimed Merrill fans are. 

 

I don't see how Hawke is even in a position to criticize Merrill; he doesn't know about the plight of the elves, about the culture or trials and tribulations of the Dalish, about the lore of the Eluvians (that Merrill has studied as part of her efforts to construct her own Eluvian). It's that old trope where 'human knows best' even when said human is completely ignorant about said culture.

 

Of course, Briala's story proves that Merrill was correct about how useful the Eluvians could be to the elves, so this is a moot point.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Hey all. You all are super fans of Elves.

 

I've played all three games, read most of the books, including WoT 1 and 2. So, it's not like I'm ignorant of most of the information about elves. But man, am I having a hard time role playing one.

 

My first time roleplaying one in Inquisition was pretty terrible and all over the place. I was shooting for some sort of non traditional Dalish Elf Quiz to romance Solas. I gave up on her, and now I'm forming a second attempt, except this time I figured I'd let her be Traditional. But apparently I got it in my head that traditional means racist and hates all humans. I don't really want to play that kind of Elf either. I'm also disappointed in myself that I can't seem to form anything but watered down human with pointy ears or racist angry elf. I've played exactly one City Elf Warden rather successfully/happily, why do I fail so hard at the Dalish? Is there some reading material I'm missing? Maybe some of you can tell me about your Dalish Elf Quizes so I can see more forms of them?

 

This seems to be your problem. Playing a different race is never going to give you a SUPER different experience, but it's not that hard to play a traditional Dalish Elf. You don't have to hate humans or hate the Chantry (although you could), you just have to affirm you believe in the Creators and your people's culture. Dalish will likely value the freedom to live how they please and take pride in being able to keep what is left of their history alive because of it. But you get to decide in your conversation with Josephine just how just how happy you were in your clan and how often humans threatened them. Sorrow for your lost past would also be a major underlying emotion of a Dalish character, in both ruins of the Dales and ruins of the Elvhenan.

 

They presumably aren't going to be fans of Chantry restrictions on magic users (especially with the occasional but real threat of templars), but that also doesn't necessarily mean they'd be super gung-ho about supporting the Mage Rebellion either. I played my female Dalish Mage like someone who doesn't hold being a mage a significant part of her personal identity. Magic was what she could do, A Dalish Elf was who she was. As such, she told Fiona that they have nothing in common. She also wasn't happy with the whole rebellion thing because the Mage-Templar War endangered not only her own clan, but countless innocents across Thedas. 

 

Dealing with Dalish mages isn't exactly high on templars list of priorities, but the potential danger is always there for the clans. I decided she'd see Templars are wrong-headed and misguided enemies, but one that she could as least respect their motives. So in theory she could have picked either Champions of the Just or In Hushed Whispers. But I am definitely going for the latter with her.Although, again you could just flat out hate or resent Templars.

 

I also decided she'd have a particular resentment of Tevinter, which Dorian and later revelations will slowly begin to chip away at. Fortunately the plot of In Hushed Whispers is sufficiently terrifying that she'd be grateful enough to him for getting her out of there that she'd overlook her attitude and let him stay.

 

Given how angry my Lavellan was at Fiona for selling her people to a Tevinter magister, I probably would have Conscripted the Mages if it wasn't for the fact that I kinda wanted Divine Leliana on that playthrough. 

[Iakus]

Merrill is focused on trying to help the People in the same way that Hawke is focused on venturing into the Deep Roads to become wealthy. Merrill wants to bring an end to the plight of the Elvhen while Hawke wants money. And yet only Merrill gets derided for her goals in trying to help the elves of Thedas while people give Hawke a pass for endangering people who accompany him so that he can get hypothetical riches.

And Meredith is focused on protecting Kirkwall from magical abuses

Loghain was focused on preventing another Orlesian invasion

Anders was focused on mage freedom

 

It's entirely possible to take a noble goal too far.

 

Hawke only "endangers" people who freely choose to follow in these hilarious hijinks.  Merrill puts the entire clan at risk.  Thus why she was exiled.

 

Then we'll have to disagree, because I see no merit whatsoever. In fact, I see negative merit. It has so little merit that putting it next to the Dalai Lama would screw up his reincarnation.

 

 

So, Marethari engages in her betrayal/gross violation of Dalish law, so why does that give you the right to?

I'll admit, that comparison made me smile

 

Hawke is not Dalish.  this tradition or law or whatever does not concern him or her.  Thus Hawke is free to do with the knife what he/she wishes

 

I don't see how Hawke is even in a position to criticize Merrill; he doesn't know about the plight of the elves, about the culture or trials and tribulations of the Dalish, about the lore of the Eluvians (that Merrill has studied as part of her efforts to construct her own Eluvian). It's that old trope where 'human knows best' even when said human is completely ignorant about said culture.

 

Of course, Briala's story proves that Merrill was correct about how useful the Eluvians could be to the elves, so this is a moot point.

This isn't necessarily about elven culture or lore.  Or even the Dalish.  It is about one elf:  Merrill.  Hawke doesn't have to be an elf to see how following blood magic is hurting Merrill and her clan.  Is Merrill's life/sanity worth the possibility of an artifact being repaired?  Is Merrill's clan?  Is Kirkwall?

[Xilizhra]

Hawke is not Dalish.  this tradition or law or whatever does not concern him or her.  Thus Hawke is free to do with the knife what he/she wishes

So, only aiding and abetting Marethari in doing so? Regardless of legal niceties, it makes Hawke a colossal dick.