1599 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Most likely what is "canon" is what Felessan said in TME:  that the clans are getting more and more..."clannish" and eare each adopting their own traditions and methods of survival.  SOme have the three mage rule to avoid Templars, some don't

 

This is my take on the whole situation too. The three mage rule doesn't really match with what we see of clans before, but since Lavellan can say outright that his or her clan doesn't have that practice, that doesn't mean it's meant to be a universal practice and a retcon for the clans we've seen before.

 

Also, Iron Bull's Dalish mage doesn't necessarily need to have been in exactly the same situation as Minaeve. She is from a different clan, presumably. She might well have been encouraged to leave when she was older. As in not abandoned in the forest when she was a defenseless child.

[The Ascendant]

The Dalish don't really have the resources to deal with surplus mages do they? At least City Elf Mages get a decent education at the Circle. But I suppose that not every mage can be an all powerful archmage in the same way not every mundane is a brilliant warrior or rogue.

[LobselVith8]

The Dalish don't really have the resources to deal with surplus mages do they? At least City Elf Mages get a decent education at the Circle. But I suppose that not every mage can be an all powerful archmage in the same way not every mundane is a brilliant warrior or rogue.

Merrill talked about how any child with magical ability was apprenticed to the Keeper, so there was no indication that this was even an issue. Magic was also supposed to be dying out among the Dalish:

"As each generation passes, magic becomes more rare among the Dalish. As the gift dies out, talented children are moved between clans so that every Keeper has a successor, and no clan is in danger of being left without guidance."

[Gervaise]

Please why do you need resources to deal with surplus mages?    It is a simple enough thing to give a child a rudimentary education.   They are not training to undertake dangerous magical experiments.   The mages in the clan are mostly going to be involved in healing and making potions and the odd bit of defensive magic.  The Dalish deliberately stay clear of any magic involving spirits because they know they are dangerous.    However, the entire clan have been trained to survive in hostile environments, filled with dangerous creatures.    If the mage should become possessed they would be better equipped to deal with it than the average human peasant or alienage elf.    It is a proud part of the heritage and they would have developed systems of training mages while still part of the Dales.   

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Unless she got her own tattoo. Could be why it's that odd bright green colour.

I think what Gervaise said is more likely and Dalish's clan just kicked out the mage that was oldest and had the best shot at making a go of it. Dalish could have been anywhere from mid-to-late teens onward and gotten her vallaslin. Heck, it might have been a parting gift. Make her an official adult before she goes kinda thing.

 

@Gervaise: As for the illogicalness of the 3 mage rule, I can see the point. However, consider the following: 

 

Regarding the idea that, "if they're that afraid of abominations, then why keep any mages at all?". The simple answer to that is tradition and the Dalish desire to cling to whatever tradition they still have. The 3 mage rule could be seen as a balance btwn the desire to keep to the old way of having a mage run the group (which I personally think might be a hold over from all the way back in pre-veil Arlathan) and the danger of a clan being overwhelmed if a mage goes abomination.

 

You have a Keeper and an heir (the First) that that the Keeper can devote all their time and spare attention to teaching, decreasing the potential for (aggressive) possession as much as possible.

 

You add a spare heir (the Second) to that and you stretch your resources a bit. You also have a mage who's possibly gotten less personal attention and training from the master, and who may also have more cause to feel jealousy and other negative demon-attracting emotions towards the more favored First (for example: as Lanaya basically says the dalish mages she beat out for the position of First felt toward her). There's more chance of a bad situation resulting, though its still manageable. And its necessary to accept the risk, in case the spare is actually needed.

 

Now, a third mage is even more of a risk with less justification to take that risk. They have the increased strain on resources and resulting possibility to fall into possession due to lack of preparedness, plus the possible Bhelen-like feelings of the thirdborn who feels they should be the next to be in charge. And yet they have none of the benefit to the chain of succession the Second does, only being truly needed if somehow the First and Second both get taken out of the picture. This leaves the clan with the incentive to either pass off a third (and definitely a fourth or fifth) mage to another clan who is lacking in mages, or to turn out one or more of the mages in the clan. 

 

Now, its true that even one mage could become an abomination. But the three mage rule seems to be an attempt to strike a balance between the desire to keep the Keeper tradition alive and the realities of the Dalish system of Keeper succession and the scarcity of their resources (like being unable to group together with other clans and have some kind of school system that could free up the Keepers from the responsibility of typically being the sole teachers of magic for their clan's mages while also acting as chieftain of the clan as a whole). Yes, one or two mages per clan is still a risk, but its one they're willing to accept b/c the return is worth it. Three or more seems to be the point of diminishing returns.

 

 

True, Zathrian's clan still has more than three mages, so it's still a valid example.

It does? We have Lanaya. Zathrien, himself. Who else am I forgetting?

[Iakus]

Templars already come after them for having mages; Ariane protected her clan from at least one templar, and even Clan Sabrae dealt with templars torturing one of their children to capture Feynriel.

Yes, but around Orlais there are likely more Templars.  And laying low may be a good idea.

[LobselVith8]

It does? We have Lanaya. Zathrien, himself. Who else?

Given that they're supposed to have the Keeper, First, and Second, they had Aneirin the Healer (for a time, until he voluntarily left, but still tags along close to the clan because he said he feels indebted to them) and Elora, who is the halla herder.

And that's assuming the several others who Lanaya competed against were moved to other clans due to magic dying out among the Dalish.

[Gervaise]

Well a lot depends on how close the mages are to one another in age.    If there is that big a difference, the Keeper might well make her First responsible for the initial teaching of the younger mages.   The mage who was killed on the Exalted Plains had been jealous of being passed over but they weren't possessed or killed because of that but through using blood magic.   Now we know that mages are banished from the clan for using forbidden magic and that includes blood magic.   So it is entirely possible that Dalish had been dabbling in something she shouldn't and that is why the Keeper kicked her out.   Naturally she wouldn't admit as much to Bull.    I think it highly unlikely that Minaeve had been doing that though.  

 

You also have to question how great the danger of possession is.    The incidence of possession is greater in Circles simply because the Veil is thinner where there has been a lot of magical activity.   It also seems clear that the greater the fear of possession, the more likely it is to occur.   It is a sort of self fulfilling prophesy.   It is odd how this aspect was totally ignored in DAI concerning mages generally.   It was only brought up by Vivienne and of course she then makes a big deal of the Dalish being wary of possessed mages at the same time.   I would still contrast the attitude of the Dalish compared with the Avaar or the Rivaini, two other cultures that are have very ancient traditions that have grown up totally separate from the Chantry and where Templars aren't necessary even though both traditions are dabbling very closely with spirits.   It is odd how the subject of possession was only brought up in a positive way in connection with these cultures and their people revere and are quite happy with mages in their communities.    

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Please why do you need resources to deal with surplus mages?    It is a simple enough thing to give a child a rudimentary education.   They are not training to undertake dangerous magical experiments.   The mages in the clan are mostly going to be involved in healing and making potions and the odd bit of defensive magic.  The Dalish deliberately stay clear of any magic involving spirits because they know they are dangerous.    However, the entire clan have been trained to survive in hostile environments, filled with dangerous creatures.    If the mage should become possessed they would be better equipped to deal with it than the average human peasant or alienage elf.    It is a proud part of the heritage and they would have developed systems of training mages while still part of the Dales.   

 

Regarding the bolded, they're still mages and performing magic dealing with spirits at some point or another is likely to happen. Clan Virhen, Merrill, Marethari, Zathrien, among others in history I'm sure. If it was as easy as just educating people and telling them to avoid spirits, the Circles wouldn't exist.  Plus there's the fact that demons are attracted by emotion and you can't very well help what you feel. 

 

A clan could take an abomination or a demon down, I think. Well, maybe not a Pride Demon (much less w/e the heck Imshael qualifies as), but something not as powerful? Yes. But the losses in that fight could still be devastating, especially given the relatively small size of a Dalish clan. Its still a risk, one the three mage rule allows them to try to mitigate.

 

 

Given that they're supposed to have the Keeper, First, and Second, they had Aneirin the Healer (for a time, until he voluntarily left, but still tags along close to the clan because he said he feels indebted to them) and Elora, who is the halla herder.

And that's assuming the several others who Lanaya competed against were moved to other clans due to magic dying out among the Dalish.

Elora is a mage? I guess I missed that. And do we ever actually see the Second? Or are we just assuming at least one of the mages Lanaya beat out became it?

[LobselVith8]

Yes, but around Orlais there are likely more Templars. And laying low may be a good idea.

Considering that there are templars all over the Andrastian kingdoms and that the Dalish are already targeted no matter where they go (which is why they're nomadic), I don't agree.

[Qun00]

True, Zathrian's clan still has more than three mages, so it's still a valid example.

What mages? There is just Zathrian and Lanaya. I've seen the halla keeper and the healer being mentioned, but there is no evidence that they wield magic.

It's also strange that people take her statement that she competed with other mages as meaning that there was a hundred of them.

And even so, the losers probably were relocated to other clans.

[LobselVith8]

What mages? There is just Zathrian and Lanaya. I've seen the halla keeper and the healer being mentioned, but there is no evidence that they wield magic.

It's also strange that people take her statement that she competed with other mages as meaning that there was a hundred of them.

And even so, the losers probably were relocated to other clans.

Aneirin was originally from the Circle (he has healing magic - that's why he's called the Healer by Zathrian's clan), and Elora is a mage - she even uses magic if you attack the clan with the werewolves.

It's also strange that people take her statement that she competed with other mages as meaning that there was a hundred of them.

She said she competed with several others, so some of us take that to mean that she competed against several others.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

I would still contrast the attitude of the Dalish compared with the Avaar or the Rivaini, two other cultures that are have very ancient traditions that have grown up totally separate from the Chantry and where Templars aren't necessary even though both traditions are dabbling very closely with spirits.   It is odd how the subject of possession was only brought up in a positive way in connection with these cultures and their people revere and are quite happy with mages in their communities.    

Just b/c the Rivaini and the Avvar have different ways of interacting with the Fade doesn't mean it makes no sense the Dalish would have a three mage rule. Its apples and oranges. There's no causation btwn the three groups. Could they learn to emulate the Rivaini or the Avvar? Yes. Can you argue they *should*? Yes. Does that mean they will? No.  They're the Dalish, not the Avvar or the Rivaini, and they apparently wish to do their own thing. And, in current lore, this is it.

 

That said, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if we find out the clan(s?) that live in or near Rivain have actually adopted these practices.

 

... Assuming elves even can adopt the practice of cooperative possession. Given their possible origin as a species as spirits themselves, there may be unforseen complications for elves in this area. But that's way out in the theoretical weeds right now. 

[Gervaise]

You mistake me, I'm not saying the Dalish can learn from the other two examples, I'm using them to show cultures that have grown up independently of the Chantry.    The problem I have with the 3 mage rule as given is that it smacks too much of Chantry teaching.    The Dalish would have been training their children while still part of the Dales.   They would have established traditions and methods, plus ways of dealing with any problems, entirely independently.    This would not have involved Circles because that is a Chantry thing.   (I'm not even sure what Tevinter had in the old days).     Likely it involved older mages teaching younger mages.   There would not have been huge numbers of these even then, so one older mage might well have had care for several younger ones in the same clan or area.    So the situation would be far more similar to the Avaar or the Rivaini than what we think of as the norm in Chantry controlled countries.     When they fled the Dales, the systems they had established in their homeland would go with them and be adapted to life on the move.   

 

The fear of possessed mages is part of Chantry controlled cultures and dogma.   It has some basis in fact but it is also the result of their attitude to mages.   It just seems that the Dalish attitude is too close to this and being raised as it is by Vivienne in the conversation about the necessity for Templars makes one suspect that it was introduced by the writes to counter the argument frequently made on these board prior to DAI that the Dalish manage perfectly okay without Templars, so why the necessity for them?    Instead of answering this in some other way, they just made the Dalish have this stupid rule and gave fear of possession as the reason.

[Xilizhra]

And, in current lore, this is it.

That is one clan's "it."

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Some degree of restriction on magic is not something that is inherently rooted in Chantry teaching. It's not like the Qunari didn't come up with their own teachings on magic independently. And I'm sure the attitude on magic would vary dramatically beyond Thedas borders as well.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

That is one clan's "it."

We know two clans that do it (assuming Dalish and Minaeve aren't part of the same clan), two clans that don't seem to do it (Lavellan and Zathrien's), and two clans where we don't know what they do in the case of having too many mages and no other clan to take them off their hands (Sabrae and Virhen).

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

The fear of possessed mages is part of Chantry controlled cultures and dogma.   It has some basis in fact but it is also the result of their attitude to mages.   It just seems that the Dalish attitude is too close to this and being raised as it is by Vivienne in the conversation about the necessity for Templars makes one suspect that it was introduced by the writes to counter the argument frequently made on these board prior to DAI that the Dalish manage perfectly okay without Templars, so why the necessity for them?    Instead of answering this in some other way, they just made the Dalish have this stupid rule and gave fear of possession as the reason.

 

Chantry culture isn't the only culture that would worry about possession. The Avvar worry about possession, too. Specifically, when possession goes bad, but still. Its a concern over an abomination. Isn't there a quest in the Frostback Basin where you have to convince an augur to give up and separate from their spirit mentor b/c it could go bad if they stay much longer? And the other Avvar are threatening to kill them if they don't do it as a safeguard against a dangerous abomination? It goes to show that possession and dangerous abominations are a reality that happen and cultures have to deal with them, regardless of their take on spirits.

 

I see no reason why (some) Dalish shouldn't have the attitude they apparently have towards spirits and the risks of possession vs the rewards of keeping a certain amount of mages in their clan. You can say its similar to the Chantry's approach in some senses, but I think its really only being pragmatic. It just so happens that, at its core, the Chantry's general attitude towards possession and mages shares this pragmatism.

[Xilizhra]

We know two clans that do it (assuming Dalish and Minaeve aren't part of the same clan), two clans that don't seem to do it (Lavellan and Zathrien's), and two clans where we don't know what they do in the case of having too many mages and no other clan to take them off their hands (Sabrae and Virhen).

Dalish, as mentioned before by myself, is a liar. One clan.

[thats1evildude]

Chantry culture isn't the only culture that would worry about possession. The Avvar worry about possession, too. Specifically, when possession goes bad, but still. Its a concern over an abomination. Isn't there a quest in the Frostback Basin where you have to convince an augur to give up and separate from their spirit mentor b/c it could go bad if they stay much longer? And the other Avvar are threatening to kill them if they don't do it as a safeguard against a dangerous abomination? It goes to show that possession and dangerous abominations are a reality that happen and cultures have to deal with them, regardless of their take on spirits.

I see no reason why (some) Dalish shouldn't have the attitude they apparently have towards spirits and the risks of possession vs the rewards of keeping a certain amount of mages in their clan. You can say its similar to the Chantry's approach in some senses, but I think its really only being pragmatic. It just so happens that, at its core, the Chantry's general attitude towards possession and mages shares this pragmatism.

I would note that Merrill herself says that Keepers can be possessed. When that happens, the clan must hunt and kill their own Keeper. Also, notes by the Venatori in the Hissing Wastes indicate they were concerned about one of their number falling to possession.

It's not like the Chantry and the Qunari are the only groups concerned about abominations.

[sandalisthemaker]

An utterly worthless point, as we still have two counterexamples to the one example.

 

 

Vivienne's misinformed, and Bull's Dalish is a liar. I know that for a fact, because if she was exiled for having magic, she'd never have vallaslin.

 

How can you prove that Vivienne is 'misinformed'? 

 

What if they kicked Dalish out after she got her Vallaslin?  We can't assume she got kicked out as a child simply because Minaeve was kicked out as a child.

 

What if they kicked her out because they knew she'd have a better chance of fending for herself than, say, a fledgling child mage who caused the clan to surpass their limit?   They could have chosen to keep the child and teach him/her and kicked Dalish out. 

[The Ascendant]

On one hand it sucks to be kicked out of your clan, but you get to travel the world, experience things that most Dalish never could. So it's a mixed bag of nuts, some good some bad.

[Steelcan]

How can you prove that Vivienne is 'misinformed'? 

 

What if they kicked Dalish out after she got her Vallaslin?  We can't assume she got kicked out as a child simply because Minaeve was kicked out as a child.

 

What if they kicked her out because they knew she'd have a better chance of fending for herself than the fledgling child mage who caused the clan to surpass their limit?   They could have chosen to keep the child and teach him/her and kicked Dalish out. 

well its quite simple really, the points these characters raise are inconvenient to Xil's argument, therefore they are invalid

[Qun00]

50 paaaaaaaaaaeeg!!!!


Uh... proceed, lethallin.

[Xilizhra]

How can you prove that Vivienne is 'misinformed'?

There's no evidence that she isn't, certainly.

 

 

What if they kicked Dalish out after she got her Vallaslin?  We can't assume she got kicked out as a child simply because Minaeve was kicked out as a child.

The latest I've heard magic manifesting is about 8, and I very much doubt she was considered an adult by then.

 

 

What if they kicked her out because they knew she'd have a better chance of fending for herself than, say, a fledgling child mage who caused the clan to surpass their limit?   They could have chosen to keep the child and teach him/her and kicked Dalish out. 

That would be a terrible policy if one hoped to maintain internal stability, if a mage's apprenticeship could be revoked and replaced with exile by an accident of birth. Given that she already appears to be a pathological liar when it comes to her being a mage at all, my explanation requires rather fewer leaps.