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Arlathvhen: Bringing together those with elven hearts.


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#1176
Iakus

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You mean the figure that their religious teachings indicate has betrayed numerous people on multiple occasions - including their gods? I see a flaw with that theory already. You might as well argue that templars would join Anders if he offered to restore the Circles.

Some might.  If they are truly desperate.

 

How far do you think some Dalish would go to restore the Arlathen of their dreams?  How many risks would some of them take for a chance at making the People a united Elvhen nation again, and all that comes with it?

 

Remember, although the Dead Wolf does trick people, he also speaks the truth when he says he will do something.  Even if you have to watch for his Exact W ords



#1177
Gervaise

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To be honest we don't know fully how the Dalish may have viewed their gods because we can only go on what we have been given in the past and clearly things were left out even from their own more recent history.    How would a Dalish not know something about the history of Ameridan when his own clan had been claiming ever since that he was one of them?    How would the Dalish know nothing of what happened at Red Crossing when someone had to bury the Emerald Knights in the tomb and seal that history there?    Then Morrigan springs that story on us about Dalish hunting humans by invoking Andruil.    We can repudiate that as a Dalish but if it is true, then surely we would have at least heard rumours about these antics of other clans, which would bring us all into danger and the clan would have been censured at the Arlathaven.  

 

Even so, the story of Elgar'nan does depict a more ruthless, violent sort of person and he is after all called the god of vengeance, so the Dalish realise he isn't a particularly benign god.   It may even be that the stories about the Creators have some degree of truth in them if you think these hark back to the early days, long before the rise of their empire.   We still do not know exactly what the Evanuris were originally.   Flemeth called Mythal the wisp of an ancient being not the wisp of an ancient elf.   The strange depiction of what is likely meant to be Mythal in the Deep Roads in World of Thedas p,.38-39 does not look anything like an elf, neither do any of the statues we see.   DG originally said back in 2009 that the Dalish did not believe the Creators created the world but just what came after.   In other words they were responsible for building up their civilisation from nothing.   (World of Thedas contradicts this by saying that the Dalish believe Mythal created the world).  Still if you interpret this as Mythal and Elgar'nan creating the world of the elves, then the belief is consistent with that earlier assertion.   In that case, everything the Dalish says the Creators originally did for them may have been true.  They did teach them all the skills they needed to survive, about building fires and healing with herbs, about crafting bows and swords, about the value of family and community.   That would explain why they think of them as the Creators and not the Evanuris because the former name belonged to an earlier era when the world was younger and everyone was more innocent.   Even Solas admits that the rot set in after the war in which they were generals.    Then after they were taken away by the Veil and the world of the elves crumbled about them, then their human neighbours preyed on them and enslaved them, it was only natural that they forgot the bad aspects of the Evanuris but recalled rather only the goods things that the Creators had done for them and what a beautiful world they had created for them.    Solas is really no different.   Even though he knows how bad the Evanuris were, he is still nostalgic for the world they created and wants to restore it.   I dare say he even has a rose tinted view of Mythal.  "She was the best of them."   No, she was probably exactly the same as them but she just had a different agenda from the others. 

 

The main argument my Lavellan uses against supporting Fen'Harel is not whether or not he believes his assertions about the Creators but the fact is they just don't need them.   They have managed to survive down to the current time without the aid of any gods and they may not have an actual homeland but as nomads the whole world is their homeland and now Solas wants to even take this from them.   Even the humans couldn't do that. 


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#1178
LobselVith8

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Some might.  If they are truly desperate.

 

I'm sure some might, but I think most wouldn't precisely because of Fen'Harel's place in their religion (which would likely protect them if Solas' plans would hypothetically end all modern life on Thedas).

 

How far do you think some Dalish would go to restore the Arlathen of their dreams?  How many risks would some of them take for a chance at making the People a united Elvhen nation again, and all that comes with it?

 

Considering Fen'Harel is the one making this pitch, I think most Dalish would logically be distrustful of the Dread Wolf.

 

Remember, although the Dead Wolf does trick people, he also speaks the truth when he says he will do something.  Even if you have to watch for his Exact W ords

 

The fact that the tales of the Dalish caution that Fen'Harel tricks people is precisely why I think most Dalish wouldn't join his cause.



#1179
Hellion Rex

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I'm sure some might, but I think most wouldn't precisely because of Fen'Harel's place in their religion (which would likely protect them if Solas' plans would hypothetically end all modern life on Thedas).


Considering Fen'Harel is the one making this pitch, I think most Dalish would logically be distrustful of the Dread Wolf.


The fact that the tales of the Dalish caution that Fen'Harel tricks people is precisely why I think most Dalish wouldn't join his cause.

That's of course assuming that he even told him the truth of his identity. He could posing as someone else, as perhaps one of the other gods.

And to be fair, we did see Dalish going into the woods during the Trespasser ending slides, so we do know that at least some of them are answering the Call.

#1180
Bayonet Hipshot

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I made this post over at General Discussion (Spoilers) and in DA Reddit.

 

General Discussion (Spoilers):- https://forum.biowar...-andrastianism/

 

DA Reddit:- https://www.reddit.c...ritism_towards/

 

It is quite long since it is literally all my thoughts on the matter and it includes thoughts expressed by many here but I have made it as fair and as balanced as I can since Bioware sort of ignore the Dwarven faith as well by inundating us with Andrastian Dwarves and I felt compelled to point that out.

 

I am curious to see how it turns out.


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#1181
Jedi Master of Orion

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Seeing as I'm basically the Ameridan of roleplayers, Bioware has already killed my interest in one of my two favorite types of characters to play in DA with the Trespasser reveals. <_<  I'd really prefer they don't also ruin my other favorite type of character too.

 

Also "inundating?" There were two of them. And DAI takes place almost entirely on the surface, so it's hardly a surprise they'd be more likely to be Andrastian.



#1182
Iakus

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The fact that the tales of the Dalish caution that Fen'Harel tricks people is precisely why I think most Dalish wouldn't join his cause.

He tricks people, but he also helps people who have no where else to turn (again, according to the stories).  For a price.

 

Also, Dread Wolf is living proof of the truth of their stories.  It would be like the spirit of Maferath or Archon Hessarian appearing and saying "Yep, it's all true"

 

The exact nature of the person appearing might cause some to recoil.  But it would make others feel vindicated in their belief.



#1183
LobselVith8

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He tricks people, but he also helps people who have no where else to turn (again, according to the stories). For a price.

Also, Dread Wolf is living proof of the truth of their stories. It would be like the spirit of Maferath or Archon Hessarian appearing and saying "Yep, it's all true"

The exact nature of the person appearing might cause some to recoil. But it would make others feel vindicated in their belief.


That's like saying Christians would join Satan if he simply appeared before them and showed himself to be real. It doesn't make any sense.

Sure, some Dalish might join Fen'Harel, but most? Given their religion and what's taught about Fen'Harel, it simply makes no sense that most would. You would need to disregard so much about Dalish culture and their views in order to facilitate that happening on a massive scale.

#1184
Iakus

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That's like saying Christians would join Satan if he simply appeared before them and showed himself to be real. It doesn't make any sense.

Sure, some Dalish might join Fen'Harel, but most? Given their religion and what's taught about Fen'Harel, it simply makes no sense that most would. You would need to disregard so much about Dalish culture and their views in order to facilitate that happening on a massive scale.

The comparison isn't exactly the same.  Fen'Harel is not a devil.  That would most likely be akin to the Forgotten Ones.  The Dread Wolf is a deity, albeit a trickster.  More like Loki (the Norse myth, not Tom Hiddleston)   

 

I won't speculate on how many Dalish would join Fen'Harel, but I think it would be accurate to say "not inconsiderable amount"  



#1185
The Ascendant

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Solas is not so much Satan as he is Loki. He's often antagonistic true, but he's more of an antihero than the rest of the Aesir and the Vanir. He's managed to build an army in little under two years and regain control of the Eluvians. Obviously he's doing something right if Elves are following him.



#1186
Gervaise

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They might join him but they wouldn't trust him.     If he admits he did shut their gods away, then their stories about him repaying trust with trickery are true.    If he says their gods are not what they believed and he shut them away as punishment, how can they believe him?     He vindicates their faith but there is absolutely no reason to trust him.    They have taught for years that Fen'Harel roamed the Fade ready to prey on the souls passing through it.   They have taught he sat in the Fade giggling to himself with glee that he managed to trick both sets of gods into imprisonment.  He has been used for years as a Dalish curse and a blessing that involves not drawing his attention.   I might go along with him to see what happens but I'd sure be careful in case he ended up trapping me too.


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#1187
LobselVith8

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The comparison isn't exactly the same. Fen'Harel is not a devil. That would most likely be akin to the Forgotten Ones. The Dread Wolf is a deity, albeit a trickster. More like Loki (the Norse myth, not Tom Hiddleston)


It's not meant to be the same in terms of the lore, it's meant to be two equally ridiculous scenarios.

I won't speculate on how many Dalish would join Fen'Harel, but I think it would be accurate to say "not inconsiderable amount"


The trickster God who trapped the Creators and screwed over the elves. Who is reputed for stabbing people in the back. Yeah, I see a few problems with that theory.

#1188
Iakus

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It's not meant to be the same in terms of the lore, it's meant to be two equally ridiculous scenarios.

 

And like I said, if it had been one of the Forgotten Ones, I'd agree.  But the scenario is not as ridiculous as it seems, because Fen'Harel, ,while not a popular god, was still a god.  

 

 

The trickster God who trapped the Creators and screwed over the elves. Who is reputed for stabbing people in the back. Yeah, I see a few problems with that theory.

A trickster god who trapped the Creators, and who could free them again.   Who is reputed for stabbing people in the back, but who also helps people when they have nowhere else to turn.  Given we have seen Dalish turn to blood magic and demon summoning, not to mention the general hardships many clans must go through on a daily basis, I think matching wits with the Dread Wolf for the chance to bring back the Creators is something many Dalish would jump at.  A chance to be the one who outfoxes Fen'Harel and bring about a return of the People.  

 

Or just desperate enough to think things can't possibly get any worse.


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#1189
AlleluiaElizabeth

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That's of course assuming that he even told him the truth of his identity. He could posing as someone else, as perhaps one of the other gods.

And to be fair, we did see Dalish going into the woods during the Trespasser ending slides, so we do know that at least some of them are answering the Call.

Assuming they were in fact real Dalish and not just agents like Felassan who had been posing as Dalish and were now being recalled. My first impression with that ending slide was not that the elves were necessarily flocking to Fen'Harel in droves, but that those were representative of the various spies and agents and ancients that Solas had planted in different places and they were now being recalled to be reassigned/in preparation for the Veil dropping. 

 

Also "inundating?" There were two of them. And DAI takes place almost entirely on the surface, so it's hardly a surprise they'd be more likely to be Andrastian.

I know Varric is outright Andrastian, but who's the second? Harding?

 

Of course the fun thing about the dwarves is that belief in the Stone and Andrastianism don't have to be mutually exclusive.


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#1190
Gervaise

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Do you know I hadn't really thought about the end slides like that before but you could have a point.   It only says elves from the Inquisition and servants from across Thedas are disappearing, which is where his agents would have been.    There is nothing to say the alienages are emptying or the Dalish are flocking to join him, or even know about him (which they won't if the Inquisitor isn't elven and he doesn't tell them).    Felassan had vallaslin, so that elf in the foreground could equally be an agent like him, who wasn't really Dalish at all.    Damn it, now I want to know what is really the case.


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#1191
LobselVith8

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And like I said, if it had been one of the Forgotten Ones, I'd agree.  But the scenario is not as ridiculous as it seems, because Fen'Harel, ,while not a popular god, was still a god.  

 

Who the Dalish believe can't be trusted. Ergo, why I pointed out that it makes no sense.

 

A trickster god who trapped the Creators, and who could free them again.   Who is reputed for stabbing people in the back, but who also helps people when they have nowhere else to turn. 

 

The fact that the Dalish stories talk about his duplicity is precisely the reason why most wouldn't trust him.

 

Given we have seen Dalish turn to blood magic and demon summoning, not to mention the general hardships many clans must go through on a daily basis, I think matching wits with the Dread Wolf for the chance to bring back the Creators is something many Dalish would jump at.

 

We've met one Dalish elf who became a blood mage and we read about one Keeper who summoned an ancient spirit (one of the Forbidden Ones), and even the Keeper would not agree to the terms that the spirit proposed. You would need to toss aside their cultural and religious beliefs in order to argue that the Dalish would side with Fen'Harel en mass.

 

Or just desperate enough to think things can't possibly get any worse.

 

Considering that they haven't submitted to human rule despite the dangers that exist as a nomadic and outlawed group, I'm going to wager that they've already shown that they can hold out for quite a long time.



#1192
Addictress

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I'll adjust to it somewhat, but it's getting old. I mean, even my Inquisitor is like a Genetivi on steroids (i.e. an Indiana Jones type). Heh. So I play it myself. I get some of the appeal.

Revelations are passive on my part though. Exploring the "monomyth" of fantasy worlds is one sided, and self-congratulatory on the campaign creator's part. "Look at my pretty world! Aren't you having so much fun listening to me explain how I made it? Here's another codex."

I'll have more fun just playing in it and being part of new situations. Just like the real world. Stories are everywhere. Few people are talking about how the world was created. They're just living in it.

I'm torn on DA, because it seems like Bioware understands this sometimes. The DAO City Elf tells the little kids in the alienage his own fake stories to inspire them. And you can tell Velanna to create new stories. And the best things DAI did as far as the past goes is retrieve some lost stories of elves who were trying something new. Like Ameridan. Or that human and elf couple, that sparked the conflict at Red Crossing.

So....anyways... I want to pick up those pieces and run with it. I don't want to go back to Arlathan to improve the lives of elves. I doubt it would anyways.


I don't like when history is lresented as codices and slips of paper lying around. I do however like the feeling I got when we realize Solas is FROM ancient Arlathan, and the past is actually more present than you believe. I like the feeling of having an impression of the past, then realizing it was all very different and much more intriguing and relevant to the present day. It's just forming that first impression of the past that's the tricky part.
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#1193
Iakus

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We've met one Dalish elf who became a blood mage and we read about one Keeper who summoned an ancient spirit (one of the Forbidden Ones), and even the Keeper would not agree to the terms that the spirit proposed. You would need to toss aside their cultural and religious beliefs in order to argue that the Dalish would side with Fen'Harel en mass.

 

I never said "en masse" I said "not insignificant number"

 

 

Considering that they haven't submitted to human rule despite the dangers that exist as a nomadic and outlawed group, I'm going to wager that they've already shown that they can hold out for quite a long time.

Sure they haven't submitted to human rule.  But their numbers are dwindling.  Some clans live as little more than bandits.  Some are preyed upon by humans.  Some turn out children who show magical ability because they can't risk detection by the Templars.  They wander Thedas, braving the elements, trading with those who are willing, and doing without otherwise, all the while telling tales about how they were once the masters of Thedas.  They call themselves the "last of the Elvhen" yet live as vagabonds.  That has got to hurt.   It's dangerous to trust the Dread Wolf, but maybe, just maybe, it's worth the risk.



#1194
LobselVith8

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I never said "en masse" I said "not insignificant number"

 

Comparative to what? If most Dalish don't join him, I wouldn't consider that significant.

 

Sure they haven't submitted to human rule.  But their numbers are dwindling. 

 

There's no information that claims that the Dalish are dying out. In Dragon Age II, it was addressed that magic was dying out among the Dalish, which was why some mages were moved between clans - including Merrill.

 

Some turn out children who show magical ability because they can't risk detection by the Templars. 

 

I'm not going to bother discussing the 'three mage recton' because it contradicts what we learned in Origins and Dragon Age II.

 

They wander Thedas, braving the elements, trading with those who are willing, and doing without otherwise, all the while telling tales about how they were once the masters of Thedas.  They call themselves the "last of the Elvhen" yet live as vagabonds.  That has got to hurt.   It's dangerous to trust the Dread Wolf, but maybe, just maybe, it's worth the risk.

 

The "last of the Elvhen" comes from their last stand in the Dales against Chantry forces, a reminder that the Dalish refuse to submit who they are and what they believe in.



#1195
Steelcan

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I don't like this lore therefore it doesn't exist, excellent reasoning

#1196
Xilizhra

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I don't like this lore therefore it doesn't exist, excellent reasoning

What exists is Minaeve's clan. That's it.


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#1197
Steelcan

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What exists is Minaeve's clan. That's it.

until we learn what every clan does we cannot say which practice is most widely used among them. Minaeve's clan might be in the majority, or Lavellan and Sabrae might be.

Regardless, at least one and likely more clans do have this quasi magecide method of control.

#1198
Xilizhra

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until we learn what every clan does we cannot say which practice is most widely used among them. Minaeve's clan might be in the majority, or Lavellan and Sabrae might be.

Regardless, at least one and likely more clans do have this quasi magecide method of control.

Zathrian's clan doesn't do it either, and there's no sign of it from any other. It's very possibly only one.


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#1199
Steelcan

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Zathrian's clan doesn't do it either, and there's no sign of it from any other. It's very possibly only one.

I don't recall hearing what happened to all the mages Lanaya beat out. Or seeing them around the camp

#1200
Xilizhra

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I don't recall hearing what happened to all the mages Lanaya beat out. Or seeing them around the camp

And the Hero of Ferelden never has to sit down except in cutscenes, or slow down from a constant jog.