That would be a terrible policy if one hoped to maintain internal stability, if a mage's apprenticeship could be revoked and replaced with exile by an accident of birth. Given that she already appears to be a pathological liar when it comes to her being a mage at all, my explanation requires rather fewer leaps.
you should go to the Olympics for jumping to conclusions
There's no evidence that she isn't, certainly.
The latest I've heard magic manifesting is about 8, and I very much doubt she was considered an adult by then.
That would be a terrible policy if one hoped to maintain internal stability, if a mage's apprenticeship could be revoked and replaced with exile by an accident of birth. Given that she already appears to be a pathological liar when it comes to her being a mage at all, my explanation requires rather fewer leaps.
I'm not saying it's a wise game plan, but it is a possibility that can't be dismissed. But again, an adult Dalish has a better chance at survival alone in the forest, or wherever the clan was at the time, than a small child does. That's what the clan's mindset could have been.
I'm not saying it's a wise game plan, but it is a possibility that can't be dismissed. But again, Dalish has a better chance at survival alone in the forest, or wherever the clan finds themselves, than a small child does. That's what the clan's mindset could have been.
It's possible, theoretically. I think it's more likely that she's a liar.
It's possible, theoretically. I think it's more likely that she's a liar.
or the person making her model didn't know/care about such a small detail
or the person making her model didn't know/care about such a small detail
That's true. It could have been an error/oversight. The designer could also have just given her Vallaslin simply to get it across visually to the audience that she is/was a Dalish elf.
That's true. It could have been an error/oversight. The designer could also have just given her Vallaslin to get it across visually to the audience that she is/was a Dalish elf.
Aside from putting her in Dalish armor, which they did?
Aside from putting her in Dalish armor, which they did?
True, but a bright green facial tattoo is going to grab attention where armor might not. Who knows what they were thinking, or again, if they were even mindful of any possible inconsistency at all when designing Dalish the Charger.
She could have done something that marked her as more 'deserving' of being kicked out instead of the child mage. Some sort of wrongdoing- perhaps she broke a rule or something.
So there is a 3 mage rule. Assuming that includes the Keeper themself, that would consist of: the Keeper, the First, and presumably a spare in case something happens to the Keeper's first.
The Arlathvhens happen once every 10 years, right? What if the clans can't afford to wait for the next one to swap mages? That could account for this 3 mage limit.
Dalish could have been the spare, and the new mage child could have replaced her as the new spare. If yet another mage child is born (mage child "B"), perhaps that child could replace the mage child "A" who replaced Dalish (who could by then be old enough to have his/her own Vallaslin) and is then kicked out just as Dalish was. Mage child "A" would be old enough to have a better chance of surviving than mage child B.
Or perhaps by then, an Arlathvhen would have occurred, and mage child A could be transferred to another clan.
Or, if mage child A is still too young to fend for themself, they could choose to get rid of mage child B, since mage child B would be a larger drain on resources since they are younger and more time is needed before they become a productive adult member of the clan. That could have been what happened to Minaeve.
She could have done something that marked her as more 'deserving' of being kicked out instead of the child mage. Some sort of wrongdoing- perhaps she broke a rule or something.
My suspicion is that she murdered someone.
So there is a 3 mage rule.
In one clan.
The Arlathvhens happen once every 10 years, right? What if the clans can't afford to wait for the next one to swap mages? That could account for this 3 mage limit.
According to all previous lore, this isn't an option, and the most reasonable assumption is that Minaeve's clan is an aberration, probably like Virnehn in its wickedness.
My suspicion is that she murdered someone.
In one clan.
According to all previous lore, this isn't an option, and the most reasonable assumption is that Minaeve's clan is an aberration, probably like Virnehn in its wickedness.
She's a bit odd, so who knows?
The game certainly presents the 3 mage rule to be a thing. At least within the context of this one game.
Well, what does it say when we keep getting examples of clans that are "aberrations?" What is the quintessential Dalish clan like? I don't think we even have an example of that.
Well, we know thanks to Solas that not all Dalish clans are the same. He emphasized in the relationship with humans, but this can also means there are different stances about magic among the clans.
Well, we know thanks to Solas that not all Dalish clans are the same. He emphasized in the relationship with humans, but this can also means there are different stances about magic among the clans.
Yeah, there is this contradiction. We get 'not all clans are the same,' and at the same time we get, 'Dalish clans have a mage limit,' from 3 sources in DAI, presented as some sort of hard and fast rule.
3 sources? I was only aware of Minaeve illogical story... And I disregard whatever the "archer" of Bull's Chargers said, because she is a mythomaniac.
3 sources? I was only aware of Minaeve illogical story... And I disregard whatever the "archer" of Bull's Chargers said, because she is a mythomaniac.
Minaeve, Vivienne, and yeah, Iron Bull and Dalish.
There is no clear evidence to say that all three, four really, are lying or are mistaken- especially since two of those people were members of Dalish clans themselves.
The game certainly presents the 3 mage rule to be a thing. At least within the context of this one game.
Characters in a game do. Not the game.
Well, what does it say when we keep getting examples of clans that are "aberrations?" What is the quintessential Dalish clan like? I don't think we even have an example of that.
I think only Virnehn and Minaeve's clan are the true aberrations.
Minaeve, Vivienne, and yeah, Iron Bull and Dalish.
There is no clear evidence to say that all three, four really, are lying or are mistaken- especially since two of those people were members of Dalish clans themselves.
There's also no evidence for their claims. And every word out of Bull's Dalish's mouth is a lie.
Characters in a game do. Not the game.
I think only Virnehn and Minaeve's clan are the true aberrations.
There's also no evidence for their claims. And every word out of Bull's Dalish's mouth is a lie.
We learn a lot about the world of Dragon Age through the mouths of the characters in the game. If you want to disregard what they are saying, that's fine, but I don't think everyone can just write them off as liars. With the way the fandom has latched onto the Dalish mage limit, the writers may end up further elaborating on it, doubling down on it, or even reversing it altogether.
Well, odds are good that they will present us with another clan in the next game which will build the case on what is typical and what is atypical.
If you mean to say that literally everything Dalish speaks in game is a lie, then I think you may actually be right, since Bull is the one who explains Dalish's backstory to the player, and the only thing I remember Dalish actually saying is, "It's a bow," and, "It's an old elven trick. You wouldn't understand."
Also, I keep reading about Merrill's dialogue regarding magic/mages in the Dalish clans as evidence of how DA:I retconned things.
But isn't Merrill herself atypical or even contradictory in her views? The other members of her clan seem to be rather anti-blood magic, and yet we have Merrill using it and saying it is just a tool and not inherently bad, and it seems to be what is putting her at odds with her clan. Also, the Dalish are said to be wary of spirits, viewing them all as dangerous, which Merrill even says one minute, and the next she says all spirits are different and she gains rivalry when Hawke refuses to deal with demons.
What if Merrill's views are the aberration?
Also, I keep reading about Merrill's dialogue regarding magic/mages in the Dalish clans as evidence of how DA:I retconned things.
Along with Merrill's codex addressing that magic is dying out among the Dalish, which is the reason why mages are sometimes moved between clans.
But isn't Merrill herself atypical or even contradictory in her views?
Not when it comes to her religious views or her view of magic as a "gift of the Creators.
The other members of her clan seem to be rather anti-blood magic, and yet we have Merrill using it and saying it is just a tool and not inherently bad, and it seems to be what is putting her at odds with her clan. Also, the Dalish are said to be wary of spirits, viewing them all as dangerous, which Merrill even says one minute, and the next she says all spirits are different and she gains rivalry when Hawke refuses to deal with demons.
What if Merrill's views are the aberration?
Merrill points out that all spirits can be dangerous, which is also shared by the Dalish, as we know from WoT. Merrill says that there's no such thing as a good spirit when she chastises Anders (because he seems to think there's a binary 'good' and 'evil' to them since he's Andrastian); she also disagrees that spirits are "the Children of the Maker" or the embodiment of different "sins" as Chantry teachings dictate.
Characters in a game do. Not the game.
I think only Virnehn and Minaeve's clan are the true aberrations.
There's also no evidence for their claims. And every word out of Bull's Dalish's mouth is a lie.
Just cause you disagree with Dalish hardly makes them a liar.
Just cause you disagree with Dalish hardly makes them a liar.
Ohhh, Dalish? I think she's just there to be funny.
Just cause you disagree with Dalish hardly makes them a liar.
dude I spelled this out earlier in the thread
There's also no evidence for their claims. And every word out of Bull's Dalish's mouth is a lie.
Do you have any evidence of this that isn't her taking the "pretend to not be a mage" to comical levels?
Ohhh, Dalish? I think she's just there to be funny.
I think Dalish was just there to poke fun at the people complaining how a mage Hawke could not be discovered by templars despite doing magic openly.
Yeah, there is this contradiction. We get 'not all clans are the same,' and at the same time we get, 'Dalish clans have a mage limit,' from 3 sources in DAI, presented as some sort of hard and fast rule.
Its Bioware's pathetic retcon attempt to make the Andrastian Circles of Magi seem like a good thing. I personally chalk the Minaeve issue as bad clan management - Not all clans are created equal. Clan Lavellan for instance, openly trade with Humans.
"But Vivienne and Bull talks about the 3 clan rule so it must be a fact !"
No, it doesn't. I wager Vivienne the Court Enchanter has never met a Dalish in her life, much less an actual Dalish mage or a Dalish clan. She would be too busy planning schemes to gain more power to spend time learning about the Dalish. Iron Bull on the other hand has only met one Dalish and she has a freaking Vallaslin which means she stayed with her clan until she was old enough to get a Vallaslin and then was forced out or left because of some other issue, not 3 mage per clan rule. Otherwise, she would not be flaunting her Dalish roots so much by not covering up her Vallaslin and by not wearing Dalish armor.
Its Bioware's pathetic retcon attempt to make the Andrastian Circles of Magi seem like a good thing. I personally chalk the Minaeve issue as bad clan management - Not all clans are created equal. Clan Lavellan for instance, openly trade with Humans.
"But Vivienne and Bull talks about the 3 clan rule so it must be a fact !"
No, it doesn't. I wager Vivienne the Court Enchanter has never met a Dalish in her life, much less an actual Dalish mage or a Dalish clan. She would be too busy planning schemes to gain more power to spend time learning about the Dalish. Iron Bull on the other hand has only met one Dalish and she has a freaking Vallaslin which means she stayed with her clan until she was old enough to get a Vallaslin and then was forced out or left because of some other issue, not 3 mage per clan rule. Otherwise, she would not be flaunting her Dalish roots so much by not covering up her Vallaslin and by not wearing Dalish armor.
It's not a retcon to make the Circles seem like a good thing, I think, so much as it is a retcon to make the Circles seem like an inevitable thing. Is it better to abandon children in the woods than to, basically, commit general crimes against humanity? Bleh. They also do it with the Vashoth.
But we can't have it both ways. If this is a retcon, then Viviene is right. You can't both say that it's a retcon and that she's an unreliable narrrator.
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