So, only aiding and abetting Marethari in doing so? Regardless of legal niceties, it makes Hawke a colossal dick.
Depends on the reasoning.
If you're doing it just to troll Merrill, or score a free Dalish artifact, then yeah.
But if you are genuinely concerned about Merrill's physical or mental well-being, as well as the safety of Kirkwall in general, then it's being prudent.
Hawke only "endangers" people who freely choose to follow in these hilarious hijinks. Merrill puts the entire clan at risk. Thus why she was exiled.
No, Merrill doesn't, and Merrill left the clan; Marethari kept telling her that she was welcome to return as long as she abandoned her attempts to build the Eluvian, but Merrill declined her offers. Marethari claimed that Merrill would bring back the taint in Acts I and II, which we already know isn't true because she successfully cleansed the shard. Then Marethari said Audacity would escape through the restored Eluvian and set the spirit free, turning into an abomination who then tried to kill Merrill. I see a flaw in Marethari's logic.
This isn't necessarily about elven culture or lore. Or even the Dalish. It is about one elf: Merrill. Hawke doesn't have to be an elf to see how following blood magic is hurting Merrill and her clan. Is Merrill's life/sanity worth the possibility of an artifact being repaired? Is Merrill's clan? Is Kirkwall?
Blood magic isn't hurting Merrill; in fact, she's one of the notable people who doesn't succumb to Kirkwall being a Tevinter Hellmouth. Merrill's sanity isn't at risk. Clan Sabrae has nothing to do with Merrill because she chose to leave the clan to pursue her goal in building an Eluvian.
Depends on the reasoning.
If you're doing it just to troll Merrill, or score a free Dalish artifact, then yeah.
But if you are genuinely concerned about Merrill's physical or mental well-being, as well as the safety of Kirkwall in general, then it's being prudent.
No, I disagree. It's letting paranoia and paternalism turn you into a dick.
But if you are genuinely concerned about Merrill's physical or mental well-being, as well as the safety of Kirkwall in general, then it's being prudent.
Who better to tell Merrill about whether or not trying to save her people is worth it than someone who is completely ignorant about her people and her culture, eh? Considering that Merrill has studied the lore on the Eluvians while Hawke knows next to nothing about them, I'd be more inclined to trust her judgement than his ignorance on the matter.
No, Merrill doesn't, and Merrill left the clan; Marethari kept telling her that she was welcome to return as long as she abandoned her attempts to build the Eluvian, but Merrill declined her offers. Marethari claimed that Merrill would bring back the taint in Acts I and II, which we already know isn't true because she successfully cleansed the shard. Then Marethari said Audacity would escape through the restored Eluvian and set the spirit free, turning into an abomination who then tried to kill Merrill. I see a flaw in Marethari's logic.
She was trying to rebuild the eluvian with blood magic. That she learned from a demon.
We also only have Merrill's word that the shard was cleaned. Plus we know the last time the eluvian was opened it led to some seriously blighted location that tainted both Tamlen and Mahariel. So fears fo the taint aren't unfounded either.
Given Audacity did in fact possess Marethari there was clearly a valid concern there too.
Blood magic isn't hurting Merrill; in fact, she's one of the notable people who doesn't succumb to Kirkwall being a Tevinter Hellmouth. Merrill's sanity isn't at risk. Clan Sabrae has nothing to do with Merrill because she chose to leave the clan to pursue her goal in building an Eluvian.
Blood Magic in a Tevinter Hellmouth right there puts Merrill in extreme risk. Heck, non-blood mages are a pretty-high risk population!
No, I disagree. It's letting paranoia and paternalism turn you into a dick.
Is "paternalism" some new buzzword for "intervening when someone you care about is doing something stupidly dangerous"? like it's a bad thing?
Kirkwall is absolutely infested with demons and blood magic (And Templars that see demons and blood magic everywhere) . Merrill may already have been influenced once by a pride demon.
I sympathize with trying to get lost elven lore back. But this is, well, stupidly dangerous.
Who better to tell Merrill about whether or not trying to save her people is worth it than someone who is completely ignorant about her people and her culture, eh? Considering that Merrill has studied the lore on the Eluvians while Hawke knows next to nothing about them, I'd be more inclined to trust her judgement than his ignorance on the matter.
It's not about saving her people. It's about protecting Merrill. And Kirkwall.
Merrill's studied the Eluvians while Hawke hasn't. but Merrill's own Keeper says what she's doing is too dangerous.
Is "paternalism" some new buzzword for "intervening when someone you care about is doing something stupidly dangerous"? like it's a bad thing?
For the love of ****, nothing magically bad ever happens to Merrill because of the Eluvian. Claims of its inherent danger are themselves proof of the aforementioned paranoia. And no, "paternalism" in this context means "taking control of other peoples' lives because you fear research into a field of which you are completely ignorant."
There is not, and there will never be, a legitimate or morally acceptable reason for stealing the arulin'holm. In my opinion.
For the love of ****, nothing magically bad ever happens to Merrill because of the Eluvian. Claims of its inherent danger are themselves proof of the aforementioned paranoia. And no, "paternalism" in this context means "taking control of other peoples' lives because you fear research into a field of which you are completely ignorant."
There is not, and there will never be, a legitimate or morally acceptable reason for stealing the arulin'holm.
Just because nothing bad happened to Merrill doesn't mean she wasn't in great danger and got very, very lucky. Look a the last two elves that messed with it. Look at what Audacity ended up doing. Imagine what else could have come through and wreaked havoc on Kirkwall.
Also Maretheri gave the arulin'holm to Hawke to do with as you wish. It was not stolen. If anyone slighted Merrill, it was her.
Just as a side note, Hawke could just deny her the Arulin'holm because he's rivals with her and wants a consistent story. I made the mistake of letting her guilt me into giving it to her, but since I then Max out her rivalry by destroying the Evil Tomes, it seems that meant I retroactively did not give her when I talked to her next. As such there was this really awkward disconnect between conversations.
My Hawke was a blood mage so he's not afraid of stigmatized magic so long as you know what you are doing. He's not even opposed to Merril's research into the Eluvians or her desire to create more. What does concern him is Merril's constant association with the Pride Demon to get short cut answers. I brought Merrill with me to save Fenryeil and she turned against me in the Fade. That just affirmed to me that her obsession couldn't be trusted to be conducted in a trustworthy ethical manner. I told her then if she endangered me or Kirkwall I would cut her down and so long as she uses my blade or my magic for protection or to help her on her quests, she has no right to demand that I help her in this self-destructive path.
Just because nothing bad happened to Merrill doesn't mean she wasn't in great danger and got very, very lucky. Look a the last two elves that messed with it. Look at what Audacity ended up doing. Imagine what else could have come through and wreaked havoc on Kirkwall.
Nothing would have, because the Eluvian doesn't link to the Fade. And Audacity didn't do dick; Marethari released Audacity and pulled it into herself. Then Audacity tried to kill Merrill and Hawke, yes, but couldn't have without Marethari. And "the last two elves who messed with it" were screwed by darkspawn taint, which Merrill already accounted for.
Also Maretheri gave the arulin'holm to Hawke to do with as you wish. It was not stolen. If anyone slighted Merrill, it was her.
No, it was Merrill's property as soon as she'd killed the varterral. Marethari stole and redirected it.
She was trying to rebuild the eluvian with blood magic. That she learned from a demon.
Incorrect. Merrill used blood magic to cleanse the shard of the taint. She was building the Eluvian from lore she studied and information she extrapolated from the shard.
We also only have Merrill's word that the shard was cleaned. Plus we know the last time the eluvian was opened it led to some seriously blighted location that tainted both Tamlen and Mahariel. So fears fo the taint aren't unfounded either.
Considering that Merrill isn't a ghoul throughout Dragon Age II or Inquisition while the elves who came into contact with the shards of the corrupted Eluvian in the Elven Ruins became ghouls, I don't see how you can claim the shard still had the taint.
Given Audacity id in fact possess Marethari there was clearly a valid concern there too.
Audacity possessed Marethari because she set the spirit free from the totem, so I don't see how it makes sense to say that this proves that the spirit could have escaped through the restored Eluvian.
I don't see how Hawke is even in a position to criticize Merrill; he doesn't know about the plight of the elves, about the culture or trials and tribulations of the Dalish, about the lore of the Eluvians (that Merrill has studied as part of her efforts to construct her own Eluvian). It's that old trope where 'human knows best' even when said human is completely ignorant about said culture.
Of course, Briala's story proves that Merrill was correct about how useful the Eluvians could be to the elves, so this is a moot point.
Obviously, the Andrastian human who knows nothing about elves except they're servants and laborers who clean his/her cushy mansion (Orana) knows more about elven history, lore, magic, and technology than the Dalish scholar who's been studying these things her whole life.
Funny how Briala's and Solas' Eluvians in TME and DAI vindicate Merrill's view that the Eluvians can be used to help the elven people, but somehow they don't count.
This isn't necessarily about elven culture or lore. Or even the Dalish. It is about one elf: Merrill. Hawke doesn't have to be an elf to see how following blood magic is hurting Merrill and her clan. Is Merrill's life/sanity worth the possibility of an artifact being repaired? Is Merrill's clan? Is Kirkwall?
Nope. Merrill used blood magic on the mirror once, to cleanse the shard of the darkspawn taint that killed Tamlen and Mahariel. Even then, she only used blood magic that one time because Marethari refused to lend magical power to cleanse the shard, and she didn't have access to lyrium at the time.
You could argue that Merrill should have waited to gain access to lyrium or asked other elves, but considering how Marethari poisoned the well by telling other Dalish elves that Merrill was trying to do something dangerous before she could even approach them, and how dangerous it is for apostates to reveal themselves in Kirkwall, one could counter-argue that it would have been more fruitless or dangerous for Merrill to try that way.
Merrill learned how to use blood magic by Audacity without setting it free, and then used blood magic once to cleanse a tainted shard so it was clean and safe again. She then successfully left Audacity where she found it (showing no danger there), and then used regular magic and her own two hands to keep recreating and repairing the mirror for years.
The tool she asks Hawke to bring her after three years is, by all accounts, a simple hand tool that she can use without magic.
Your argument that withholding the Arulin'Holm, a simple woodcarving device, on the grounds that you're trying to discourage her from using blood magic rings hollow, since there's no evidence that she's been using blood magic to repair the mirror after the initial cleanse, and the tool she needs to physically repair the mirror is a physical hand-held tool that doesn't require blood magic.
EDIT: Then again, doesn't Merrill have the blood magic specialization for combat purposes? Any Hawke who brought Merrill along as a companion and let her use blood magic to fight baddies in the name of Hawke making money, but then turned around and says they tried to stop her from restoring the mirror (which she almost never uses blood magic on) in the name of discouraging her from using blood magic on, rings really hollow to me.
Blood Magic in a Tevinter Hellmouth right there puts Merrill in extreme risk. Heck, non-blood mages are a pretty-high risk population!
Yet Merrill remains herself throughout the narrative and even into the story of Inquisition, considering she becomes the de facto hahren to the elves during the Mage-Templar War.
As for blood magic in general, "Nothing inspires as much wild-eyed terror as the Blood Mage. Mages of this type take the raw energy of life and twist it to their own purposes. They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn't limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it's tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."
It's not about saving her people. It's about protecting Merrill. And Kirkwall.
I don't see how Hawke is protecting anyone from a place of ignorance.
Just because nothing bad happened to Merrill doesn't mean she wasn't in great danger and got very, very lucky. Look a the last two elves that messed with it. Look at what Audacity ended up doing. Imagine what else could have come through and wreaked havoc on Kirkwall.
The fact that Merrill cleansed the shard means that Tamlen and Mahariel aren't valid examples since they were corrupted by the darkspawn taint. Also, Audacity isn't a good example when you factor in that Marethari set the spirit free from the totem.
Also Maretheri gave the arulin'holm to Hawke to do with as you wish. It was not stolen. If anyone slighted Merrill, it was her.
In violation of Dalish custom.
I don't see how Hawke is protecting anyone from a place of ignorance.
I'll remind you that Merrill is ignorant too. She doesn't know what or how to fix the eluvians anymore than Hawke does or at what costs. And she's the apprentice, she's not an expert, she's fumbling in the dark. Marethari is the Keeper. She's had more experience with elven lore because as Keeper its her job to know the elven lore.
I'll remind you that Merrill is ignorant too. She doesn't know what or how to fix the eluvians anymore than Hawke does or at what costs. And she's the apprentice, she's not an expert, she's fumbling in the dark. Marethari is the Keeper. She's had more experience with elven lore because as Keeper its her job to know the elven lore.
And completely ignorant in regard to eluvians, as we saw in DAO.
Nothing would have, because the Eluvian doesn't link to the Fade. And Audacity didn't do dick; Marethari released Audacity and pulled it into herself. Then Audacity tried to kill Merrill and Hawke, yes, but couldn't have without Marethari. And "the last two elves who messed with it" were screwed by darkspawn taint, which Merrill already accounted for.
Furthermore, as per Marethari, Audacity isn't in the Fade; the spirit is trapped in a totem in the physical world, and has been since the war between the Arlathan elves and the Tevinter Magisters on the elven ruins of Sundermount. Marethari explains that when she reveals why she didn't simply try to banish the spirit into the Fade.
And completely ignorant in regard to eluvians, as we saw in DAO.
Not ignorant enough to know at the other side was a demon or that it transferred the taint. audancity wasn't the only demon offering knowledge of the eluvians. Remember Imshael? Atleast the keeper Thelhen at Masked Empire wasn't as easily fooled as Merrill.
I'll remind you that Merrill is ignorant too.
Merrill has studied the lore on the Eluvians as part of her efforts to construct the Eluvian while Marethari's own dialogue indicates she's done nothing of the sort, so Merrill is the most informed about Eluvians during this storyline.
She doesn't know what or how to fix the eluvians anymore than Hawke does or at what costs.
Hawke hasn't studied the lore of the Eluvians like Merrill has, so that's not really an apt comparison to make; he doesn't know about the cultures of the Dalish or even elves in general.
And she's the apprentice, she's not an expert, she's fumbling in the dark. Marethari is the Keeper. She's had more experience with elven lore because as Keeper its her job to know the elven lore.
If Marethari indicates that she hasn't looked into the lore of the Eluvians while Merrill has studied the available lore, I don't see why I should take Marethari's word over Merrill's. Marethari pretty much admits she thinks they should let the information about the Eluvians stay buried and not look into it. Her shifting reasons for opposing Merrill's efforts don't make her any more credible.
The whole thing with Jewish people are elves is false and here's why, because their holocaust was never a racial issue but a religious one, what the elves suffered from is a racial issue. And the elves forgotten who they are because of slavery and the aftermath of slavery and oppression. It's similar to African Americans, Afro Caribbeans, and Africans from South America because they are connected with the horrors of the Transatlantic Slave Trade. Similar to the slavery from Tevinter Imperium so to speak and how the horrors of slavery have destroyed their culture, religion, history, and heritage. The Jewish people never forgotten their history, their religious traditions and customs after the holocaust, but the people of African descent have forgotten all of it and suffered effects from the aftermath of slavery. And elves who are still systematically oppresses by human rule by religion, economics, enviromentally, and education that robs them of their elven heritage.Gaider has mentioned Jewish people and Native Americans as the inspiration for elements of elven culture across different areas of the Internet over the years (including the now defunct Dragon Central forum). Is this what you mean? Or have I misunderstood what you were trying to convey?
Modifié par IHaveReturned1999, 08 juillet 2016 - 05:22 .
Not ignorant enough to know at the other side was a demon or that it transferred the taint. audancity wasn't the only demon offering knowledge of the eluvians. Remember Imshael? Atleast the keeper Thelhen at Masked Empire wasn't as easily fooled as Merrill.
Well, the former is outright wrong, and the latter was already dealt with by Merrill.
Not ignorant enough to know at the other side was a demon or that it transferred the taint.
Audacity is trapped in a totem in the physical world. We also see Merrill's Eluvian in the Crossroads, so the idea that it would have lead to someplace tainted also isn't true.
audancity wasn't the only demon offering knowledge of the eluvians. Remember Imshael? Atleast the keeper Thelhen at Masked Empire wasn't as easily fooled as Merrill.
Merrill didn't set Audacity free, so I don't see how Merrill was fooled. Even Marethari never claims that Merrill had any intention of setting the spirit free from the totem; she argued that Audacity would escape through the Eluvian, but the likely source of this information was Audacity because her reasons for opposing Merrill were entirely different in Acts I and II. Marethari is the one who set Audacity free.
The whole thing with Jewish people are elves is false and here's why, because their holocaust was never a racial issue but a religious one,
Oh, that is such unbelievable bullshit. If this was true, any Jew could have escaped the Holocaust by converting.
Merrill has studied the lore on the Eluvians as part of her efforts to construct the Eluvian while Marethari's own dialogue indicates she's done nothing of the sort, so Merrill is the most informed about Eluvians during this storyline.
Hawke hasn't studied the lore of the Eluvians like Merrill has, so that's not really an apt comparison to make; he doesn't know about the cultures of the Dalish or even elves in general.
All information she recieved from a demon. Well My Hawke wasn't manipulated by Torpor despite not having Dalish training. Merrill who did have Dalish training was manipulated. What does that say?
If Marethari indicates that she hasn't looked into the lore of the Eluvians while Merrill has studied the available lore, I don't see why I should take Marethari's word over Merrill's. Marethari pretty much admits she thinks they should let the information about the Eluvians stay buried and not look into it. Her shifting reasons for opposing Merrill's efforts don't make her any more credible.
Perhaps she knows about the Eluvians, as much as it was old magic and that it was dangerous, or at least this one was. I trust her years of experience over what Merrill learned from the school of demon lies.
Nothing would have, because the Eluvian doesn't link to the Fade. And Audacity didn't do dick; Marethari released Audacity and pulled it into herself. Then Audacity tried to kill Merrill and Hawke, yes, but couldn't have without Marethari. And "the last two elves who messed with it" were screwed by darkspawn taint, which Merrill already accounted for.
No, it was Merrill's property as soon as she'd killed the varterral. Marethari stole and redirected it.
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