1599 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Yet Merrill remains herself throughout the narrative and even into the story of Inquisition, considering she becomes the de facto hahren to the elves during the Mage-Templar War.

 

As for blood magic in general, "Nothing inspires as much wild-eyed terror as the Blood Mage. Mages of this type take the raw energy of life and twist it to their own purposes. They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn't limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it's tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."

 

 

And by far the majority of instances of blood magic we (and Hawke) witness lead to madness and death.

 

 

 

I don't see how Hawke is protecting anyone from a place of ignorance.

 

And if Hawke decides to believe Marethari and the entire  clan over one overenthusiastic apprentice?  Is the clan's Keeper in a place of ignorance?

 

 

 

The fact that Merrill cleansed the shard means that Tamlen and Mahariel aren't valid examples since they were corrupted by the darkspawn taint. Also, Audacity isn't a good example when you factor in that Marethari set the spirit free from the totem.

 

 

Why?  The mirror got tainted somehow.  And Audacity was clearly manipulating MErrill to eventually free it

[LobselVith8]

Like blood magic?

 

Merrill explained she used blood magic to cleanse the shard because she lacked the lyrium necessary to power the spell with ordinary magic. Even Gaider doesn't claim she used blood magic to build the Eluvian - he specifies it was the lore she studied and information she extrapolated from the shard.

 

Again, here the mirror leads may be tainted

 

Which is an argument Marethari dropped in Act III, probably because Audacity manipulated her into thinking it would escape through the restored Eluvian (since the spirit would be the only likely source for this information).

 

See my previous response.  It was plotting to get Merrill to free it.  Through the eluvian or not

 

I'm not inclined to blame Merrill for the actions of another person; Marethari is an adult, I'll blame her for her own actions.

[Xilizhra]

Mea culpa, dudette. Like I said, judaism is a religion. You can't convert your race. Re li gee yon.

The Nazis evidently disagreed with you.

 

 

Neither you nor Hawke knows that.

We also have no reason to believe it goes anywhere dangerous.

 

 

And Audacity was planning to do exactly the same thing to Merrill.  She fell for one pride demon's lies already.

Not lies, mind control. For the five billionth time. In any case, which of the two elven mages was on the mountain for seven years, possibly listening to blandishments in dreams?

 

 

Unless the eluvian opened someplace seriously blighted by the taint.  LIke Tamlen did

Completely irrelevant, since that eluvian was destroyed. This is a new eluvian, not a rebuilt one.

 

 

Take it up with Marethari.

I do. Plus everyone who aids and abets her.

 

This entire point is moot anyway, because Merrill will keep working on the damn thing even without the arulin'holm. You may as well help her make the construction less potentially shoddy, no?

[LobselVith8]

All the lives destroyed by freeing Imshael would beg to differ.

 

That's not a demonic invasion. At all. That's a dangerous spirit who was freed by Michel.

[IHaveReturned1999]

The Nazis evidently disagreed with you.

Nazi's aren't very bright.

[Iakus]

 

The tool she asks Hawke to bring her after three years is, by all accounts, a simple hand tool that she can use without magic.

 

Your argument that withholding the Arulin'Holm, a simple woodcarving device, on the grounds that you're trying to discourage her from using blood magic rings hollow, since there's no evidence that she's been using blood magic to repair the mirror after the initial cleanse, and the tool she needs to physically repair the mirror is a physical hand-held tool that doesn't require blood magic.

 

If the Arulin'holm is just a simple tool, why can't Merrill get a similar item in Kirkwall?  Or even ask Hawke (who's rich now) to buy her one?

[LobselVith8]

And by far the majority of instances of blood magic we (and Hawke) witness lead to madness and death.

 

Hawke also saw what the darkspawn corruption did, but that didn't stop him from heading into the Deep Roads so he could find treasure.

 

And if Hawke decides to believe Marethari and the entire  clan over one overenthusiastic apprentice?  Is the clan's Keeper in a place of ignorance?

 

When Marethari admits she doesn't know anything about the Eluvians while Merrill has studied the available lore on them? I'd say yes.

 

Why?  The mirror got tainted somehow.  And Audacity was clearly manipulating MErrill to eventually free it

 

Merrill cleansed the shard of the taint. As you can tell, she isn't a ghoul despite handling it, so it's clearly not corrupted. Also, Marethari freed Audacity, so I don't see how you can claim that Merrill was the one who was being manipulated into setting it free when neither Marethari nor Merrill ever claim she had any plans to directly release the spirit from the totem.

[Steelcan]

Nazi's aren't very bright.

extremely tough talk coming from "white people are inborn with genetic aggression from breeding with neanderthals"

[Ghost Gal]

So Hawke wanted to get rich and give his family a mansion.

 

That's actually a double standard in this series that bothers me.

 

Leandra and Hawke want to escape the slums by moving to a mansion in Hightown, and won't settle for anything less. They want to reclaim ancestral privileges they "lost" (*cough*gaveup*cough*) and endanger themselves and others searching for treasure in the Deep Roads--and they're rewarded for it.

 

Carver himself says at one point that Leandra's chasing ghosts by trying to get back into Hightown, and is endangering the family in her quest to do it. He feels the better course of action would be for them start anew somewhere else, maybe start another farm in the country, but he's dismissed by Hawke. And in the end, Leandra is rewarded for her greed and refusal to settle on less than Hightown.

 

Meanwhile, elven characters who try to "recover the past" are constantly punished for it. Fenris tried to find answers to his past? His sister sold him out, and he "realized" he should forget the past and focus on the present. Merrill tried to recover a lost relic of her people's past? She has her spirit broken by Marethari and gives up on the mirror, focusing on "improving things now" by helping poor alienage elves still stuck in poverty. Briala idealized Arlathan? She "realized" the Dalish and Elvhenan alike are jerks, and decides to focus on political reform today.

 

Leandra refused to settle on anything less than reclaiming her "rightful" place in Hightown (that she chose to give up) because she wouldn't let go of the past, and Hawke risked certain death in the Depp Roads to afford it? The Hawkes were rewarded for their refusal to let go of the past and their vain quest for personal wealth and luxury, and live it up in Hightown for several years.

 

I call bull!

[LobselVith8]

If the Arulin'holm is just a simple tool, why can't Merrill get a similar item in Kirkwall?  Or even ask Hawke (who's rich now) to buy her one?

 

It's an elven tool that belongs to the Dalish. I don't think Kirkwall would have elven tools.

[Steelcan]

That's actually a double standard in this series that bothers me.

 

Leandra and Hawke want to escape the slums by moving to a mansion in Hightown, and won't settle for anything less. They want to reclaim ancestral privileges they "lost" (*cough*gaveup*cough*) and endanger themselves and others searching for treasure in the Deep Roads--and they're rewarded for it.

 

Carver himself says at one point that Leandra's chasing ghosts by trying to get back into Hightown, and is endangering the family in her quest to do it. He feels the better course of action would be for them start anew somewhere else, maybe start another farm in the country, but he's dismissed by Hawke. And in the end, Leandra is rewarded for her greed and refusal to settle on less than Hightown.

 

Meanwhile, elven characters who try to "recover the past" are constantly punished for it. Fenris tried to find answers to his past? His sister sold him out, and he "realized" he should forget the past and focus on the present. Merrill tried to recover a lost relic of her people's past? She has her spirit broken by Marethari and gives up on the mirror, focusing on "improving things now" by helping poor alienage elves still stuck in poverty. Briala idealized Arlathan? She "realized" the Dalish and Elvhenan alike are jerks, and decides to focus on political reform today.

 

Leandra refused to settle on anything less than reclaiming her "rightful" place in Hightown (that she chose to give up) because she wouldn't let go of the past, and Hawke risked certain death in the Depp Roads to afford it? The Hawkes were rewarded for their refusal to let go of the past and their vain quest for personal wealth and luxury, and live it up in Hightown for several years.

 

I call bull!

because some things shouldn't be brought back?

 

Some things aren't worth the effort to bring about?

 

Or because some things are quite literally impossible?

 

The Amells lost their titles and rank through the deceit and incompetence a mere few years back, reclaiming that family mansion is a pretty far distant issue from trying to resurrect long dormant ancient technology, or learning the uncomfortable truth about your own family history.

[sandalisthemaker]

Yet another elven thread devolving into a Merrill argument.

 

While I personally tend to give her the knife, the game does present it as something risky.  We are led to believe that the mirror may unleash something terrible- From Marethari's warnings, the clan's trepidation, the shard previously being tainted, Merrill's communication with the demon, and also the loading screen of Merrill's Eluvian radiating a sinister dark energy.

 

IMO those are solid reasons not to give Merrill the knife. 

[Qun00]

So Hawke wanted to get rich and give his family a mansion.


Their situation isn't remotely comparable to the people living in the Alienage or Darktown.

Indeed. An unnecessary luxury for refugees living in poverty and in danger of getting kicked out anytime because they don't have full citizenship.

Why stop there? "Elves living in alienages have it easy, considering that they aren't Tevinter slaves".

[LobselVith8]

Indeed. An unnecessary luxury for refugees living in poverty and in danger of getting kicked out anytime because they don't have full citizenship.

 

There's no claim that Leandra, Hawke, and Hawke's sibling will be kicked out at any time. As Ghost already pointed out, Carver can provide an alternate plan to becoming rich and reacquiring the Amell manor (that Leandra lost roughly two decades ago since Malcolm and her ran off that long ago), but it's shot down by Hawke.

 

Why stop there? "Elves living in alienages have it easy, cconsidering that they aren't Tevinter slaves".

 

Because the comparison doesn't work when you're talking about Hawke heading into the Deep Roads to become rich and acquire an extravagant mansion, and Hawke, Leandra, and Gamen reside in Lowtown, not Darktown.

[Qun00]

There's no claim that Leandra, Hawke, and Hawke's sibling will be kicked out at any time. As Ghost already pointed out, Carver can provide an alternate plan to becoming rich and reacquiring the Amell manor (that Leandra lost roughly two decades ago since Malcolm and her ran off that long ago), but it's shot down by Hawke.


Because the comparison doesn't work when you're talking about Hawke heading into the Deep Roads to become rich and acquire an extravagant mansion, and Hawke, Leandra, and Gamen reside in Lowtown, not Darktown.

Simply sit through the first 30 seconds.
http://youtu.be/q_eGjjcVgC0


From Lowtown's codex:

"Today, Lowtown is a labyrinth of shantytowns, corridors, and hexagonal courtyards—"hexes" in the local parlance. Lowtown's poorest live in caves hewn out of the cliff face.

The district is shoddily built and bears scars caused by collapsing walls. Foundry smoke smothers the area. Only a cold winter storm clears the air, but the icy wind howling over the mouths of old mineshafts hardly counts as relief."

[LobselVith8]

Carver himself says at one point that Leandra's chasing ghosts by trying to get back into Hightown, and is endangering the family in her quest to do it. He feels the better course of action would be for them start anew somewhere else, maybe start another farm in the country, but he's dismissed by Hawke. And in the end, Leandra is rewarded for her greed and refusal to settle on less than Hightown.

 

 

The district is shoddily built and bears scars caused by collapsing walls. Foundry smoke smothers the area. Only a cold winter storm clears the air, but the icy wind howling over the mouths of old mineshafts hardly counts as relief."

 

Yes, Leandra and Hawke want to become rich and get a mansion in Hightown. I don't think anyone is contesting that. I also don't think we can compare Lowtown to areas like the Alienage or Darktown. Let's not pretend that the only option for the Hawkes was to become rich and reacquire their family mansion.

[Steelcan]

Yes, Leandra and Hawke want to become rich and get a mansion in Hightown. I don't think anyone is contesting that. I also don't think we can compare Lowtown to areas like the Alienage or Darktown. Let's not pretend that the only option for the Hawkes was to become rich and reacquire their family mansion.

I'm confused, are you saying the Hawkes should have accepted their lot in life since other people have it worse?

[Nimlowyn]

Mea culpa, dudette. Like I said, judaism is a religion. You can't convert your race. Re li gee yon.

I am a Jew, and I am here to tell you that you are mistaken. Yes, Judaism is a religion. But to be a Jew encompasses religious AND ethnic identities, which include genetic markers. I recently took a genetic test through National Geographic and my markers for "Jewish diaspora" were zero. If Jewishness did not also encompass race, there would be no genetic markers to test for. 

 

When I converted, I was welcomed as an "adopted daughter" into the tribe. I did not simply convert into a religion, I converted into a peoplehood, with an ethnic identity and a history where constructs of race very MUCH impacted our lives, whether Jewish women tried to erase their Jewish nose through plastic surgery, or Nazis tried to destroy us because we were "defiling" the "racial purity" of the "Aryans". Not all Jews are genetically Jewish, but that does not mean we are not a religio-ethnic amalgam, as I think Xilhra termed it.

 

Also, you said this: "The whole thing with Jewish people are elves is false and here's why, because their holocaust was never a racial issue but a religious one..."  Putting aside the fact that of COURSE the Holocaust was racially motivated...The Jews DID serve as one point of inspiration for the elves. David Gaider confirmed it. The lives of city elves are modeled after the lives of Jews in European ghettos, and the Dalish longing for a homeland is modeled after the Jewish longing for Israel. We have existed as a people for 5000 years, there is much more to us than the Holocaust of the 20th century. 

[Steelcan]

I am a Jew, and I am here to tell you that you are mistaken. Yes, Judaism is a religion. But to be a Jew encompasses religious AND ethnic identities, which include genetic markers. I recently took a genetic test through National Geographic and my markers for "Jewish diaspora" were zero. If Jewishness did not also encompass race, there would be no genetic markers to test for. 

 

When I converted, I was welcomed as an "adopted daughter" into the tribe. I did not simply convert into a religion, I converted into a peoplehood, with an ethnic identity and a history where constructs of race very MUCH impacted our lives, whether Jewish women tried to erase their Jewish nose through plastic surgery, or Nazis tried to destroy us because we were "defiling" the racial purity of the Aryans. Not all Jews are genetically Jewish, but that does not mean we are not an religio-ethnic amalgam, as I think Xilhra termed it.

 

Also, you said this: The whole thing with Jewish people are elves is false and here's why, because their holocaust was never a racial issue but a religious one..."  Putting aside the fact that of COURSE the Holocaust was racially motivated...The Jews DID serve as one point of inspiration for the elves. David Gaider confirmed it. The lives of city elves are modeled after the lives of Jews in European ghettos, and the Dalish longing for a homeland is modeled after the Jewish longing for Israel. We have existed as a people for 5000 years, there is much more to us than the Holocaust of the 20th century. 

don't bother trying to reason with him.  This account is the alt of a known bigot and racist who relishes putting pseudo-scientific nonsense as evidence for his own delusional beliefs.

[Nimlowyn]

don't bother trying to reason with him.  This account is the alt of a known bigot and racist who relishes putting pseudo-scientific nonsense as evidence for his own delusional beliefs.

Maker, I think I know who you're talking about. This would be what, the third account?

 

Thanks for the heads up. I more wanted to clear the air than anything else. It's bad information (and problematic implications) that I couldn't let go. 

[sandalisthemaker]

don't bother trying to reason with him.  This account is the alt of a known bigot and racist who relishes putting pseudo-scientific nonsense as evidence for his own delusional beliefs.

 

 

Maker, I think I know who you're talking about. This would be what, the third account?

 

Thanks for the heads up. I more wanted to clear the air than anything else. It's bad information (and problematic implications) that I couldn't let go. 

 

I've been away for quite some time.  

 

IHaveReturned1999 = N7Phantom? 

[Qun00]

I'm confused, are you saying the Hawkes should have accepted their lot in life since other people have it worse?

I needed a birthday cake but couldn't afford it. Then my friends surprised me with one from Carlos' Bakery.

I immediately told them to return it, because it was better than what I was expecting.

[Steelcan]

I've been away for quite some time.  

 

IHaveReturned1999 = N7Phantom? 

aye

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That's actually a double standard in this series that bothers me.

 

Leandra and Hawke want to escape the slums by moving to a mansion in Hightown, and won't settle for anything less. They want to reclaim ancestral privileges they "lost" (*cough*gaveup*cough*) and endanger themselves and others searching for treasure in the Deep Roads--and they're rewarded for it.

 

Carver himself says at one point that Leandra's chasing ghosts by trying to get back into Hightown, and is endangering the family in her quest to do it. He feels the better course of action would be for them start anew somewhere else, maybe start another farm in the country, but he's dismissed by Hawke. And in the end, Leandra is rewarded for her greed and refusal to settle on less than Hightown.

 

Meanwhile, elven characters who try to "recover the past" are constantly punished for it. Fenris tried to find answers to his past? His sister sold him out, and he "realized" he should forget the past and focus on the present. Merrill tried to recover a lost relic of her people's past? She has her spirit broken by Marethari and gives up on the mirror, focusing on "improving things now" by helping poor alienage elves still stuck in poverty. Briala idealized Arlathan? She "realized" the Dalish and Elvhenan alike are jerks, and decides to focus on political reform today.

 

Leandra refused to settle on anything less than reclaiming her "rightful" place in Hightown (that she chose to give up) because she wouldn't let go of the past, and Hawke risked certain death in the Depp Roads to afford it? The Hawkes were rewarded for their refusal to let go of the past and their vain quest for personal wealth and luxury, and live it up in Hightown for several years.

 

I call bull!

 

If Leandra reclaiming her ancestral home involved blood magic and demons, I think my Hawke would have been equally vociferous in objecting. To be honest, I never really understood why Merrill found the Eluvian so worth all the hassle and danger it took to restore it. She claims it will save her people, but she never really explains what benefits it would provide.

 

Plus it's not like Hawke's opinion on Merril's elven history quest is completely unsupported. He may be an outsider but if he doesn't approve of her actions he has the same opinion as a Dalish Keeper.

[The Ascendant]

How could the Sentinel Elves continue Uthenera after the Veil was erected? Was it because of the Well of Sorrows.