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[Ghost Gal]

If Leandra reclaiming her ancestral home involved blood magic and demons, I think my Hawke would have been equally vociferous in objecting. To be honest, I never really understood why Merrill found the Eluvian so worth all the hassle and danger it took to restore it. She claims it will save her people, but she never really explains what benefits it would provide.

 

Plus it's not like Hawke's opinion on Merril's elven history quest is completely unsupported. He may be an outsider but if he doesn't approve of her actions he has the same opinion as a Dalish Keeper.

 

Leandra was willing to let one or both of her kids risk their lives in the darkspawn-filled Deep Roads, all in the name of getting her own jobless butt into a Hightown mansion. (Sure, she claims she wants to move to Hightown for the safety and security of her family, but that flies out the window the second she let one or both of her kids risk their lives in the Deep Roads for the sake of making money.) 

 

Like I've said many times, Merrill heavily researched the Eluvian before she went to work trying to restore it, so she likely knew, or at least had an inkling of how it could help their people. Morrigan's, Briala's, and Solas' use of their Eluvians only vindicates Merrill's theory. And Merrill's motivation that she reiterates many times is to help her people. Definitely more sympathetic, in my view, than, "You kids need to get rich so we can move into a mansion!"

[Qun00]

You speak as though there was no legitimate need behind it. They were fine as penniless refugees with no full citizenship.

As for Merrill, it is about the methods rather than good intentions.

[LobselVith8]

You speak as though there was no legitimate need behind it. They were fine as penniless refugees with no full citizenship.

As for Merrill, it is about the methods rather than good intentions.

 

We can argue the actual need given that Ghost already brought up that Carver provided an alternative solution that didn't involve venturing into the Deep Roads. However, this is more about the hypocrisy in Hawke getting a pass for going into the Deep Roads for wealth while Merrill is vilified for trying to restore elven technology that could irrevocably benefit the People across Thedas.

[Qun00]

They are quite used to the risks of battle. It isn't like sending farmers to the Deep Roads.

And we may keep talking circles around each other, but I will always emphasize: Hawke did it for the sake of his/her family, which did need help at the time.

I've never heard that "too much money" is a bad solution for financial struggles.

[LobselVith8]

They are quite used to the risks of battle. It isn't like sending farmers to the Deep Roads.

And we may keep talking circles around each other, but I will always emphasize: Hawke did it for the sake of his/her family, which did need help at the time.

 

While Ghost as already pointed out that this wasn't the only course of action they could have taken, given Carver providing an alternative that didn't involve venturing into darkspawn infested Deep Roads.

 

I've never heard that "too much money" is a bad solution for financial struggles.

 

It would say it's an issue of how some people give Hawke a pass for doing something dangerous (that is endangering others in the process) while vilifying Merrill for her construction of the Eluvian; it's hypocritical.

[IHaveReturned1999]

Me personally Merrill is stupid. Because she endangered her people by dabbling in blood magic to activate the eluvian without thinking of the consequences of what harm it would bring upon her tribe. But she's so caught up to her ego and it nearly costs her life, what a stupid girl.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Leandra was willing to let one or both of her kids risk their lives in the darkspawn-filled Deep Roads, all in the name of getting her own jobless butt into a Hightown mansion. (Sure, she claims she wants to move to Hightown for the safety and security of her family, but that flies out the window the second she let one or both of her kids risk their lives in the Deep Roads for the sake of making money.) 

 

Like I've said many times, Merrill heavily researched the Eluvian before she went to work trying to restore it, so she likely knew, or at least had an inkling of how it could help their people. Morrigan's, Briala's, and Solas' use of their Eluvians only vindicates Merrill's theory. And Merrill's motivation that she reiterates many times is to help her people. Definitely more sympathetic, in my view, than, "You kids need to get rich so we can move into a mansion!"

 

Bartrand's expedition wasn't just about a mansion. It was about being able to protect the family from Templars. Hawke was going on it even before Leandra was trying to regain her old house. Second, searching for a way to lift your mother and sibling out of poverty is a noble cause. I still don't understand how Merrill's quest was going to help her clan in any comparable way. Yeah the Hawkes aren't as bad off as some people in Darktown, but the Dalish aren't as bad off as the Casteless. That doesn't invalidate the idea of trying to improve their conditions.

[LobselVith8]

Bartrand's expedition wasn't just about a mansion. It was about being able to protect the family from Templars. Hawke was going on it even before Leandra was trying to regain her old house. Second, searching for a way to lift your mother and sibling out of poverty is a noble cause.

 

As Ghost already pointed out, heading into the Deep Roads wasn't the only option since Carver provides another alternative, it's simply one that wouldn't have netted them a potential fortune and a mansion.

 

I still don't understand how Merrill's quest was going to help her clan in any comparable way.

 

Briala uses the Eluvians to help the elves of Orlais, so we already have one example of how this technology can be utilized, and Merrill wanted to help the People - not simply one clan.

 

Yeah the Hawkes aren't as bad off as some people in Darktown, but the Dalish aren't as bad off as the Casteless. That doesn't invalidate the idea of trying to improve their conditions.

 

I'd say that the Dalish having to be nomadic as a matter of survival warranted someone doing something to try and improve their lives.

[Steelcan]

Leandra was willing to let one or both of her kids risk their lives in the darkspawn-filled Deep Roads, all in the name of getting her own jobless butt into a Hightown mansion. (Sure, she claims she wants to move to Hightown for the safety and security of her family, but that flies out the window the second she let one or both of her kids risk their lives in the Deep Roads for the sake of making money.) 

 

Like I've said many times, Merrill heavily researched the Eluvian before she went to work trying to restore it, so she likely knew, or at least had an inkling of how it could help their people. Morrigan's, Briala's, and Solas' use of their Eluvians only vindicates Merrill's theory. And Merrill's motivation that she reiterates many times is to help her people. Definitely more sympathetic, in my view, than, "You kids need to get rich so we can move into a mansion!"

but Leandra doesn't want both Hawke siblings going into the Deep Roads

[In Exile]

Like I've said many times, Merrill heavily researched the Eluvian before she went to work trying to restore it, so she likely knew, or at least had an inkling of how it could help their people. Morrigan's, Briala's, and Solas' use of their Eluvians only vindicates Merrill's theory. And Merrill's motivation that she reiterates many times is to help her people. Definitely more sympathetic, in my view, than, "You kids need to get rich so we can move into a mansion!"

 

Merrill is completely ignorant about the true purpose of the Eluvian. She seems to think it's a communication tool. That said, it's pretty obvious how instantaneous, real-time communication anywhere in Thedas would be a huge advantage. I'm not really sure why anyone would wonder why - with that information alone - there is any real question why Merrill (or anyone, really) would think rebuilding the Eluvian is helpful.

 

What Solas, Briala and Morrigan do doesn't really vindicate Merrill, because they use them for a totally different purpose - dimension hopping. 

 

And I don't think it's fair to say that Leandra pushes her kids into anything. She's against the sibling going, and she makes it pretty clear she's against Hawke doing it too - just that she understands why Hawke has to do it, at least.

[LobselVith8]

Merrill is completely ignorant about the true purpose of the Eluvian. She seems to think it's a communication tool. That said, it's pretty obvious how instantaneous, real-time communication anywhere in Thedas would be a huge advantage. I'm not really sure why anyone would wonder why - with that information alone - there is any real question why Merrill (or anyone, really) would think rebuilding the Eluvian is helpful.

 

Merrill's dialogue to Aveline indicates that she suspects her Eluvian is capable of more. Given Gaider addressing how she's read lore on the Eluvians, we're really not in a position to determine the extent of her knowledge, although it must be admirable enough to build a new one from a single shard.

[phoray]

Merrill's dialogue to Aveline indicates that she suspects her Eluvian is capable of more. Given Gaider addressing how she's read lore on the Eluvians, we're really not in a position to determine the extent of her knowledge, although it must be admirable enough to build a new one from a single shard.

 

 

I keep reading this single shard business. Isn't she rebuilding the tainted Eluvian that Duncun smashed in Origins? Every other origin that isn't Dalish, you just see this mysterious broken mirror thing, but plenty of glass all around, right?

[LobselVith8]

I keep reading this single shard business. Isn't she rebuilding the tainted Eluvian that Duncun smashed in Origins? Every other origin that isn't Dalish, you just see this mysterious broken mirror thing, but plenty of glass all around, right?

 

Merrill only took a single shard with her from the one in Ferelden; that's the reason the elves who stumble upon the broken Eluvian are ghouls in "Witch Hunt" and how the Warden can grab one of the shards to locate Morrigan. She incorporates that single, cleansed shard into the Eluvian she constructs in Kirkwall.

[phoray]

Merrill only took a single shard with her from the one in Ferelden; that's the reason the elves who stumble upon the broken Eluvian are ghouls in "Witch Hunt" and how the Warden can grab one of the shards to locate Morrigan. She incorporates that single, cleansed shard into the Eluvian she constructs in Kirkwall.

 

 

Wow. But also...no wonder it doesn't friggin work. 

[LobselVith8]

Wow. But also...no wonder it doesn't friggin work.

You can see Merrill's Eluvian in the Crossroads (presumably it's counterpart).

[In Exile]

I keep reading this single shard business. Isn't she rebuilding the tainted Eluvian that Duncun smashed in Origins? Every other origin that isn't Dalish, you just see this mysterious broken mirror thing, but plenty of glass all around, right?

 

She builds it from the ground up. It's pretty clear Merrill is a genius, just unfortunately ignorant of what she's really building. Not so much her fault, when her entire clan is actively sabotaging her. 

 

 

Merrill's dialogue to Aveline indicates that she suspects her Eluvian is capable of more. Given Gaider addressing how she's read lore on the Eluvians, we're really not in a position to determine the extent of her knowledge, although it must be admirable enough to build a new one from a single shard.

 

Right, so "Merrill is completely ignorant about the true purpose of the Eluvian". We're absolutely in a position to determine the extent of her knowledge, based on the things she literally says she knows. In this case, that she has no idea what their true purpose is or what they were used for by the elvhen. 

[Gervaise]

I keep trying to point out that a lot of the arguments for and against Merrill are based on hindsight.   I try and view it from Hawke's perspective at the time.   Yes, it is quite possible that Hawke was being hypocritical going on a dangerous mission to the Deep Roads and then not helping Merrill.   However, it should also be noted that her request comes after that nearly fatal experience, so it could be that Hawke is now rather wiser about jumping into danger.     The argument that Hawke had alternatives to going to the Deep Roads is also a moot one since the writers do not give us that option, nor do they allow us to say categorically that we do not want to go to Kirkwall in the first place.    What they do allow is for Hawke to make an informed decision about whether or not to help Merrill, based on the evidence available to them.  From Hawke's perspective, there is no guarantee that mending the eluvian is going to help the elves in the slightest in the present but it might well get those in the alienage killed if it doesn't work out as planned.    If I had been playing Hawke who was a Dalish or even a city elf, I might have had a different perspective on it, but I was playing a human, who was trying to improve their lot in the world and, if a mage, trying to avoid getting arrested and locked up in the Gallows.   To my mind, common sense dictated that they would be very wary about helping Merrill and more inclined to give credence to the advice of a clan elder.    They might even think, "what would my father have done?"   I don't think Malcolm Hawke would have risked his family for such a venture. 

 

As for claiming that Merrill is so much more knowledgeable than Marethari about the eluvian, I thought the game made it clear that the knowledge that helped her cleanse and mend the eluvian came from Audacity.    This is why Hawke is so dubious about helping.    I'm sure if Merrill had produced a translation of the elven, giving her the details about eluvians and their construction, that would have been a different matter.   Not only that but the companions are not encouraging either.   Anders, the promoter of mage freedom, is constantly saying what she is doing in consulting a demon is a bad idea.   Considering he is actually an abomination with a spirit inside him, that is pretty hypocritical, but nevertheless you could call it expert advice on the matter.    You say Isabella, Varric and even Aveline might have been in favour of helping but I doubt it.   Isabella is anything but stupid and knows the dangers of demons, Varric is wary about strange magic and Aveline would give deference to Dalish authority (in the form of Marethari) on such matters.    Just because you like someone, doesn't mean you necessarily give into everything they demand.   On the contrary, you are more likely to refuse because you care about them.   My Hawkes who refused to help, or kept the knife, did so not because they didn't sympathise with Merrill or were unfriendly towards her, but because they were genuinely worried about what she was doing and how it could impact on her.  

[LobselVith8]

I keep trying to point out that a lot of the arguments for and against Merrill are based on hindsight.   I try and view it from Hawke's perspective at the time.   Yes, it is quite possible that Hawke was being hypocritical going on a dangerous mission to the Deep Roads and then not helping Merrill.   However, it should also be noted that her request comes after that nearly fatal experience, so it could be that Hawke is now rather wiser about jumping into danger.     The argument that Hawke had alternatives to going to the Deep Roads is also a moot one since the writers do not give us that option, nor do they allow us to say categorically that we do not want to go to Kirkwall in the first place.

 

Considering that many of the same who criticize Merrill for building the Eluvian never show any issue with Hawke venturing into the Deep Roads for a fabled fortune or endangering others on an expedition into the Deep Roads, and we know that there were alternatives (Ghost pointed out Carver providing one), I think it's worth pointing out. Merrill is trying to save her people and is building an Eluvian through painstaking research while Hawke wanted money to buy a mansion and become rich, yet Merrill is criticized while Hawke's actions are handwaved.

 

What they do allow is for Hawke to make an informed decision about whether or not to help Merrill, based on the evidence available to them.  From Hawke's perspective, there is no guarantee that mending the eluvian is going to help the elves in the slightest in the present but it might well get those in the alienage killed if it doesn't work out as planned.    If I had been playing Hawke who was a Dalish or even a city elf, I might have had a different perspective on it, but I was playing a human, who was trying to improve their lot in the world and, if a mage, trying to avoid getting arrested and locked up in the Gallows.   To my mind, common sense dictated that they would be very wary about helping Merrill and more inclined to give credence to the advice of a clan elder.    They might even think, "what would my father have done?"   I don't think Malcolm Hawke would have risked his family for such a venture. 

 

A cursory knowledge of the situation isn't really Hawke making an informed decision, though, particularly in regards to a culture he knows almost nothing about and about technology that only Merrill has read up on from the lore she studied.

 

As for claiming that Merrill is so much more knowledgeable than Marethari about the eluvian, I thought the game made it clear that the knowledge that helped her cleanse and mend the eluvian came from Audacity.    This is why Hawke is so dubious about helping.    I'm sure if Merrill had produced a translation of the elven, giving her the details about eluvians and their construction, that would have been a different matter. 

 

Considering that Hawke asks for aid without laying out all those details down, I don't see why Merrill should have to provide all the lore she studied and analyzed in order to construct the Eluvian. That's a bit of a double-standard there. It's even more hypocritical if Merrill was one of the people who accompanied Hawke into the Deep Roads.

 

Not only that but the companions are not encouraging either.   Anders, the promoter of mage freedom, is constantly saying what she is doing in consulting a demon is a bad idea.  

 

Anders has arguments with Merrill because he's constantly telling her that she is following the wrong religious beliefs and he tries to push Chantry teachings onto her. He's also an Andrastian human who doesn't know anything about the Eluvian, so he isn't speaking from an informed position, either.

 

 You say Isabella, Varric and even Aveline might have been in favour of helping but I doubt it.   Isabella is anything but stupid and knows the dangers of demons, Varric is wary about strange magic and Aveline would give deference to Dalish authority (in the form of Marethari) on such matters.    Just because you like someone, doesn't mean you necessarily give into everything they demand.   On the contrary, you are more likely to refuse because you care about them.   My Hawkes who refused to help, or kept the knife, did so not because they didn't sympathise with Merrill or were unfriendly towards her, but because they were genuinely worried about what she was doing and how it could impact on her.  

 

Except Audacity was involved with Merrill learning blood magic to cleanse a shard, as she explicitly notes, but she's constructing the Eluvian from the lore she studied (and none of her dialogue in-game indicates otherwise). If Hawke is mistaken in his understanding of the situation, that only points to his ignorance of the matter, and how he doesn't really deserve to be an arbitrator in a matter that he knows so little about. It's also incredibly hypocritical of Hawke to refuse Merrill when she's trying to end the plight of the People but still ask for her help for petty matters.

[Steelcan]

How on Earth are a risky but relatively mundane expedition into the Deep Roads, which is implied to be something that happens frequently after a Blight, and building a piece of ancient elven technology, with blood magic and advice from a demon, for an unknown goal and purpose, similar at all?

They are both risky, but the Deep Roads expedition is just simply not on the same level as what Merrill is doing. She doesn't know what it does, she's getting the advice from a pride demon, and its all for some vague "reclaim" our knowledge motivation.

Contrast that with the Deep Roads expedition which has a clear pay off and risk element. Risks that the party members do their best to alleviate such as getting Grey Warden advice and maps. Its a risky proposition as anything involving the Deep Roads is, but it's a much more mundane level of risk for tangible and clear benefits.

[The Ascendant]

Are we still talking about Merrill? 

Does anyone know how the Crossroads recognize different races?

[MisterJB]

Magic, duh.

[Gervaise]

I assume the Crossroads recognises an elf in the same way the Kieran does; there is something in your blood.    This seems to both grant immunity to the magical effects of the Crossroads on the individual and allows it to respond to their presence.    This is far less apparent in game than in Masked Empire.   There the Crossroads make non-elves feel physically sick, their head spin and restricts their movement, as well as the foliage on the side of the path blooming at the touch of the elf.    In game an elf Inquisitor (and Sera I believe) can see the colours at the Crossroads but to any other race it is in monochrome.  There would appear to be no adverse physical effects whatsoever.   As for why the Crossroads didn't have a bad affect on Morrigan, well her mother is harbouring Mythal which is probably way more potent than the diluted blood of modern elves.   It's not how you look but what is on the inside.

[LobselVith8]

I assume the Crossroads recognises an elf in the same way the Kieran does; there is something in your blood.    This seems to both grant immunity to the magical effects of the Crossroads on the individual and allows it to respond to their presence.    This is far less apparent in game than in Masked Empire.   There the Crossroads make non-elves feel physically sick, their head spin and restricts their movement, as well as the foliage on the side of the path blooming at the touch of the elf.    In game an elf Inquisitor (and Sera I believe) can see the colours at the Crossroads but to any other race it is in monochrome.  There would appear to be no adverse physical effects whatsoever.   As for why the Crossroads didn't have a bad affect on Morrigan, well her mother is harbouring Mythal which is probably way more potent than the diluted blood of modern elves.   It's not how you look but what is on the inside.

 

Regarding Morrigan, she does mention that a person can't remain "in between" for long, so I don't think we were meant to interpret that she didn't suffer any ill effects (her dialogue may have been referring to her own physiology in the Crossroads, given what we know from TME). Michel, for example, was human and didn't react like the elves did in the Crossroads, so I imagine Morrigan would be no different because she's human as well.

 

It's also interesting to note that the Eluvians lead to other places besides Thedas; Morrigan mentions she found sanctuary elsewhere, in another place.

[Gervaise]

In the book there seemed to be the pathways that led to small areas that were neither in the real world or the pathways.   When in these pocket realms the humans in the party seemed okay.   Come to think of it they were unaffected in the central Crossroads as well.   So if Morrigan entered the central part she would have been okay, then if she stepped through one of the eluvians to one of the pocket realms, she would also be okay.   Although I thought it was implied in  DAI that her eluvian only gave her access to the central chamber.    Anyway I presume that is why the party is unaffected in the Crossroads itself in DAI because the mixed race party in Masked Empire was okay there as well.      The Crossroads and the pocket realms seem to be some in between construct between the material world and the Fade, drawing strength from the latter but the Inquisitor can mention how they sense it is breaking down.    May be activating the entire network is draining the energy from it too quickly for the Fade to sustain it.  That might account for why it was shut down originally (probably by Solas in an act that had nothing to do with the civil war) because he wanted it to last until he returned. 

[In Exile]

How on Earth are a risky but relatively mundane expedition into the Deep Roads, which is implied to be something that happens frequently after a Blight, and building a piece of ancient elven technology, with blood magic and advice from a demon, for an unknown goal and purpose, similar at all?

They are both risky, but the Deep Roads expedition is just simply not on the same level as what Merrill is doing. She doesn't know what it does, she's getting the advice from a pride demon, and its all for some vague "reclaim" our knowledge motivation.

Contrast that with the Deep Roads expedition which has a clear pay off and risk element. Risks that the party members do their best to alleviate such as getting Grey Warden advice and maps. Its a risky proposition as anything involving the Deep Roads is, but it's a much more mundane level of risk for tangible and clear benefits.

I'm pretty sure Merrill explains exactly what she could do with the Eluvian, and what the tangible benefits are from it - communication. Certainly that's on as sure a footing as looting a bunch of graves after a blight, which is what Hawke and Varric will do.