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[sniper_arrow]

Yeah, I honestly don't see many clans joining him simply because he's Fen'Harel; there are a number of stories that talk about his treacherous nature and his betrayals (even Felassan tells one of them to Briala), so realistically the number of Dalish joining him should be very few. It would be similar to templars joining Anders because he claims he can do something about the mages - how many are really going to go against everything their culture and religion taught him? It would make more sense if the Dalish opposed him precisely because he was Fen'Harel.

 

On the other hand, he may "force" the Dalish to assist him. I mean, this wouldn't be the first time he has done brutal tactics (Felassan's murder and killing the Kirkwall mages comes into mind).

[Bayonet Hipshot]

That's actually a double standard in this series that bothers me.

 

Leandra and Hawke want to escape the slums by moving to a mansion in Hightown, and won't settle for anything less. They want to reclaim ancestral privileges they "lost" (*cough*gaveup*cough*) and endanger themselves and others searching for treasure in the Deep Roads--and they're rewarded for it.

 

Carver himself says at one point that Leandra's chasing ghosts by trying to get back into Hightown, and is endangering the family in her quest to do it. He feels the better course of action would be for them start anew somewhere else, maybe start another farm in the country, but he's dismissed by Hawke. And in the end, Leandra is rewarded for her greed and refusal to settle on less than Hightown.

 

Meanwhile, elven characters who try to "recover the past" are constantly punished for it. Fenris tried to find answers to his past? His sister sold him out, and he "realized" he should forget the past and focus on the present. Merrill tried to recover a lost relic of her people's past? She has her spirit broken by Marethari and gives up on the mirror, focusing on "improving things now" by helping poor alienage elves still stuck in poverty. Briala idealized Arlathan? She "realized" the Dalish and Elvhenan alike are jerks, and decides to focus on political reform today.

 

Leandra refused to settle on anything less than reclaiming her "rightful" place in Hightown (that she chose to give up) because she wouldn't let go of the past, and Hawke risked certain death in the Depp Roads to afford it? The Hawkes were rewarded for their refusal to let go of the past and their vain quest for personal wealth and luxury, and live it up in Hightown for several years.

 

I call bull!

 

I get what you are saying but Leandra ends up becoming a Necromancer's lab rat / puppet. Carver either dies or becomes Tainted or becomes addicted to Lyrium.

 

Yet another elven thread devolving into a Merrill argument.

 

While I personally tend to give her the knife, the game does present it as something risky.  We are led to believe that the mirror may unleash something terrible- From Marethari's warnings, the clan's trepidation, the shard previously being tainted, Merrill's communication with the demon, and also the loading screen of Merrill's Eluvian radiating a sinister dark energy.

 

IMO those are solid reasons not to give Merrill the knife. 

 

My Hawke gave Merrill the Arulin'Holm but I roleplayed that he told her that if she ends up getting possessed or unleashing something bad from the Mirror, he will not hesitate to put her down and destroy the mirror.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Are we still talking about Merrill? 

 

Does anyone know how the Crossroads recognize different races?

 

It does not. It is due to Elven biology. The Crossroads is a dimension that was built in a pre-Veil environment. It was built by Elves for Elves before the Veil went up. It was a different environment which meant different biological adaptations. Elves that are currently living in Thedas are biologically the closest group to the pre-Veil Elves, hence they can do just fine in the Crossroads.

 

To put it in real world terms, think of a non-Elf going to the Crossroads something akin to someone like me who was born in the tropics (Southeast Asia to be specific) going to Siberia and living there. The rapid environmental change would affect me since I, my family and ancestors were all born in the tropics and our bodies are biologically more adapted to living the tropics. The only difference is that I can adjust to Siberian conditions after a while but a non-Elf cannot.

[The Ascendant]

It does not. It is due to Elven biology. The Crossroads is a dimension that was built in a pre-Veil environment. It was built by Elves for Elves before the Veil went up. It was a different environment which meant different biological adaptations. Elves that are currently living in Thedas are biologically the closest group to the pre-Veil Elves, hence they can do just fine in the Crossroads.
 
To put it in real world terms, think of a non-Elf going to the Crossroads something akin to someone like me who was born in the tropics (Southeast Asia to be specific) going to Siberia and living there. The rapid environmental change would affect me since I, my family and ancestors were all born in the tropics and our bodies are biologically more adapted to living the tropics. The only difference is that I can adjust to Siberian conditions after a while but a non-Elf cannot.

Curious how the Qunari were able to access the Crossroads. If it is uncomfortable for non Elves how could they access and use them to such an extent, especially considering their hatred for magic.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Curious how the Qunari were able to access the Crossroads. If it is uncomfortable for non Elves how could they access and use them to such an extent, especially considering their hatred for magic.

 

Because the Qunari were lead by Viddasala.

 

http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Viddasala

 

 

The Viddasala is one of the three leaders of the Ben-Hassrath, who presides over the branch whose name translates as "Dangerous Purpose". She specializes in finding, studying, and stopping magic. The Viddasala also handles the conversion of foreigners and the re-education of Qunari dissidents. She sees the world as drowned by the chaotic dangers of magic and does whatever is necessary to stanch magic no matter the cost.

[Gervaise]

Actually looking back in Masked Empire, it was not the Crossroads that caused discomfort to the non-elves but the connecting paths between the pocket realms.   In DAI we don't really get a sense of this since the Crossroads area leads to the eluvians which simply come out straight into other pocket realms or the real world.   In the book they had to keep going between pocket realm and pathways until they finally arrived at the Crossroads.   Each pathway had one way in and one way out.

 

In the pocket realms and at the Crossroads Michel and Gaspard were able to function normally when it came to movement and fighting, as was Celene when she elected to get involved in any of the battles.  There is no real equivalence to the pathways in the game.   This would account for why both our party and the Qunari are able to function normally.

[The Ascendant]

Because the Qunari were lead by Viddasala.

http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Viddasala

I hated that ******. She was like a Qunari version of Petrice. *Shudder*

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I hated that ******.

 

Same here and I enjoyed Solas turning her into a statue. Quite frankly I hate the Qun as well.

[Gervaise]

Logically you would think the Dalish would be reluctant to trust Fen'Harel.   However, assuming he manages to convince them he is the genuine article, telling them that he is planning on releasing their gods after all these years, might do the trick.    Nevertheless we have no idea how he and his supporters are canvassing for support among either the city elves or the Dalish.   Felassan was using clan Virnehn for years without ever having to reveal his true agenda.  I'm pretty sure the Keeper never discovered the location of the entrance to the eluvians or came up with the idea of summoning Imshael entirely on his own.   Of course Felassan probably did subtle manipulation so the Keeper believed it was all his own idea and he had discovered the location through his own study but it does seem very convenient that the Keeper was working on something that Fen'Harel and thus Felassan was specifically interested in.    His agents led the Venatori to discovering his orb and no doubt the Venatori thought they were highly clever in finding it

 

So I would imagine his agents would approach elven communities (city and Dalish) with the idea of restoring elven glory and what they need to do to achieve this.   I wonder if the epilogue slides at the end showing the elves going to join Fen'Harel are just artistic licence or an actual depiction of how they get there, because it is noticeable they seem to be travelling through normal forests.   Does this mean Fen'Harel and his followers are keeping the secret of the eluvians to themselves and only they have access to them for fast travel around the world?

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I am curious about the literacy and education level of the Dalish. I am sure the Keeper, the First and the mages in a Dalish clan are educated, because they are mages but what about the Hunters (Rogues and Warriors) ? Does it vary between specific Hunters ? For example, those who communicate and trade with Humans and those who prepare alchemical brews and traps are more educated than the fighters ? Do the Dalish have access to books ? I saw Merrill having access to some magical books but what about non-magical ones such as language and history ?

[LobselVith8]

I am curious about the literacy and education level of the Dalish. I am sure the Keeper, the First and the mages in a Dalish clan are educated, because they are mages but what about the Hunters (Rogues and Warriors) ? Does it vary between specific Hunters ? For example, those who communicate and trade with Humans and those who prepare alchemical brews and traps are more educated than the fighters ? Do the Dalish have access to books ? I saw Merrill having access to some magical books but what about non-magical ones such as language and history ?

Hunters know how to write; there's a codex entry from a hunter's journal. We also have Cammen, a hunter, in possession of one of the books written by the Keeper; there really isn't much of a reason for him to have it unless he could read it.

[Gervaise]

I should imagine they place a fair bit of emphasis on educating the young to at least read and write in basic terms.    Everyone is invested in recovering the past, so if they come across something they need to know if it is worth recording or if a message they receive from someone is important and should be acted upon.   A lot of lore would be passed down orally as they haven't got room in the aravels for entire libraries of books.   Arianne's clan had the book about eluvians.   I believe not all of it had been translated and in any case it was an ancient tome.   So things like that they would carry around with them for later reference but ordinary history would simply be recounted over an over again until every child knows it by heart.    We see this happening with the lore keeper in DAO both with our own clan and when we visit Zathrian's.

 

It occurred to me when posting elsewhere just how invisible the city elves are in DAI.   Their sole representative, Sera, has nothing to say about them and repudiates the idea she is an elf.  So the person who could have given an insight into what it was like growing up in an alienage says nothing at all on the subject.   We never see an alienage, never get told about any of the abuses by Chevaliers and other nobles, never get a full account of what Celene did to the rebels and their families in Halamshiral (just one passing reference) or why they rebelled in the first place.    In short, if you were a new player, you get no feeling for how the city elves are treated so much worse than anyone else or why they might be enticed into joining the Qun or running off to follow Fen'Harel, or why the Dalish are so determined not to surrender their lifestyle and submit to human rule.   The nearest we get is a few insults thrown about and that really is it.

 

All the elven focus was on either the Dalish or the ancient elves.    It is as though the writers assumed everyone had played the previous games and read all the books, so would know the issues involved.

[IHaveReturned1999]

The Chantry doesn't provide truth, it provides a fantasy. We cannot scientifically prove that there is a Maker or that this Chantry's Cult dogma is of his design. And when asked to provide proof that their teachings are true, they cannot and so Andrastian zealots invoke "faith" because the have no answers. What's even more perplexing is why you would think the elves would have such blind devotion to a dogma that diminishes them in comparison to their human counterparts. This religion is not the Creators, an enlven belief, its a human belief with flimsy empirical evidence to distinguish any of its tales from fiction. The Chantry teaches elves that they are the "lesser", the "other". The Qun does not. It is also because of the Chantry that they are in alienages and lost their home to an Exalted March. They were abused and subjugated. Even if we dismiss all the exclusivity of the Chantry's religion to the elves, you claim that they would still be devoted because they believe its "true". How can they believe its true with little evidence to support that the Maker is real or that the Chantry's dogma is of his design. At the very least, that is the standard of a logical being's devotion. Without it, you claiming the elves zealotry to a fantasy makes little logical sense.
 
The Qun doesn't have any deities. But it does have a philosophy that objectively makes sense. The world is full of chaos because people are ruled by their passions. Many die because of the world's limited resources, who gets to sit on the fancy chair. One could claim that wouldn't happen under the Qun because there is order, structure, and universal understanding. It doesn't take its dogma from fairy tales, only on what they observe in the reality of the world. A code and government based on rationale, not on fairy tales. What if what you believe is the "dark side" is the "truth"- and your belief in Andrastianism is nothing but zealotry in fantasies?

I do agree that the Chantry is nothing but a cult and a political religious sect to keep the system of racism target the elves to remain in the lowest of the low, and have them worship this make-believe god as a way to dive into their subconscious to revere humans as god. And that is why elves should not worship and practice human religion and come up of their own.

[Iakus]

I am curious about the literacy and education level of the Dalish. I am sure the Keeper, the First and the mages in a Dalish clan are educated, because they are mages but what about the Hunters (Rogues and Warriors) ? Does it vary between specific Hunters ? For example, those who communicate and trade with Humans and those who prepare alchemical brews and traps are more educated than the fighters ? Do the Dalish have access to books ? I saw Merrill having access to some magical books but what about non-magical ones such as language and history ?

Just about everyone regardless of race or culture seems to be literate to some degree.

[Iakus]

On the other hand, he may "force" the Dalish to assist him. I mean, this wouldn't be the first time he has done brutal tactics (Felassan's murder and killing the Kirkwall mages comes into mind).

Or simply be charming, cunning, and tell a lot of half-truths.

 

It's how the Dread Wolf is portrayed in the stories, getting the gods to trust him when they have no reason to.  And how he insinuated himself into the Inquisition.

 

Maybe he promises the Dalish he can open the Creators' prison, remake the world as it used to be, with immortal elves and magic everywhere, just like Arlethan of old.  

 

Leaving out the part about how most or even all of them will die, and the Evanuris are very different from the Creators of their stories...

[Gervaise]

That's clearly always been the way he operates.   The warning from the Evanuris says as much.    They speak of how he approaches people as a humble wanderer, who claims to know much about the people, who offers advice that seems fair but turns slowly to poison.   If anything it speaks well of the Dalish that he wasn't able to fool them first time round.   People denigrate them for chasing him away without giving him a proper hearing.   May be they just had really good instincts where he was concerned.    

 

Part of his problem is the fact that if he doesn't reveal who he truly is, then what reason have they to believe his stories, even if he does pull the trick with the stone stare. He is just some strange wandering elf who might just as easily be crazy or possessed.  However, if he reveals he is Fen'Harel, then again what reason have they to trust him when all their legends flag up how untrustworthy he is?   It is why I'll be rather disappointed if they have the entire swathes of Dalish rushing off to join him, because while I can see him fooling some of their number, I'm sure there would be others who would be sceptical and wary of his claims, much less buy into his plans without question.     City elves are more understandable since in the majority of cases, what have they got to lose?    Anything is better than the life they currently have.  

[Vit246]

Leaving out the part about how most or even all of them will die, and the Evanuris are very different from the Creators of their stories...

 

Have the Dalish ever claimed that the Creators were perfectly benevolent or rejected the idea that they were not or whatever?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Not perfectly benevolent perhaps, but generally benevolent enough. They definitely don't believe they are super evil bastards. 

[LobselVith8]

Have the Dalish ever claimed that the Creators were perfectly benevolent or rejected the idea that they were not or whatever?

 

Given what Merrill said about the Dalish not knowing who started the war between the Creators and the Forgotten Ones, it does suggest they were open to the possibility that the Creators struck first. And Merrill praying to Mythal due to Mythal's ruthlessness (not to mention Elgar'nan's own temper tantrum against the Sun) would suggest that the Dalish viewed them with a bit more nuance than some are suggesting.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Given what Merrill said about the Dalish not knowing who started the war between the Creators and the Forgotten Ones, it does suggest they were open to the possibility that the Creators struck first. And Merrill praying to Mythal due to Mythal's ruthlessness (not to mention Elgar'nan's own temper tantrum against the Sun) would suggest that the Dalish viewed them with a bit more nuance than some are suggesting.

 

We've had this discussion before but at the end of the day, unless you think the Dalish already believe the Creators were all as monstrously brutal, arrogant and oppressive as The Temple of Mythal and Trespasser say they were, then yes the Evanuris WERE much different their stories. I think Lavellan even has dialogue saying that very thing about Falon'din in the Temple of Mythal.

[LobselVith8]

We've had this discussion before but at the end of the day, unless you think the Dalish already believe the Creators were all as monstrously brutal, arrogant and oppressive as The Temple of Mythal and Trespasser say they were, then yes the Evanuris WERE much different their stories. I think Lavellan even has dialogue saying that very thing about Falon'din in the Temple of Mythal.

I certainly don't deny that the Creators come across as villainous post-Trespasser - cartoonishly so, in my humble opinion - but as I've said in the past, I'm pointing out that the Dalish didn't think the elven gods were perfect, either.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There's a difference between "not perfect" and "super evil." Given how apparently horrible the Evanuris were, I think whether the Dalish saw them as perfectly benevolent or imperfectly benevolent is largely irrelevant. The end result is the same.

[Iakus]

I certainly don't deny that the Creators come across as villainous post-Trespasser - cartoonishly so, in my humble opinion - but as I've said in the past, I'm pointing out that the Dalish didn't think the elven gods were perfect, either.

But the Dalish clearly want the Creators to return.  They may not be 'perfect" in their minds, but they do see the Creators coming back as a Good Thing.

 

And if Fen'Haral says he can bring them back, they may risk matching wits with him to bring it about

[Vit246]

Far as I'm concerned, both extreme ends of the spectrum would be rather boring. 

[LobselVith8]

But the Dalish clearly want the Creators to return.  They may not be 'perfect" in their minds, but they do see the Creators coming back as a Good Thing.

 

And if Fen'Haral says he can bring them back, they may risk matching wits with him to bring it about

 

You mean the figure that their religious teachings indicate has betrayed numerous people on multiple occasions - including their gods? I see a flaw with that theory already. You might as well argue that templars would join Anders if he offered to restore the Circles.