As I said, the developers like to change the lore to suit the story; we've already seen this with the Orlesian political class as merely one example. The story and possibilities in the next game are contingent on what the developers decide to do.
...How'd they do that?
...How'd they do that?
Last comment on Merrill, switching to the other side of the argument, it is possible that she had been given the opportunity of looking at that book that Arianne's clan had that was stolen by Morrigan, probably at the last Arlathaven, which would have likely been not long before the events in DAO. This may have been what peaked her interest in the first place. However, it just came across to me in the actual game of DA2 that her information mostly came from Audacity and that he likely fed her information piecemeal in order to engineer a situation where he might be able to manipulate his freedom. I'm not saying that Merrill would have agreed to his terms but that is how it might appear to others. Judging by the clan's reaction when they knew that Michel had been talking with Imshael, it would seem that Marethari and the clan's reaction generally to Merrill's continued dialogue with the demon was pretty consistent with the Dalish generally (according to the writers). I didn't write the plotlines and the writers that did were clearly pushing the idea that Merrill was doing something inherently risky out of her own personal pride that she was more concerned about the future of her people than the rest of her clan. I role played the majority of my human Hawkes that they would be likely to agreed with that outlook. One eluvian does not immediately strike you as immensely important but more of academic interest. I personally was very interested in it, particularly having played the Dalish Origin and if I had been in Merrill's position I would likely have done the same as her, but then I am very much an elf at heart and really want to do something in one of these games that has a lasting benefit for them, and I can also be bloody minded when I think I'm right (hence happily arguing my case on these forums). However, I base my arguments against helping her on role playing Hawke and how it would appear to them. I still maintain there would be more reasons for them not to help her than there are to assist, based on the information they have available at the time.
If we are allowed to play multiple races next game, I will be very surprised if our elf is anything but a slave or ex-slave. It is possible that they could have been born a Dalish but captured by slavers at a young age but that would still mean their outlook would be more that of a city elf and they would not have vallaslin. I would imagine it very unlikely that any adult Dalish ever end up as slaves since they would go down fighting for their freedom and even if not killed outright, would probably be thought not worth the trouble. So killing off the adults and taking the children is a more likely scenario. Still, I think it is far more likely that the elf would be effectively a city elf born and raised, either as a slave within a noble household or the child of a liberati who finds work there. This could apply equally well to a mage or non-mage, since we know there are slave mages in Tevinter and also that they can be made liberati if their master so chooses. As such they could be part of a Circle of Magi but very low on the pecking order. That promise to Fenris' sister by Darinius was an empty one. The only way he could have made her a Magister would be to make her his heir (highly unlikely) or sponsor her to the higher echelons of the Circle and even then she would have to overcome the prejudices and aspirations of all the other social climbing Laetans. Theoretically it could happen but in practice it would be all but impossible.
So as I like playing elves, I am resigned to once again being regarded as the scum of society just as in southern Thedas. I'm just hoping that this time round I can really make a difference to the lives of my fellows elves, not simply save everyone else's skins, be promised better days for the elves as a result and then having it come to nothing.
In the past Dragon Age games we've seen a great variety in Elven origins, giving us a perspective on how other races treat them and how they in turn are treated by other Elves.
You have City Elves, the bottom of human society, who simply struggle to live peacefully with humans, taking some elven bits with humanity in an attempt to coexist. But they are always at the mercy of humans, and those can be very cruel mercies, when your life is deemed to have less value than a human.
You have Mage Elves, somewhat more privileged, they receive, education, accommodation and training in their powers. They may be locked up in a Circle, but their magic makes them invaluable and they aren't starving in slums and Alienages. But now they have to deal with a religion which not only persecutes because of what they are but also who they are.
Then you have Dalish, which can vary widely depending on your clan, you can be human tolerant, xenophobic, a bit arrogant and condescending and more often then not isolationist. They understandable, just want to be left alone, and who can blame them. But the Elven lore and history they value, is so distorted and misinterpreted, that the truth has been almost forgotten.
So in Tevinter chances are high, if we play an Elf, chances are we will be a City Elf/Slave. Where we stand in Tevinter society might depend on our class, it seems the most likely outcome. Dorian himself mentions that Dalish don't tend to go north to the Imperium, understandably.
Although I do wonder why does Tevinter seem to have such a high demand for Elven slaves, if the comics are any indication they seem to be highly valued or sough after. Why? Are they simply better suited for slave work or expendable?
If we are allowed to play multiple races next game, I will be very surprised if our elf is anything but a slave or ex-slave. It is possible that they could have been born a Dalish but captured by slavers at a young age but that would still mean their outlook would be more that of a city elf and they would not have vallaslin. I would imagine it very unlikely that any adult Dalish ever end up as slaves since they would go down fighting for their freedom and even if not killed outright, would probably be thought not worth the trouble. So killing off the adults and taking the children is a more likely scenario.
Gaider mentioned Dalish clans in the Imperium, but you're likely right that a Dalish elf would likely rather die than submit to Tevinter.
Still, I think it is far more likely that the elf would be effectively a city elf born and raised, either as a slave within a noble household or the child of a liberati who finds work there. This could apply equally well to a mage or non-mage, since we know there are slave mages in Tevinter and also that they can be made liberati if their master so chooses. As such they could be part of a Circle of Magi but very low on the pecking order.
You could be right about how the next Dragon Age handles the racial choice for an elven character.
That promise to Fenris' sister by Darinius was an empty one. The only way he could have made her a Magister would be to make her his heir (highly unlikely) or sponsor her to the higher echelons of the Circle and even then she would have to overcome the prejudices and aspirations of all the other social climbing Laetans. Theoretically it could happen but in practice it would be all but impossible.
I think one of the companions (or even Fenris himself) would have mentioned that during the scene if it was intended to be interpreted as an 'empty promise' and nothing more. Given the prior changes and rectons that we've already seen (from Orlesian politics to the three mage recton with the Dalish), I'm more inclined to believe that the developers simply didn't flesh Tevinter society out at that point.
So as I like playing elves, I am resigned to once again being regarded as the scum of society just as in southern Thedas. I'm just hoping that this time round I can really make a difference to the lives of my fellows elves, not simply save everyone else's skins, be promised better days for the elves as a result and then having it come to nothing.
I don't see the appeal in playing as an Andrastian elf (I'm speaking for no one but myself on this matter); it's not as if the game is lax in Andrastian options, after all, and I'm sure the human options will provide such. It's part of the reason why I felt that the Dalish option in Inquisition was so appealing when we were limited to playing as a religious Andrastian as Hawke - although I feel that the developers botched that almost entirely.
I don't feel that you should be obliged to play as an Andrastrian elf, particularly if you are a slave. I shouldn't imagine you are encouraged to believe in anything and I don't get the impression that the Tevinter Chantry goes in for all that Chanting on a regular basis like the southern ones do. You could still be slave with a limited knowledge of the "old" ways through folk tales handed down or simply looking for some alternative to the State religion. The main reason I don't like playing humans is that they constantly make us play as the noble class and therefore one of the oppressors. Sure you can role play that you are some enlightened individual who is in favour of helping the downtrodden masses but very often the dialogue they give you really doesn't allow this.
In answer to the question about why they favour elven slaves; there have been a lot of indications that this may be because of the magical signature in their blood that makes their blood more potent for use in blood magic spells and rituals. This is also apparently true of mages. So an elven mage slave would be particularly valuable. There may also be other reasons, such as the elves are more dextrous when it comes to certain tasks and the fact that humans do find them attractive, even if they won't openly admit as much. Since the idea among the Altus is that you marry for power and influence, maintain an aura of respectability about your sexual preferences in public, but indulge your real proclivities in secret, in particular with "favoured slaves", that could also explain the popularity of elven slaves.
Orana still seemed to be Andrastian in DA 2, and Fenris was sort of was too.
Orana still seemed to be Andrastian in DA 2, and Fenris was sort of was too.
If we're limited to playing as an Andrastian, I'll opt out of that. I hope it's satisfying for people who like that, however.
One thing I don't understand is why did Mythal stay away from the modern elves.
When the elven Inquisitor asks about that, Flemeth replies "They don't want the truth". It reminds me of Solas' complaint that he tried to share knowledge and they rejected him.
But in her case, it doesn't seem like a good enough reason. Mythal is one of the most revered elven gods and revealing her identity wouldn't be as troublesome.
The Dalish as a whole most likely wouldn't believe her, since she is in the body of a human. Sure Merrill does, but hers is an unique perspective among the Dalish. After all they didn't believe or want to listen to Solas, and he is an elf.
As for City Elves, they aren't seeking to reclaim the past like the Dalish but are focusing on surviving the present and looking towards the future.
She did help the Dalish from time to time for a price, in much the same way that the old Mythal is said to have done with her supplicants. The Dalish knew they could seek her aid but only did so if they were desperate because she was just as likely to kill a supplicant as help them. On the whole it is when they want justice/vengeance on someone. The Chasind apparently used her in much the same way and it is said they never get it in quite the way they expect. In the case of the Dalish, it would seem at least some of the time she helps in return for the promise of doing something for her at a later date, which is probably how Marethari got trapped into undertaking the mission to Sundermount, having called upon her many years before to enact vengeance on the Avaar who attacked her clan, killing her husband and fatally wounding the Keeper. Apparently Flemeth did as requested, so now Flemeth had a hold over her and as someone has already mentioned, Flemeth can afford to be patient and use the favour when it most benefits her. I am sure all Dalish know that you don't refuse a request from Asha'Bellanar.
When Lavellan challenges her that she didn't do more, her response is that they do not know what they ask. Given that Solas doing more will result in the destruction of the current world and the Dalish in it, you can sort of see where she is coming from on that one.
She does take an interest in the Dalish and has a much more approving view of them that Solas does. For a start off she does see them as the People. She tells Lavallen "You do the People proud" and to Merrill she says "Then rise child, the People are too quick to bend the knee", because Merrill admits she doesn't know who she is. When you do know who she is, she probably feels that bending the knee would be appropriate.
They're a thing. Very, very rare for sure, but I'm pretty sure there are some in the Circles.That brings something up: does anyone know the status of elven mages in Tevinter?
I got the sense that at some level, she really didn't want to be that goddess anymore. Would also explain why she left the servants at her temple high and dry, even though she has definitely been an active party for nearly a millennium.One thing I don't understand is why did Mythal stay away from the modern elves. She's been around.
Orana still seemed to be Andrastian in DA 2, and Fenris was sort of was too.
Probably "Black Chantry" Andrastrian
I'd argue that it is precisely how she treated Morrigan that Morrigan became a very strong mother herself.Mythal was treated with fear and admiration as Asha'Bellanar, like she was when she was Mythal in the good old days. And how exactly could she help them? She may have been the nicest of the Evanuris, but she was still a magical dictator who enslaved her people and made them think she was a god. Look at how she treated Morrigan, would you want her as your mother, let alone your god?
The Dalish as a whole most likely wouldn't believe her, since she is in the body of a human. Sure Merrill does, but hers is an unique perspective among the Dalish. After all they didn't believe or want to listen to Solas, and he is an elf.
As for City Elves, they aren't seeking to reclaim the past like the Dalish but are focusing on surviving the present and looking towards the future.
I don't think Merrill believes she's Mythal. Just that she is asha'bellanar, a being worthy of respect.
Remember, when Flemeth asks Merrill if she knows who she is, beynod the title, and Merrill replies "Only a little" she bids Merril to stand, because "The People bend the knee too quickly"
But also, Solas is likely right, the Dalish as a whole don't really want to know "the truth" That their gods are just elves like them who enslaved their own people. THat they weren't tricked into leaving but were banished because their infighting threatened everyone. Their lost utopia never really existed.
And the same goes for the city elves. Their lot wouldn't change much undr the Evanuris as with the humans
I'd argue that it is precisely how she treated Morrigan that Morrigan became a very strong mother herself.
In regards to the Dalish though, she did indeed say she was nothing more than "a shadow, lingering in the sun". And, that they did not want the truth. She really was in no position to help them and even if she was, they probably would not have listened.
Honestly one of my favourite moments in the trilogy was Morrigan telling Flemeth she will never be a mother like her. For a brief instance, you see just the tiniest bit of remorse on Flemeth's face, a really human moment for an otherwise inhuman character.I'd argue that it is precisely how she treated Morrigan that Morrigan became a very strong mother herself.
In regards to the Dalish though, she did indeed say she was nothing more than "a shadow, lingering in the sun". And, that they did not want the truth. She really was in no position to help them and even if she was, they probably would not have listened.
She also taught Morrigan that love is a disease and the weak deserve their fate.
If we're limited to playing as an Andrastian, I'll opt out of that. I hope it's satisfying for people who like that, however.
Well it's not like you have to play someone religiously Andrastian, even if you play someone from an Andrastian culture, in DAI. I'm just saying the sense I get would be that the modern elven slaves of Tevinter are largely the same religion as the rest of the Imperium.
Your point? I was not siding with what Flemeth said. My point was that she still made Morrigan into the mother that she is today.She also taught Morrigan that love is a disease and the weak deserve their fate.
The Dalish as a whole most likely wouldn't believe her, since she is in the body of a human.
If the Dalish had an issue with Asha'bellanar for not being an elf, I doubt multiple clans would show her respect (and they seem to have a good enough relationship that even Ariane knew exactly where her hut was when Morrigan stole the elven tome).
After all they didn't believe or want to listen to Solas, and he is an elf.
Given Solas' way with words in certain matters, that's hardly surprising. And I say that as someone who likes the character, but he's not very good with certain subjects. His choice of phrasing at times to the dwarven and qunari Inquisitors also come to mind.
As for City Elves, they aren't seeking to reclaim the past like the Dalish but are focusing on surviving the present and looking towards the future.
The Dalish have adapted to their nomadic lifestyle and they want a homeland. You also seem to be forgetting that the Dalish are trying to survive, too - that's the entire reason they have to be nomadic in the first place. They can't built towards the future because people are actively trying to kill them every day.
And I disagree on the city elves looking towards the future - they live in impoverished sections of the city, have no representation, and can be purged any time they take issue with the status quo (let's remember the purge of the Denerim Alienage lead to the orphanage getting sacked). There's a reason that Mahariel is told by the hahren (after Caladrius' death) that the alienage is a cage.
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