1599 réponses à ce sujet

[The Ascendant]

Wonder if my idea of a game set during the life of Andraste and the First Exalted March is that far fetched. We know so little of what really happened. Maybe it will be akin to Last Flight. Having two protagonists. One set the modern times, reading the journal of the contemporary of Andraste, dealing with the revelations  and the other set during the past. We know how the story of Andraste ends, but how it began, what really happened and why it ended that way are still hotly debated. Seeing all those major historical figures and events would be amazing. Probably unlikely but still amazing. 

[Gervaise]

Actually I think your idea might be an interesting way of doing it and better than simply turning up codices that have apparently gone unnoticed all this time but you just happen to find them.   There seem to be three different versions in circulation of what happened during the Exalted March leading up to her capture, not to mention the variations in her history in her childhood and early years before she revealed the Maker to the world.    It would also be interesting to see how things developed after her death.

 

I must admit I started getting so intensely disillusioned with the Chantry as an organisation when I read in World of Thedas how different the secular version of events seems to be to the religious one.    Then discovering how every tribe had their own traditions and stories concerning Andraste and the numerous cults associated with her that were all eradicated by Drakon made me feel that there was an important story there that needed telling.

 

May be they will get someone to write a book about it but being able to actually take a part in the events would be a wonderfully immersive way of doing this.   Naturally it couldn't be a game of choices, beyond the very superficial ones, and would be rather linear but I wouldn't mind giving it a go.   If they stuck with you simply being human, the timeline could start with you being a periphery figure in Andraste's home village, even one of her friends, watching her growth as the prophet, then taking part in Exalted March, getting separated when she is captured and arriving to help Havard get back to Ferelden.     It could even be introduced as someone having approached you in your old age, to get your account as an eye witness, so it can be written down and not forgotten.    Then the irony would be that it was because your tribe was one of the ones that ended up on the wrong side of Drakon's purges.   Or alternatively, it was secreted away at Haven and the destruction wrought by Corypheus uncovered its location, so it is discovered when people are sorting through the rubble.

[Dean_the_Young]

Just cause you disagree with Dalish hardly makes them a liar.

 

Of course it does. If Dalish isn't lying, then Xil might have to alter her position on the moral propriety of the Dalish. So between Xil and three canonical lore exposition sources, obviously the characters in the games themselves must be wrong, and if they're deliberately and willingly saying things that are wrong then they must be liars.

[Dean_the_Young]

Actually I think your idea might be an interesting way of doing it and better than simply turning up codices that have apparently gone unnoticed all this time but you just happen to find them.   There seem to be three different versions in circulation of what happened during the Exalted March leading up to her capture, not to mention the variations in her history in her childhood and early years before she revealed the Maker to the world.    It would also be interesting to see how things developed after her death.

 

I must admit I started getting so intensely disillusioned with the Chantry as an organisation when I read in World of Thedas how different the secular version of events seems to be to the religious one.    Then discovering how every tribe had their own traditions and stories concerning Andraste and the numerous cults associated with her that were all eradicated by Drakon made me feel that there was an important story there that needed telling.

 

May be they will get someone to write a book about it but being able to actually take a part in the events would be a wonderfully immersive way of doing this.   Naturally it couldn't be a game of choices, beyond the very superficial ones, and would be rather linear but I wouldn't mind giving it a go.   If they stuck with you simply being human, the timeline could start with you being a periphery figure in Andraste's home village, even one of her friends, watching her growth as the prophet, then taking part in Exalted March, getting separated when she is captured and arriving to help Havard get back to Ferelden.     It could even be introduced as someone having approached you in your old age, to get your account as an eye witness, so it can be written down and not forgotten.    Then the irony would be that it was because your tribe was one of the ones that ended up on the wrong side of Drakon's purges.   Or alternatively, it was secreted away at Haven and the destruction wrought by Corypheus uncovered its location, so it is discovered when people are sorting through the rubble.

 

Deus Ex had a good game in which there were a lot of choices to be made, even if they didn't change the sequel at all. I wouldn't call that superficial.

 

What a prequel RPG can do is emphasize dashed expectations- the idea that what we intend isn't what we get- but it can also play to other side as well. That choices cast in one context of being of one sort aren't actually as bad as they're presumed. If a character in a fall of the Dales scenario argues that the Chantry will enslave or genocide the survivors, you can make a moral choice of whether to fight to the last or not- knowing that while the Dales fell, the elves were not made into a slave race or genocided. It's still a meaningful moral delimma, even if it doesn't change the end result.

 

A prequel RPG could also set up seeds for future developments. Imagine a quest in which preserving a copy of the Canticle of Sharatan is tied to a sequel quest centuries later in which we find the cache. Or imagine a time capsule, and that we get to choose the contents to reflect our society and views- and that capsule becomes significant later.

 

'Change the world immediately' shouldn't be the only standard of 'meaningful' choices. Some choices are significant even if there is no greater effect, because they reflect character. Others can have an effect that's subtle, or even long-delayed.

[Qun00]

I'm surprised at how elfy the City Elf codex is.

"The humans tell tales of Andraste, and to them, she was a prophet. To our people, however, she was an inspiration. Her rebellion against Tevinter gave our people a window through which to see the sun, and we reached toward it with all our strength. The rebellion was brief but successful; even after the death of the prophetess, we fought on for independence as the human Imperium began to crumble. In the end, we won freedom and the southern land known as the Dales, and we began the Long Walk to our new homeland.

There, in the Dales, our people revived the lost lore as best we could. We called the first city Halamshiral, "end of the journey," and founded a new nation, isolated as elves were meant to be, this time patrolled by an order of Emerald Knights charged with watching the borders for trouble from humans.

But you already know that something went wrong. A small elven raiding party attacked the nearby human village of Red Crossing, an act of anger that prompted the Chantry to retaliate and, with their superior numbers, conquer the Dales.

We were not enslaved as we had been before, but our worship of the ancient gods was now forbidden. We were allowed to live among the humans only as second-class citizens who worshipped their Maker, forgetting once more the scraps of lore we had maintained through the centuries."

The way Pol describes them, you'd think the city elves care little for elven lore.

"To most elves I know, the only difference between them and humans is how much coin they carry".

[The Ascendant]

Hey, crazy idea, but what if Andraste was the first person that Mythal possessed? It would explain her power, her 'miraculous' fertility even though Maferath said she was infertile, and why the Magisters burned her. It is said she only had daughters, and one of them disappeared with a Tevinter Magister. Maybe Flemeth of Highever was one of her descendants and that was why Mythal sought her out. 

Now you might ask, why preach about the Maker if she was an Evanuris. Simple, belief and faith a powerful forces especially in the Fade. If enough people believed in the Maker in Thedas, then they would 'create' the Maker in the Fade.  This 'Maker' would be a powerful spirit, that Mythal could control and use it to destroy the Evanuris once and for all. Unlikely I know, but still it makes me wonder.

[Gervaise]

I suppose the writers would now argue that city elves vary from alienage to alienage just as Dalish do from clan to clan but then again the Vhenadahl tree is meant to be a reminder of old Arlathan.   Every alienage is meant to have one of these, even if Zevran is rather dismissive of this and claims some have just let it die.   It seems to have been a rather clever move on the part of the city elves to use the tree in this way under the noses of the Chantry.   If challenged, it is just a tree.   In Masked Empire it states about Briala that even though the majority of her life she had been brought up to believe in the Maker, a belief largely shattered by the death of her parents, and Felassan had been unwilling to teach much of the ways of the elven gods (we know why now), nevertheless it would seem she did know about them because she had come to revere Andruil as Goddess of the Hunt.  It is quite possible that other city elves have a similar approach.   Just because you aren't allowed to worship them openly doesn't mean you don't.   The elves kept alive the memory of their gods for millennia as slaves of the Imperium, after a similarly catastrophic defeat at the hands of the humans.   Why should it have been any different after the fall of the Dales?

 

In Masked Empire Briala seemed to have the idea that the Dalish were out there working on behalf of the city elves to restore their homeland and had solidarity with them.   This is confirmed by the Dalish entry in DAO that has them saying they are preserving the traditions and culture for the sake of all, both Dalish and city, when they finally have a homeland again.  It is just the plan for achieving this homeland that is a bit lacking at present but the dream is still there.  

 

Then PW pours cold water on Briala's view of the Dalish by having the Keeper be so dismissive of the fate of the elves in Halamshiral and the cities, to the extent of saying that they are no longer even his people, but poor cousins lost to them for ever, and suggesting that clans that accept them are only doing so to keep their numbers up or out of pity, but implying that to proper Dalish, like him, they are not his People.   Naturally Briala is very upset to discover this.   Felassan and thus the writer does nothing to correct this impression either to Briala or the reader.    So if you are new to the world you would think that this was the view of the majority of Dalish, instead of the fact that Thelhen and clan Virnehn are really the exception and most clans are actually like Sabrae and Zathrian's clan in both accepting city elves and seeing them as "brethren" as the codex on the Dalish makes clear in DAO.      They might look down on elves in the city for staying there and accepting their second class status instead of breaking free but they are only too happy to accept them back into the fold when they do.

 

So, yes, it is surprising how much they have altered the way we are meant to view the Dalish and the city elves and the connection between both the communities and their attitude to their ancient culture.    Which is why I am still in the mind set of DAO and get very angry when they seem to make changes that impact on how we view the Dalish or the city elves as a whole, rather than making it clear it is just one clan or one individual that thinks like that.

 

So Pol says that is his impression of the city elves he has lived among.   Lavellan can say to Solas that in their experience all that elven hunters care about is how comparing how good they are with a bow.     That is their personal opinion.     It is when you get things being said that are clearly meant to apply to the whole culture that I get all worked up, like the 3 mage thing.

[In Exile]

I'm surprised at how elfy the City Elf codex is.

"The humans tell tales of Andraste, and to them, she was a prophet. To our people, however, she was an inspiration. Her rebellion against Tevinter gave our people a window through which to see the sun, and we reached toward it with all our strength. The rebellion was brief but successful; even after the death of the prophetess, we fought on for independence as the human Imperium began to crumble. In the end, we won freedom and the southern land known as the Dales, and we began the Long Walk to our new homeland.

There, in the Dales, our people revived the lost lore as best we could. We called the first city Halamshiral, "end of the journey," and founded a new nation, isolated as elves were meant to be, this time patrolled by an order of Emerald Knights charged with watching the borders for trouble from humans.

But you already know that something went wrong. A small elven raiding party attacked the nearby human village of Red Crossing, an act of anger that prompted the Chantry to retaliate and, with their superior numbers, conquer the Dales.

We were not enslaved as we had been before, but our worship of the ancient gods was now forbidden. We were allowed to live among the humans only as second-class citizens who worshipped their Maker, forgetting once more the scraps of lore we had maintained through the centuries."

The way Pol describes them, you'd think the city elves care little for elven lore.

"To most elves I know, the only difference between them and humans is how much coin they carry".

? The codex and Pol say the same thing. Look at the bold. 

[Xilizhra]

You know, I may have been wrong about Bull's Dalish. It's Bull himself who makes the erroneous claim that all Dalish do that.

[Hellion Rex]

Hey, crazy idea, but what if Andraste was the first person that Mythal possessed? It would explain her power, her 'miraculous' fertility even though Maferath said she was infertile, and why the Magisters burned her. It is said she only had daughters, and one of them disappeared with a Tevinter Magister. Maybe Flemeth of Highever was one of her descendants and that was why Mythal sought her out.
Now you might ask, why preach about the Maker if she was an Evanuris. Simple, belief and faith a powerful forces especially in the Fade. If enough people believed in the Maker in Thedas, then they would 'create' the Maker in the Fade. This 'Maker' would be a powerful spirit, that Mythal could control and use it to destroy the Evanuris once and for all. Unlikely I know, but still it makes me wonder.

I doubt it, and I find that avenue highly undesirable. I think it'd be pretty dumb to have had Mythal possess both Andraste and Flemeth. I'd rather just have Mythal have possessed Flemeth and be done with it. Let Andraste be a part of some other myth.

I'm honestly a little tired of the elves having been involved in almost every little lore reveal lately.

[Gervaise]

I'd like Andraste kept separate from Mythal and the Solas plot as well.    I think Andraste is important.   I would like to know more about the real Andraste.    She may even have had elf blood somewhere in her ancestry.    She was definitely in communication with some sort of spirit, even if it wasn't the Maker, and that spirit could conceivably have been Mythal but that should be as far as it goes.   Please no reveal that Andraste was Mythal or Dumat or whatever other god reborn.    It's bad enough that the Chantry have all but erased the real woman, don't let the writers do it as well.

[The Ascendant]

All right I'll stop looking for Elves in everything.

I am curious about the realism of the Exalted March. Could she have actually defeated the Imperium? According to the lore, the barbarians only got as far north as the Free Marches, and never the mainland Tevinter. How would she have dealt with all the freed slaves? Not to mention the issue of the Elves. She wanted to spread the word of the Maker, would she have tolerated her allies belief in different Gods? 

[Gervaise]

That is the interesting part about Andraste.   We know now that Drakon erased every cult that did not agree with his own.    Ameridan could be evidence that people generally could have a belief in the Maker as well as their own gods or he could simply have been the exception.    We know the Chant maintains that the Maker will not tolerate belief in other gods but are those the actual words of Andraste?     

 

There is an interesting passage in World of Thedas about animist beliefs in Ferelden.  It says "The old ways are disappearing, but the Chantry does not demand their removal or promote hatred against the old deities.   The Maker simply stands above them."   This seem very odd.   According to the Chant, the number one commandment is: "There is but one god and he is our Maker.  They are sinners who have given their love to false gods."  Also when Drakon was spreading his cult in the early days, in addition to removing all alternative Andrastrian cults and those to the Old Gods, he conquered into Ferelden stamping out the worship of "any lingering Alamarri and Ciriane deities".    So the assertion about Ferelden seems at odds with this.    It would seem that the Chantry found it impossible to eradicate the animist worship entirely so in the end just had to live with it and adjusted their dogma accordingly, as they always do.   

 

The shade of Shartan said "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".   This sounds more like a partnership of convenience than a fully fledged disciple as the Chantry maintain when they are willing to acknowledge his existence.   The fact that he was willing to die to save her just shows how he was far more honourable than Maferath was, not that he was devoted to the Maker.   If anything you'd think he'd have been a bit disillusioned in the Maker since he didn't come to Andraste's aid.   So there is no way of telling if he was a devout Andrastrian or not.    As for many of the elves arriving after the Long March.   They had never known Andraste or fought in her crusade.   It is doubtful how much they felt they owed to the Maker and how much to Shartan and his fellow rebels.   Probably more to the latter.    Later Dalish lore has them saying they attributed their deliverance to their own gods.   Who is to say what wasn't the case?   Certainly the idea that that everyone in the south immediately converted to worship of the Maker or even to the same version of the Chant is refuted by the lore books.      My own belief is that a lot of people simply added the Maker to their own pantheon of gods and continued to worship as before.   The early Dalish probably did the same.    When Drakon's missionaries insisted that they were sinners for worshipping their own gods and they saw what he was doing to the neighbouring human tribes and cults, that was probably when they started saying that Orlais was no better than Tevinter.   After all the Imperium had not permitted them to worship their own gods and had all but destroyed their culture. 

 

As for her Exalted March, she never got further north than Nevarra according to the secular histories.   That is where she was captured and she only ever got near Minrathous in chains.   Again, it is hard to tell whether the story in the Chant was deliberate deception on the part of Drakon or just tribes inventing a more fanciful and heroic end to her story.    According to the histories, there were slave rebellions all across southern Tevinter at the time of her Exalted March, which if nothing else distracted them from concentrating on the barbarians.   Those who didn't escape and join the barbarians at the time, probably left ten years later, after Hessarian adopted Andrastrianism as his faith, purged many of the old ruling houses and allowed the elven slaves at least to leave for the Dales if they wished.    Many took up the Long March but as the Dalish recount there were those who turned back and returned to slavery because they couldn't face the hardships of the journey.   These later slaves do seem to have been unfortunate in that there was no one to protect them or help them on their way as there had been for those who joined the Exalted March.  

[In Exile]

I doubt it, and I find that avenue highly undesirable. I think it'd be pretty dumb to have had Mythal possess both Andraste and Flemeth. I'd rather just have Mythal have possessed Flemeth and be done with it. Let Andraste be a part of some other myth.

I'm honestly a little tired of the elves having been involved in almost every little lore reveal lately.

I think it's far more likely that the myths surrounding Mythal might have bled into myths about Andraste. I actually think there's a fair bit to suggest that the meeting between Andraste and Shartan is really a story about Mythal and Solas. Not to say that there wasn't a historical Shartan. But much like how modern Christian myths actually incorporated stories from older myths, it would not be inconceivable for Andrastians to do the same.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I think it's far more likely that the myths surrounding Mythal might have bled into myths about Andraste. I actually think there's a fair bit to suggest that the meeting between Andraste and Shartan is really a story about Mythal and Solas. Not to say that there wasn't a historical Shartan. But much like how modern Christian myths actually incorporated stories from older myths, it would not be inconceivable for Andrastians to do the same.

But doesn't Trespasser say Solas only awoke recently?

[Qun00]

But much like how modern Christian myths actually incorporated stories from older myths, it would not be inconceivable for Andrastians to do the same.

Kinda funny how everyone gets tip-toey when talking about muslim culture, but when the target is christianity anything is fair game.

It is one thing to be an atheist and quite another to cross the line like this.

[Hellion Rex]

But doesn't Trespasser say Solas only awoke recently?

Indeed. Which is why I am extremely hesitant to label anything related Shartan as evidence related to Solas.


On the grand scale, I think Andraste was an extraordinarily powerful mage who managed to get entangled with a very powerful spirit, perhaps of Faith or even the fabled Hope, but it would explain the caliber of miracles that she managed to pull off. Does that destroy what she stood for? I'd argue not, but it does put a different spin on the tale.

[In Exile]

Kinda funny how everyone gets tip-toey when talking about muslim culture, but when the target is christianity anything is fair game.

It is one thing to be an atheist and quite another to cross the line like this.

 

It's not crossing the line to state facts, and I'm not going to just debate religion. I will say this: saying that there are historical influences on the form of a religious myth is no different than saying the modern bible was drafted at the Council of Nicea.

 

I guess you think I'm using "myth" pejoratively. I'm not. A myth is defined to include: "a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events."

 

But doesn't Trespasser say Solas only awoke recently?

 

Yes, but that's not what I mean. There are clearly stories about Solas that the elvhen had. And they aren't just going to forget those stories - much like they didn't forget the stories of the Evanuris. But those stories get twisted. They can easily get twisted.

 

That people have historical stories of Solas, and people have stories of Shartan, and people bungle the two into one, can all happen without Solas ever being awake.

[Gervaise]

Actually In Exile is quite correct about the use of the word myth.   Our bishop did it once in a sermon and it seem odd that he might be suggesting that but he went on to explain what he meant.    There are also some traditional Christian stories that are likely genuine myths, like the one about Joseph of Arimathea bringing the faith to England and the Glastonbury thorn bush that was said to have grown from his planted staff, or even the one where he brought Jesus here as a young child.   Hence the line in Jerusalem "And did those feet in ancient time, walk upon England's mountains green?"   It is just a nice story, with no real basis in fact.  

 

An example of a Christian myth that incorporate an older Celtic one, is the story of the holy grail.    The one is meant to be the cup of Jesus, the chalice of eternal life, which got mixed in with the legend of the Cauldron of the Dagda, which could restore his soldiers to life after being killed in battle.   Then you have baptism by immersion, so you die in going down into water and are reborn as a Christian as you rise up again, which would have resonated with those adherents of the old Celtic faith because of their story about the Cauldron.   Taliesin, the great Welsh bard, is actually stated as saying "Christ the Word was from the beginning our teacher and we never lost his teaching.  Christianity in Asia was a new thing but there was never a time when the druids of Britain held not his doctrines."     Now that may have been overstating it a little but if you compare some of the beliefs that are common to both, it is easy to see how Christianity appealed in Britain and Ireland and also how elements of the older faith got incorporated into the Christian one in these islands.      The sites of holy wells are one such example, where they were simply rededicated to God and the people continued to venerate them as before.  

 

Knowing the origins of your faith and being willing to talk about them is not the same as rubbishing them.    Still I know the moderators get a bit twitchy when we veer into real life religion, so I'll leave it there.

[IHaveReturned1999]

The Ancient Elves were more like Ancient Sumerians, Egyptians, and Mesopotamians because the have one of the most powerful empires and civilizations in Ancient times and the most advanced.

[The Ascendant]

The Ancient Elves were more like Ancient Sumerians, Egyptians, and Mesopotamians because the have one of the most powerful empires and civilizations in Ancient times and the most advanced.

All of them ruled by God Kings. Good eye!

[Gervaise]

I feel they are more like the Tuatha de Dannan, the ancient people of Ireland.   Constantly involved in major magical battles.   War witches who can shapeshift into ravens, one of whom is actually called Morrigan.   Dreams and portents before battle.    A hero whose hand  is cut off in battle, loses leadership as a result because you cannot lead if not perfect and then has a replacement silver arm magically crafted for him that obeys his will as if it were his own flesh and blood.  His replacement, originally a hero, becoming corrupt and forcing the people into servitude.   Balor of the Evil Eye who can kill people with a look.   The hero calling on the Riders of the Shi, the fairy folk (spirits), to aid him in battle and the hero himself transforming into a monstrous creature that sounds like a cross between a dragon and a werewolf.  

 

When their civilisation is literally built from magic it is hard to equate it with real world ancient civilisations, although I suppose those do have their own myths and legends that have larger than life heroes within them.

[Qun00]

I'm a little stuck in Nature of the Beast because I'm not sure what to tell Lanaya when she asks "Do the humans ever regret what they did to us?"

I could choose "I think some of them do. Not all humans are the same". But... based on what? The only person that actually addresses the subject is Cailan, when he says "Your people aren't exactly fond of mine, for good reason".

It is a valid example, but just one. At the same time, this is the reason why it doesn't seem accurate to respond with the other option: "I can't tell. I haven't seen anything".

The other two alternatives also basically say the humans don't care about it.

[IHaveReturned1999]

I'm a little stuck in Nature of the Beast because I'm not sure what to tell Lanaya when she asks "Do the humans ever regret what they did to us?"
I could choose "I think some of them do. Not all humans are the same". But... based on what? The only person that actually addresses the subject is Cailan, when he says "Your people aren't exactly fond of mine, for good reason".
It is a valid example, but just one. At the same time, this is the reason why it doesn't seem accurate to respond with the other option: "I can't tell. I haven't seen anything".
The other two alternatives also basically say the humans don't care about it.

If the humans regret what they have done, they would pay recompense for the crimes against elves and make amends. So no humans regretted nothing because they still keep a system of racial discrimination and tyranny against elves as an entire group of people.

[The Ascendant]

Been watching Berserk recently and the Forbidden Ones kind of remind me of the God Hand. Former mortals who became Demons and exist in a separate plane of existence most of the time, and make Faustian bargains every now and then. Wonder if they will ever have a fifth member. Wonder where the Formless One is. Hopefully he/she/it shows up in Tevinter.