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[Steelcan]

And the Hero of Ferelden never has to sit down except in cutscenes, or slow down from a constant jog.

the point being, their fate is not explicitly said, so they cantbe brought up as a counter example.

[LobselVith8]

Zathrian's clan doesn't do it either, and there's no sign of it from any other. It's very possibly only one.

 

If the developers wanted to fix this mess, they could adopt the same stance as the short story that fan did and simply have it so that Minaeve was told after the fact by the members of the Chantry what they assumed happened, rather than what actually happened (because the recton does against so much established lore on the Dalish).

 

There's also the fact that Zathrian's clan had more than three mages when we arrived. We also know that Aneirin chose to leave of his own volition, but admits that he follows the clan because he feels indebted to them, and the clan is well aware of his presence (he's even known as 'Aneirin the Healer'). We also have Ariane mention that her clan welcomed an additional mage from the Circle. Merrill comments on how any child with magical ability is apprenticed to a Keeper.

[Iakus]

If the developers wanted to fix this mess, they could adopt the same stance as the short story that fan did and simply have it so that Minaeve was told after the fact by the members of the Chantry what they assumed happened, rather than what actually happened (because the recton does against so much established lore on the Dalish).

 

There's also the fact that Zathrian's clan had more than three mages when we arrived. We also know that Aneirin chose to leave of his own volition, but admits that he follows the clan because he feels indebted to them, and the clan is well aware of his presence (he's even known as 'Aneirin the Healer'). We also have Ariane mention that her clan welcomed an additional mage from the Circle. Merrill comments on how any child with magical ability is apprenticed to a Keeper.

Most likely what is "canon" is what Felessan said in TME:  that the clans are getting more and more..."clannish" and eare each adopting their own traditions and methods of survival.  SOme have the three mage rule to avoid Templars, some don't

[LobselVith8]

Most likely what is "canon" is what Felessan said in TME:  that the clans are getting more and more..."clannish" and eare each adopting their own traditions and methods of survival.  SOme have the three mage rule to avoid Templars, some don't

 

The three mage recton doesn't make sense in general for the Dalish.

[Gervaise]

Let's just remind ourselves just why the Dalish turning away any elf mage, even one from the city, much less a child of their own is just so incompatible with what we know of their lore and beliefs.    The Dalish believe that they were all once possessed of magic, which turns out to be true.   They believe that they need to recover what they can of their ancient lore because when they remember what it is to be a true elf, their gods will return to them.  Part of being a true elf is being able to do magic.   Their clan leader is always a mage.   Merrill states that if anything the clans do not have enough mages and magic is dying out among them.   This would be a cause for serious concern since they are getting further away from what they once were rather than closer to it.  World of Thedas states that "Magic is a proud part of their culture".  Taking all these things into account it is inconceivable they would abandon any child in the woods, let alone a mage child.   At the very least it might be considered it would offend their gods who according to their beliefs have a very strong ethos about loyalty and faith in the family.   

 

We also even have the rather extreme bigoted Keeper in Masked Empire ask of Briala "Is she at least a mage?"   So PW seemed well aware of the original lore concerning mages.   Why would Briala being a mage make a difference to whether or not the Keeper would accept her if the Dalish generally want to keep mage numbers down because they are either terrified of them becoming possessed, as Vivienne suggests is the case, or because they want to avoid the attention of Templars?   World of Thedas also states that "The nomadic Dalish have practiced magic free from Chantry control for generations".   This would seem a strange statement to make if they are limiting their mages owing to the attention of the Chantry controlled Templars.

 

In DAI we have Minaeve recounting her experienced.   We have Vivienne commenting on the practice as though it is common knowledge and we have both Dalish in the Chargers and Bull bring it up in relation to what Dalish in doing there.    That seems more than just one isolated clan.   It is definitely implied this is the norm among the Dalish and if Lavellan denies their clan does it, they are in fact the exception.    It is definitely something that was not there before DAI.

[thats1evildude]

There is the fact that Minaeve was not a particularly talented mage, by her own admission. She wouldn't be much help in a fight and she would be in danger from possession, so she would be even more of a burden.

[Iakus]

The three mage recton doesn't make sense in general for the Dalish.

Not in general.  but perhaps in and about Orlais, where Templars are likely more common and the Chantry at its strongest.

[Qun00]

The comparison isn't exactly the same. Fen'Harel is not a devil. That would most likely be akin to the Forgotten Ones. The Dread Wolf is a deity, albeit a trickster. More like Loki (the Norse myth, not Tom Hiddleston)

Players compare Solas to Loki because from their perspective he is a morally grey character. We have the meta knowledge that allows us to see him that way.

But to the Dalish, he is pure evil. The elven Satan. The Enemy.

[Gervaise]

The Dalish clan in Masked Empire was in Orlais and as I say above, the Keeper there would have been more enthusiastic about taking in Briala if she was a mage.  

 

Mind you I wouldn't look to that clan as being typical or believe anything that Felassan says about the Dalish.   He is prejudiced.   Look at who his leader is.   

 

With regard to their attitude to city elves, they are definitely the exception, not just compared with the three clans we know about: Sabrae, Zathrian's and Lavellan, but also the lore about the Dalish given in the Dragon Age Core Rule Book 2015.   This states about the Dalish that: "They have taken it upon themselves to preserve elven culture and lore, so when the day comes that the elves once again have a homeland they can teach the ancient ways to their city elf brethren."   My emphasis.  

 

So contrary to the way the Dalish are depicted and spoken about in Masked Empire, they are not self indulgent pompous idiots so wrapped up in the past they care nothing for the city elves because in fact they are the very people for whom they are preserving this heritage.  The Keeper's assertion that the elves in the alienages are "poor cousins, lost to us forever", flies in the face of this lore about the Dalish.  If they are lost to them forever, then how will they be able to teach them when they re-establish a homeland?   We're not just talking about religion here either, but all those practical survival skills that the Dalish have maintained in order to stay alive.    So Sabrae and Zathrian's willingness to take in city elves and the Lavellan Keeper's refusal to abandon the city elves in order to flee danger are in keeping with what is meant to be the Dalish attitude to city elves and Felassan letting Briala think otherwise was a bare faced lie.   That clan in Masked Empire was the exception.

 

I don't know exactly where the lore for this Core Rule Book comes from but it is approved by Bioware, published under their logo and special acknowledgements are given to David Gaider and Mike Laidlaw among others, as well as the general team at Bioware, so this would appear to be taken from something official other than the material in World of Thedas.

[LobselVith8]

Not in general.  but perhaps in and about Orlais, where Templars are likely more common and the Chantry at its strongest.

 

Which, again, makes no sense because we're treating the Dalish as if they have Andrastian views on magic, and they are culturally and religiously different than Andrastians. There is a heavy emphasis on how the clan takes care of each other in Origins, further emphasized by Merrill explaining that she doesn't understand the point of the Chantry because the clan will take care of another one - and concepts like orphans seem strange to her because of the strong bonds within the clan. It's a rather problematic recton that goes against two games of established lore.

[thats1evildude]

I am shocked, SHOCKED, that a disorganized collection of roaming clans scattered across a continent would develop different beliefs and views.

[LobselVith8]

I am shocked, SHOCKED, that a disparate group of roaming clans scattered across a continent would develop different beliefs and views.

 

Well, some of us see little reason to go against established lore and treat the Dalish as if they should have the same views on magic as Andrastian humans do, considering they're supposed to be a different culture with their own religious views on magic - one that says that "magic is a gift of the Creators".

[thats1evildude]

I'm failing to see how "We can't support too many mages in the clan lest the templars attack us" is the same as "We need to lock up all the mages."

[LobselVith8]

I'm failing to see how "We can't support too many mages in the clan" is the same as "We need to lock up all the mages."

 

Well, when Iron Bull and Vivienne frame it as an issue of not having templars, I see the 'three mage recton' as an attempt to treat the Dalish as if they share the Andrastian mindset on magic and mages.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

the point being, their fate is not explicitly said, so they cantbe brought up as a counter example.

Point goes to Steelcan on this one, Xil.

 

 

There is the fact that Minaeve was not a particularly talented mage, by her own admission. She wouldn't be much help in a fight and she would be in danger from possession, so she would be even more of a burden.

Would they know that at 7 years old, though?

[Gervaise]

The writers themselves equate the two things.    Minaeve only says she was abandoned because her clan had one too many mages.    Then Vivienne brings it up in the context of why you need Templars.    Then Bull brings it up again giving the same reason.   Because the Dalish don't have Templars they need to keep their numbers down so they can control their mages.   That is Chantry thinking pure and simple.    The Rivaini don't need Templars and their people are comfortable in the present of wise women who become deliberately possessed.   The Avaar are comfortable in the presence of their mages and use spirits to possess and teach their children.    No one suggests that either of these two groups have differing beliefs from village to village or clan to clan.   It is part of the general culture and heritage.   It would be the same for the Dalish.   There would be certain things that might differ between them but the attitude to magic is part of their core beliefs.

[thats1evildude]

Well, when Iron Bull and Vivienne frame it as an issue of not having templars, I see the 'three mage recton' as an attempt to treat the Dalish as if they share the Andrastian mindset on magic and mages.

That's you, though. You've got a pretty strong bias towards anything Andrastian, to the point where I remember you protesting that Corypheus just can't, CAN'T have been to the Black City because that would mean the Chantry actually got one thing right.

I don't see it as a slide towards Andrastian beliefs on magic. I see it as one clan deciding they didn't want to get slaughtered by Templars and/or abominations for the sake of one rather shitty mage.

Childhood abandonment was pretty darn common in medieval eras, especially for families with too little money and too many kids. "Sheltering this child will get us all killed" seems just as valid a reason to send a child out into the woods on her own.

[Xilizhra]

Point goes to Steelcan on this one, Xil.

An utterly worthless point, as we still have two counterexamples to the one example.

 

 

The writers themselves equate the two things.    Minaeve only says she was abandoned because her clan had one too many mages.    Then Vivienne brings it up in the context of why you need Templars.    Then Bull brings it up again giving the same reason.   Because the Dalish don't have Templars they need to keep their numbers down so they can control their mages.   That is Chantry thinking pure and simple.    The Rivaini don't need Templars and their people are comfortable in the present of wise women who become deliberately possessed.   The Avaar are comfortable in the presence of their mages and use spirits to possess and teach their children.    No one suggests that either of these two groups have differing beliefs from village to village or clan to clan.   It is part of the general culture and heritage.   It would be the same for the Dalish.   There would be certain things that might differ between them but the attitude to magic is part of their core beliefs.

Vivienne's misinformed, and Bull's Dalish is a liar. I know that for a fact, because if she was exiled for having magic, she'd never have vallaslin.

[Gervaise]

I never suggested any such thing about the Black City.   I think I was one of the first people to start banging on about the 3 mage rule because it was so incongruous with Dalish beliefs about magic and family.      She was a young child.    That clan must have had a pretty useless Keeper if they thought they couldn't teach her properly to protect her.     Besides it wasn't just one clan because Dalish was from a different clan, where at least the Keeper kicked out the oldest mage, who could better fend for herself, than the youngest.     The clans move on frequently so they avoid the attention of Templars, they don't simply abandon their mages.   Besides would the Templars really care if it was one apostate or two or three?  The reason given though was not to avoid the Templars but because they didn't have Templars and if they had more than 3 mages they would be in danger of being torn apart by abominations.   If you are that afraid, then having even one mage would be one too many and guess what, they always have at least one mage because they are the Keeper leading the clan.   I really don't understand how anyone cannot see how absurdly illogical this is.

 

It is all very well saying Vivienne is misinformed or Bull a liar but that is the impression the game gives to those not familiar with the lore of the Dalish.   If the writers choose to use that as the reason it was presented this way in the future in order to correct the mistake, all well and good, but at present that is how they have chosen to show the Dalish attitude to mages, which is in contradiction to all previous lore in games and source books.   A new player would not know this though. 

[LobselVith8]

That's you, though. You've got a pretty strong bias towards anything Andrastian, to the point where I remember you protesting that Corypheus just can't, CAN'T have been to the Black City because that would mean the Chantry actually got one thing right.

 

Actually, I said Corypheus' dialogue about how the City was black indicates that it may have always been Black. I also said that I didn't see why Anders thought that the Chantry was right given what Corypheus said about finding the City to be Black, as well as his own story arc opposing what the Chantry is doing with the Circles. You seem to have misinterpreted a great deal of what I said on the subject.

 

I don't see it as a slide towards Andrastian beliefs on magic. I see it as one clan deciding they didn't want to get slaughtered by Templars and/or abominations for the sake of one rather shitty mage.

 

Given the dialogue from Vivienne and Iron Bull that ties it to the lack of Templars among the Dalish, I see it as the writers trying to position the Dalish with an Andrastian mindset.

 

Childhood abandonment was pretty darn common in medieval eras, especially for families with too little money and too many kids. "Sheltering this child will get us all killed" seems just as valid a reason to send a child out into the woods on her own.

 

The notion contradicts what Merrill says about mages and how the clan looks after one another. Gervaise has also addressed these issues in more detail.

[thats1evildude]

Vivienne's misinformed, and Bull's Dalish is a liar. I know that for a fact, because if she was exiled for having magic, she'd never have vallaslin.

Unless she got her own tattoo. Could be why it's that odd bright green colour.

Given the dialogue from Vivienne and Iron Bull that ties it to the lack of Templars among the Dalish, I see it as the writers trying to position the Dalish with an Andrastian mindset.

But the Andrastian mindset is NOT to let mages run loose.

[Iakus]

Which, again, makes no sense because we're treating the Dalish as if they have Andrastian views on magic, and they are culturally and religiously different than Andrastians. There is a heavy emphasis on how the clan takes care of each other in Origins, further emphasized by Merrill explaining that she doesn't understand the point of the Chantry because the clan will take care of another one - and concepts like orphans seem strange to her because of the strong bonds within the clan. It's a rather problematic recton that goes against two games of established lore.

What I mean is if a clan has too many mages, it would draw the attention of the Templars.  Templars may come after them anyway for harboring mages, of course,  But perhaps they may not bother to take on an entire clan for one apostate and an apprentice or two.

[LobselVith8]

What I mean is if a clan has too many mages, it would draw the attention of the Templars. Templars may come after them anyway for harboring mages, of course, But perhaps they may not bother to take on an entire clan for one apostate and an apprentice or two.

Templars already come after them for having mages; Ariane protected her clan from at least one templar, and even Clan Sabrae dealt with templars torturing one of their children to capture Feynriel.

[Xilizhra]

Unless she got her own tattoo. Could be why it's that odd bright green colour.

A much more extraordinary event than her lying, and thus will require more extraordinary proof.

[LobselVith8]

An utterly worthless point, as we still have two counterexamples to the one example.

True, Zathrian's clan still has more than three mages, so it's still a valid example.