1603 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The Dalish have adapted to their nomadic lifestyle and they want a homeland. You also seem to be forgetting that the Dalish are trying to survive, too - that's the entire reason they have to be nomadic in the first place. They can't built towards the future because people are actively trying to kill them every day.

Being a nomad implies no desire for a homeland, so how can they have adapted to that lifestyle yet want that more than anything?

They aren't building for the future. They are trying to rebuild the past. A past that isn't the utopia they think it is, since both the Dales and Elvhenan were just as terrible as the worst human nations. 

 

And I disagree on the city elves looking towards the future - they live in impoverished sections of the city, have no representation, and can be purged any time they take issue with the status quo (let's remember the purge of the Denerim Alienage lead to the orphanage getting sacked). There's a reason that Mahariel is told by the hahren(after Caladrius' death) that the alienage is a cage.

You mean other than Briala, Shianni, etc looking to make the lives of their kind better? Yeah, they aren't looking towards the future at all. 

[LobselVith8]

I don't think Merrill believes she's Mythal.  Just that she is asha'bellanar, a being worthy of respect.

 

Remember, when Flemeth asks Merrill if she knows who she is, beynod the title, and Merrill replies "Only a little" she bids Merril to stand, because "The People bend the knee too quickly"

 

No one is supposed to know that Asha'bellanar houses a remnant of Mythal's essence until Inquisition.

 

But also, Solas is likely right, the Dalish as a whole don't really want to know "the truth"  That their gods are just elves like them who enslaved their own people.  THat they weren't tricked into leaving but were banished because their infighting threatened everyone.  Their lost utopia never really existed.  

 

Considering that Merrill points out that the Dalish don't know who started the war between the Creators and the Forgotten Ones, and one of their myths involves Elgar'nan nearly destroying all life on the planet, I don't think it would come as a shock to the People to know that the Creators aren't perfect. Mainly because I don't imagine anyone ever thought that, particularly when you listen to Merrill's comments about Mythal after she gives her prayer on Sundermount.

 

Honestly, they would probably wonder why Asha'bellanar sat on her butt and did nothing for the Elvhen for centuries.

 

The elves have survived centuries of enslavement by the Imperium, the loss and annexation of their second homeland, and the Dalish spent centuries living as nomads just to survive. Asha'bellanar has the power to help her people, but she does nothing; she knows they are trying to uncover the truth of their history, but she says nothing. Merrill's dialogue confirms that their knowledge is limited and that the People are cognizant of that, and even the Dalish codex on Arlathan is specified as a legend that could very well be wrong.

 

And the same goes for the city elves.  Their lot wouldn't change much undr the Evanuris as with the humans

 

The information wouldn't, but Asha'bellanar had the power to help them with their situation; she simply did nothing about it.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't see the appeal in playing as an Andrastian elf (I'm speaking for no one but myself on this matter); it's not as if the game is lax in Andrastian options, after all, and I'm sure the human options will provide such. It's part of the reason why I felt that the Dalish option in Inquisition was so appealing when we were limited to playing as a religious Andrastian as Hawke - although I feel that the developers botched that almost entirely.​​

Meanwhile I am looking forward to it, since Inquisition ruined being an Elf for me since we were forced to be a Pro-Dalish Dalish. If there is only one elven backstory in DA4, it is only fair this time it is a City Elf. 

[LobselVith8]

Being a nomad implies no desire for a homeland, so how can they have adapted to that lifestyle yet want that more than anything?

 

Well, when you consider that the Chantry outlawed their religion and that humans attack the clans when they stay too long in one place, I wouldn't begrudge the Dalish for being nomadic in order to survive. Let's not forget that even Merrill points out that if the Dalish had a homeland, "half of Thedas" would attack them.

 

They aren't building for the future. They are trying to rebuild the past. A past that isn't the utopia they think it is, since both the Dales and Elvhenan were just as terrible as the worst human nations. 

 

The Dalish are trying to survive because they face a myriad of threats because of their culture and religion, and they adapted to their situation. Even WoT notes that their magic adapted due to their lifestyle.

 

You mean other than Briala, Shianni, etc looking to make the lives of their community better? Yeah, they aren't looking towards the future at all. 

 

Aside from the fact that you seem to have completely missed my point, let me try again - how, exactly, are the elves in the alienage in a position to really build for the future when they have no real rights and (as Duncan admits) are viewed as "less than people" by humans? I remember Shianni and the others being taken in broad daylight to be gang raped with nobody giving the slightest damn because they were elves; even Duncan didn't seem to have the power to intercede because of the King's Law against defending elves against humans. I remember the purge being mentioned and an orphanage being massacred. The elves in the alienage are suffering because of their situation and their lack of rights.

 

Their plight is the very reason Briala takes steps to try and change that. Bringing Briala up only supports what I was saying in the first place. She wouldn't need to start a rebellion and utilize the Orlesian Eluvians if the elves weren't in a terrible position to begin with.

[Qun00]

Your point? I was not siding with what Flemeth said. My point was that she still made Morrigan into the mother that she is today.

Morrigan disagrees with you, as she says she doesn't want to be that kind of mother. And being raised by Flemeth isn't something she remembers fondly.

"My mother's stories curdled my blood and haunted my dreams.

No little girl wants to hear about the Wilder men her mother took to her bed, using them till they were spent, then killing them.

No little girl wants to be told that this is also expected of her, once she comes of age.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Being a nomad implies no desire for a homeland, so how can they have adapted to that lifestyle yet want that more than anything?

 

What? There are many stateless people in the world. That absolutely doesn't mean they don't desire a homeland. The Dalish are nomads by necessity. 

 

They aren't building for the future. They are trying to rebuild the past. A past that isn't the utopia they think it is, since both the Dales and Elvhenan were just as terrible as the worst human nations.

 

Reclaiming a lost past and building the future are not mutually exclusive. Besides, if the Dalish don't realize their past was as bad as it was, that still means they are trying to make a better future because they are trying to rebuild the utopia they thought existed.

[The Ascendant]

I think that ultimately humanities attitude to Elves will never change. Individually humans can be decent people, but the bigger the group the more stupid they get. And the longer they endure the more difficult it is to change their minds and opinions about anything. Magic, Elves, Dragons, Spirits the list is endless. Living in a world with the deck so stacked against them, in a world that is akin to taking a fish out of water, no matter what they do, Elves will never really belong. The Thedas of today is a human one, and human nature will tolerate no competition.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

And the same goes for the city elves.  Their lot wouldn't change much undr the Evanuris as with the humans

 

Well, I mean, it might. The Evanuris could well decide to kill the all.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well, when you consider that the Chantry outlawed their religion and that humans attack the clans when they stay too long in one place, I wouldn't begrudge the Dalish for being nomadic in order to survive. Let's not forget that even Merrill points out that if the Dalish had a homeland, "half of Thedas" would attack them.

 

 

The Dalish are trying to survive because they face a myriad of threats because of their culture and religion, and they adapted to their situation. Even WoT notes that their magic adapted due to their lifestyle.

And why was their culture and religion outlawed again? Oh right, because they led the Dales to cut a swath of death and destruction through Orlais among other things, like letting countless innocent people die in the Second Blight when they didn't help. And as it turns out, that religion is worshiping those who did far worse to the elves than the Chantry ever has. 

Not all humans do. There are places where humans and the Dalish get along great or at least aren't hostile to each other. 

 

 

Aside from the fact that you seem to have completely missed my point, let me try again - how, exactly, are the elves in the alienage in a position to really build for the future when they have no real rights and (as Duncan admits) are viewed as "less than people" by humans? I remember Shianni and the others being taken in broad daylight to be gang raped with nobody giving the slightest damn because they were elves; even Duncan didn't seem to have the power to intercede because of the King's Law against defending elves against humans. I remember the purge being mentioned and an orphanage being massacred. The elves in the alienage are suffering because of their situation and their lack of rights.

 

Their plight is the very reason Briala takes steps to try and change that. Bringing Briala up only supports what I was saying in the first place. She wouldn't need to start a rebellion and utilize the Orlesian Eluvians if the elves weren't in a terrible position to begin with.

You can say the same thing about any Civil Rights movement in human history. They started in the position the City Elves are in if not worse, and yet things got exponentially better. And depending on what occurs in recent events, it is working. Just look at how things are getting better for the elves under Celene and Briala in Orlais and Leliana as Divine Victoria. Too bad Solas' actions will probably ruin all that. 

No, you were saying they weren't looking towards the future. Briala leading a rebellion for that future supports me, not you. 

[LobselVith8]

Meanwhile I am looking forward to it, since Inquisition ruined being an Elf for me since we were forced to be a Pro-Dalish Dalish.

 

Lavellan was also the only pro-Dalish character. Virtually everyone else was singing the praises of the Andrastian faith and the Chantry of Andraste, and a plethora of characters denigrated us for being Dalish and not being Andrastian. Some characters even pushed their faith on us in the same way Anders tries to push his Chantry teachings on Merrill.

 

If there is only one elven backstory in DA4, it is only fair this time it is a City Elf. 

 

If I didn't think that the developers would shove the Andrastian faith down the character's proverbial throat, I'd have no issue with it. My Warden was Surana, but he was also atheist.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

And why was their culture and religion outlawed again? Oh right, because they led the Dales to cut a swath of death and destruction through Orlais among other things, like letting countless innocent people die in the Second Blight when they didn't help. 

 

By that logic, almost all religions and cultures should be banned. In real life and Thedas.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

By that logic, virtually all religions and cultures should be banned. In real life and Thedas.

I never said it was right. But let's not pretend like the Dales were some helpless victim in all this. They weren't the victims, they were the original victimizers. So while I don't support it, I can understand why the outlaw occurred. 

[LobselVith8]

And why was their culture and religion outlawed again? Oh right, because they led the Dales to cut a swath of death and destruction through Orlais among other things, like letting countless innocent people die in the Second Blight when they didn't help.

 

You do realize that Orlais declared war on the Dales, right? And that we already know that humans and elves were responsible in Red Crossing; it was hardly a black or white matter. There were causalities on both sides. Remember this entry: "Ser Mhemet, a Rivaini templar, fought in the Exalted March on the Dales for one reason: his love of killing elves, which pushed him to so many victories, the Chantry elevated him to Anointed after his death. To this day, Halamshiral elves consider his name a curse."

 

And as it turns out, that religion is worshiping those who did far worse to the elves than the Chantry ever has. 

 

That's debatable considering the centuries of slavery by the Imperium.

 

You can say the same thing about any Civil Rights movement in human history. They started in the position the City Elves are in if not worse, and yet things got exponentially better. And depending on what occurs in recent events, it is working. Just look at how things are getting better for the elves under Celene and Briala in Orlais and Leliana as Divine Victoria. 

 

I wouldn't consider putting Briala with a woman who murdered her parents and fetishized her as making things better, but that's just me.

 

No, you were saying they weren't looking towards the future. Briala leading a rebellion for that future supports me, not you. 

 

If a rebellion was necessary, then it means the status quo wasn't providing the elves with a future to look forward to. I suppose you and I will have to disagree. If you ask Briala what her plans are when she becomes the shadow ruler of the empire, she says, "The elves of Orlais will make great gains under our new emperor. Wait and see." In private, she tells the Inquisitor, "The elves of Orlais have a future. For the first time in centuries."

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You do realize that Orlais declared war on the Dales, right? And that we already know that humans and elves were responsible in Red Crossing; it was hardly a black or white matter. There were causalities on both sides. Remember this entry: "Ser Mhemet, a Rivaini templar, fought in the Exalted March on the Dales for one reason: his love of killing elves, which pushed him to so many victories, the Chantry elevated him to Anointed after his death. To this day, Halamshiral elves consider his name a curse."

Yes, after the Dales had started their invasion of Orlais. 

I'm not saying Orlais is innocent, just that it was the Dales that started it.

 

That's debatable considering the centuries of slavery by the Imperium.

Hence why I said Chantry, not humanity. Then again the Evanuris enslaved elves a lot longer than Tevinter ever has. 

 

I wouldn't consider putting Briala with a woman who murdered her parents and fetishized her as making things better, but that's just me.

Well, regardless of your belief it is according to the lore of what happens with that choice. 

 

 

If a rebellion was necessary, then it means the status quo wasn't providing the elves with a future to look forward to. I suppose you and I will have to disagree. If you ask Briala what her plans are when she becomes the shadow ruler of the empire, she says, "The elves of Orlais will make great gains under our new emperor. Wait and see." In private, she tells the Inquisitor, "The elves of Orlais have a future. For the first time in centuries."

No, it just means said future was seen as having to be fought for. They still were looking forward to the future before that. Whether she was right or not is debatable. Before the Revolutionary War happened, the American colonies were still looking forward to a future of being independent states. 

I guess we will. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Lavellan was also the only pro-Dalish character. Virtually everyone else was singing the praises of the Andrastian faith and the Chantry of Andraste, and a plethora of characters denigrated us for being Dalish and not being Andrastian. Some characters even pushed their faith on us in the same way Anders tries to push his Chantry teachings on Merrill.

And? You still got to be your Dalish character? I didn't get to be the kind of Elf I wanted to be since I was forced to be the kind you wanted to be or not be an elf at all. 

 

If I didn't think that the developers would shove the Andrastian faith down the character's proverbial throat, I'd have no issue with it. My Warden was Surana, but he was also atheist.

I doubt they will. Even in Inquisition the human Inquisitor who grew up in a very religious family can deny the faith. And with this being the Black Chantry in Tevinter, them forcing those controversial beliefs without the option to oppose are unlikely. 

[LobselVith8]

Yes, after the Dales had started their invasion of Orlais. 

 

No, Orlais declared war first. You're thinking of the Chantry declaring an Exalted March after elven troops were on Orlesian territory.

 

No, it just means said future was seen as having to be fought for. They still were looking forward to the future before that. Whether she was right or not is debatable. Before the Revolutionary War happened, the American colonies were still looking forward to a future of being independent states. 

I guess we will. 

 

If you're fighting to change things, you're not looking forward to the future under the status quo. Moving on, their future also depends on whether or not Bioware respects the choice made by players to empower Briala or handwaves it to accommodate their story with elves joining Solas (in the way they did with the outcomes for the City Elf as Bann and Dalish Boon).

[Hellion Rex]

Morrigan disagrees with you, as she says she doesn't want to be that kind of mother. And being raised by Flemeth isn't something she remembers fondly.

"My mother's stories curdled my blood and haunted my dreams.

No little girl wants to hear about the Wilder men her mother took to her bed, using them till they were spent, then killing them.

No little girl wants to be told that this is also expected of her, once she comes of age.

You are clearly not hearing me. All I am saying is that what Flemeth did to her as a child forced Morrigan to become a better mother than the Witch ever was.

[Gervaise]

Changing the subject back to Flemeth, I notice that you get a different perspective depending on whether she was speaking to an elf or not.   People are saying that Flemeth claimed the Dalish didn't want the truth but she sure didn't say that to my Lavellan.    Instead she said "You do the People proud" and when challenged why she didn't help more, she doesn't turn around and say that it is because my people did not want the truth.    So it would seem that just like Solas she alters the story to suit her audience and there is no clear indication of what her motivations were for keeping quiet.    

 

However, she did give help give help to Dalish clans when requested and if she felt the request was merited, so she did at least do something no matter what she thought of their efforts to recover the past.   It doesn't reflect badly on the Dalish just because she spins some yarn to an Inquisitor of another race.  In fact saying they don't want the truth would stop them from approaching the Dalish and trying to give it to them.   May be she was actually giving them the chance to stand on their own feet without the need of gods to run their lives for them.   He words to Merrill might suggest as much.   Since I doubt her plans necessarily fit with Solas' in their entirety, it may well be that she wants the Dalish to survive after she has dealt with the Evanuris because once again Solas is going to find that it is not going to work out as he intended.  

 

The Dalish remembering Mythal as they do and honouring her may have also helped Mythal retain her identity and even her power in some way. They thought of her as an immortal goddess who had been taken from them by trickery.   Revealing that she had been murdered and reduced to co-existing in a human body might reduce the awe and reverence they felt for her and impact on her in some way.    So it was best to keep quite about it.

[Vit246]

But also, Solas is likely right, the Dalish as a whole don't really want to know "the truth"  That their gods are just elves like them who enslaved their own people.  THat they weren't tricked into leaving but were banished because their infighting threatened everyone.  Their lost utopia never really existed.  

 

We don't even know what exactly Solas even said to them. And he probably came off as an arrogant know-it-all who claimed his knowledge came from casually walking the Fade and thus only he can substantiate it. And plus he can't help but constantly denigrate the Dalish no matter their circumstances and merits.

 

Very convenient we have only his side of the story and he paints himself as the beleaguered good guy who only wanted to enlighten the ignorant savages who wouldn't immediately bow down to this infinite wisdom.

Modifié par Vit246, 11 juillet 2016 - 02:07 .

[Iakus]

We don't even know what exactly Solas even said to them. And he probably came off as an arrogant know-it-all who claimed his knowledge came from casually walking the Fade and thus only he can substantiate it. And plus he can't help but constantly denigrate the Dalish no matter their circumstances and merits.

True.  Which makes me wonder if he's changing tactics now.  I mean, he appears to have re-embraced his Fein'Haral identity and is wearing a wolf pelt now...

[Steelcan]

No, Orlais declared war first. You're thinking of the Chantry declaring an Exalted March after elven troops were on Orlesian territory.
 
 

blatantly untrue, the events around Red crossing are somewhat in doubt, but what is not in doubt is that the Elves invaded Orlais proper immediately afterwards, and given the losses Orlais suffered at first there's no reason to think they had prepared for the war, and thus no reason to think they declared it.

[Hellion Rex]

True.  Which makes me wonder if he's changing tactics now.  I mean, he appears to have re-embraced his Fein'Haral identity and is wearing a wolf pelt now...

Yes, but the Dalish were taught to fear and be very wary of Fen'Harel, no? So what in the world could he be telling them that would change their minds or dispel their previously held beliefs?

[sniper_arrow]

Yes, but the Dalish were taught to fear and be very wary of Fen'Harel, no? So what in the world could he be telling them that would change their minds or dispel their previously held beliefs?

 

I think somewhere before Trespasser, he found a way to gain his magical strength and showed the Dalish on what really happened (well, his version of the events at least).

[LobselVith8]

Yes, but the Dalish were taught to fear and be very wary of Fen'Harel, no? So what in the world could he be telling them that would change their minds or dispel their previously held beliefs?

 

Yeah, I honestly don't see many clans joining him simply because he's Fen'Harel; there are a number of stories that talk about his treacherous nature and his betrayals (even Felassan tells one of them to Briala), so realistically the number of Dalish joining him should be very few. It would be similar to templars joining Anders because he claims he can do something about the mages - how many are really going to go against everything their culture and religion taught him? It would make more sense if the Dalish opposed him precisely because he was Fen'Harel.

[Qun00]

You can say the same thing about any Civil Rights movement in human history. They started in the position the City Elves are in if not worse, and yet things got exponentially better. And depending on what occurs in recent events, it is working. Just look at how things are getting better for the elves under Celene and Briala in Orlais and Leliana as Divine Victoria. Too bad Solas' actions will probably ruin all that.
No, you were saying they weren't looking towards the future. Briala leading a rebellion for that future supports me, not you.

I don't understand why anyone would want them together. Celene doesn't give a damn about elves, she just pretends in order to stay in Briala's good graces.

It seems more practical to get rid of this potential obstacle and put Briala in charge as the de facto empress.