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[Gervaise]

If you think about it, if you combine the 4 Forbidden Ones, with the 4 Forgotten Ones, that gives you 8 to correspond with the 8 Creators, making a pantheon of 16 Evanuris with Fen'Harel standing in between as in the Dalish tales.      The only problem with that is that Imshael is one of them and he didn't seem that impressive.   May be his power is limited outside the Fade.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Forbidden Ones are clearly not equals of the Evanuris, I think at best they might have been generals or nobles or something.

[The Ascendant]

They are not as powerful as the Evanuris obviously but they are incredibly ancient, powerful and very active in modern Thedas. And unlike most demons, they have personalities and identities. I would compare them to a classical devil than a god, powerful but not too powerful. What really intrigued me is the fact that they made themselves into Demons. I wonder if that ritual still exists somewhere...

[In Exile]

I'm a little stuck in Nature of the Beast because I'm not sure what to tell Lanaya when she asks "Do the humans ever regret what they did to us?"

I could choose "I think some of them do. Not all humans are the same". But... based on what? The only person that actually addresses the subject is Cailan, when he says "Your people aren't exactly fond of mine, for good reason".

It is a valid example, but just one. At the same time, this is the reason why it doesn't seem accurate to respond with the other option: "I can't tell. I haven't seen anything".

The other two alternatives also basically say the humans don't care about it.

Well, presumably Leliana isn't cheerleading the devastation of the Dales. But it's a bit of a confusing question because different humans tortured the elves in different ways. As in how Vaughan abuses the CEs today is totally different from what the Chantry and Orlais did to the Dales and what Tevinter did to the remants of Elvhenan.

Also keep in mind the dialogue options are pretty similar across origins. Though I tend to play my elves in all games as "humans could not give less of a ****".

[In Exile]

They are not as powerful as the Evanuris obviously but they are incredibly ancient, powerful and very active in modern Thedas. And unlike most demons, they have personalities and identities. I would compare them to a classical devil than a god, powerful but not too powerful. What really intrigued me is the fact that they made themselves into Demons. I wonder if that ritual still exists somewhere...

We've seen that happen with the baroness. And we've seen spirits "become" like the beings they imitate - like Cole or Ameridan's lover. This seems to be more a natural phenomenon than a ritual.

[TEWR]

If you think about it, if you combine the 4 Forbidden Ones, with the 4 Forgotten Ones, that gives you 8 to correspond with the 8 Creators, making a pantheon of 16 Evanuris with Fen'Harel standing in between as in the Dalish tales.      The only problem with that is that Imshael is one of them and he didn't seem that impressive.   May be his power is limited outside the Fade.

There were way more then 4 forgotten ones as I recall. But the elves only know a few names

[Qun00]

Does anyone know what the Old Gods are based on?

I mean, the Forsworn in Skyrim worship the "Old Gods" too.

[In Exile]

There were way more then 4 forgotten ones as I recall. But the elves only know a few names

 

We have the name of three: Geldauran, Anaris and Daern'thal. The wiki includes Solas among them, and we know that's not exactly right. They seem to be setting themselves up as the antithesis of the Evanuris, based on this codex:

 

There are no gods. There is only the subject and the object, the actor and the acted upon. Those with will to earn dominance over others gain title not by nature but by deed. I am Geldauran, and I refuse those who would exert will upon me. Let Andruil's bow crack, let June's fire grow cold. Let them build temples and lure the faithful with promises. Their pride will consume them, and I, forgotten, will claim power of my own, apart from them until I strike in mastery.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There were way more then 4 forgotten ones as I recall. But the elves only know a few names

 

I don't remember this being based on any lore that I know of.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Does anyone know what the Old Gods are based on?

I mean, the Forsworn in Skyrim worship the "Old Gods" too.

Pretty sure there's no correlation there. It just means gods that are old, in both contexts. As opposed to any newer gods, with their snappy haircuts and hip cat lingo.

[Shechinah]

I'm still holding to my theory that the Forgotten Ones are the Old Gods.

[The Ascendant]

We've seen that happen with the baroness. And we've seen spirits "become" like the beings they imitate - like Cole or Ameridan's lover. This seems to be more a natural phenomenon than a ritual.

Oh yeah I remember the Baroness. Wonder how it's possible. She used a big blood magic ritual to trap the town in the Fade, and then used blood magic to escape again. Not to mention the spirit of Divine Justinia.

[Gervaise]

The problem with the Forgotten Ones being the Old Gods is from the evidence so far there is nothing positive you can say about the Forgotten Ones.   The Dalish remember them as the gods of terror, malice, spite and pestilence and their current worshipers seem to definitely believe in blood sacrifice, since they treat their enemies in battle as if they are already a sacrifice.   I can see the Forgotten Ones luring the Magisters to the Golden City in order to release the Blight on the world but that is about all.

 

If you didn't know the Old Gods were said to be associated with teaching the Tevinter blood magic, you wouldn't really guess there was anything that wrong with them at all, based on their original designations:  Silence; Freedom (later chaos); Fire; Unity (later slavery); Beauty; Mystery; Night.  There is nothing inherently bad about any of these attributes, except the ones in brackets and it seems odd that they should have those later alternatives that have actually very similar but negative associations with the former. 

 

This is why I feel they seem more like some alter ego of the Creators: Elgar'nan (Silence); Andruil (Freedom, later chaos after she went mad); Sylaise (Fire); Ghilan'nain (Unity, since she got rid of her creatures because they were disturbing the peace and she was originally one of the slaves); June (Beauty); Dirthamen (Mystery); Falon'Din (Night).    If they encouraged the Magisters to go to the Golden City it was because they thought it would free them from their prisons.    As for why the elves couldn't hear them, may be the Veil blocked mental contact with the elves in some way and then the reason they stopped communicating with the humans worshippers is that the connection had only been tenuous at best (hushed whispers) and they lost even that with the progress of time.   May be it was the release of Void magic with the Blight that did it.  

[TEWR]

I don't remember this being based on any lore that I know of.

I'm at work but it was in one of the dalish codexes. I think

[Gervaise]

The three names we know of for the Forgotten Ones are confirmed in the Core Rulebook, which you could argue is the most recent information as it was published on-line in 2015.   It is definitely seen as the ultimate sin for a Dalish to turn to these gods.   It says they believe: "Such lost souls have torn out their hearts and forsaken all that it means to be Dalish in return for the keys to a twisted and terrible strength".    So it would seem that the Dalish don't deny the Forgotten Ones are powerful, though may be not quite as powerful as the Evanuris/Creators.   Gelduran said he was going to strike once their pride consumes them and since Solas' name means pride I do wonder if this was some reference to him and that the Forgotten Ones were even involved in some way with the trap he created.   Without the Evanuris around, they probably were the most powerful beings left around.   Even if he did lock them away as well, as the Dalish believe, they are meant to be trapped in the Void, which was their home anyway, so likely still at full power.

 

Another interesting thing from the rulebook is a new idea concerning Andruil that she instead of being the child of Elgar'nan and Mythal, she was a child of the earth.   So could she have been a nature spirit, like the Lady of the Forest?      Also June is said to have crafted himself.    Neat trick if you can pull it off but it does sound very much like a spirit that became material, like Cole.    Ghilan'nain is described as originally a mortal elven women "beloved of Andruil".    Do you suppose that means they were actually lovers?   Lastly it speaks of Fen'Harel's "dark wisdom".   That definitely sounds like something that was remembered correctly.  

 

Flip me, I've just seen something else.   Fen'Harel is described as the "lord of tricksters and bringer of nightmares."    Anyone remember what he and the nightmare demon said to one another?    I remember him saying that fear was the oldest emotion, which was a jolly sort of thought at the time and I did wonder how he could know that.

[Gervaise]

One more curiosity, this time from World of Thedas.  Do you suppose it was just coincidence that they placed an entry on the Lady of the Skies, an Avaar goddess, in the middle of the entries on the elven pantheon?  I remember that Tyrdda Brightaxe's leaf eared lover was described as the "laughing lady of the skies", and leaf eared definitely suggested an elf in my mind.   I note it says that "we sacrificed wolves upon her altars.   In return she sends prize game in the hunt and victory in war".   In MoA I remember a codex that spoke of her flying down to rescue her followers and carrying them to safety.   Didn't mention the type of creature so it could be anything from a dragon, to a griffon to a simple bird.   Anyone got any thoughts on this?

[Gervaise]

More elven trivia from the Core Rulebook.

"The words of Andraste, however, set fire to the heart of an elf named Shartan.   He led a host of elves out of bondage with the promise that they could reclaim a land of their own and once again worship the gods of their ancestors."   It then goes on to say that as a reward for their support they were given the Dales.      I was just wondering, is this the definitive proof that Andraste promised them they could both have a homeland and worship their own gods, even if it was with the proviso that they also acknowledged the Maker?   Or was it just Shartan's promise to his followers?   Also the word reclaim suggests that the land had once been there's in time gone by.  Again, were these Shartan's sentiments or Andraste's?

 

It still seems odd to me that the Alamarri were still happily worshipping their animist gods some 170 years after Andraste and would have continued to do so if Drakon hadn't turned up.   Then the people reverted to doing so again after he left for the 2nd Blight, apparently combining it quite happily with worship of the Maker.   It seems to me it was Drakon who had the problem with people worshipping other gods as well as the Maker, not Andraste or the Maker himself, as the Chant would suggest.    This also seems hinted at by Ameridan, a worshipper of both the Maker and elven gods, because as he said "Drakon wants to keep it simple".

 

Of course if his Chantry was going to have overall control of religion in his Empire, he had to get rid of other forms of worship as the Chantry would not be able to control these. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That sentence sounds like they were "reclaiming" the general notion of having a land of their own. WoT already says that Andraste and Maferath promised them the Dales when they joined forces and that Maferath still honored the deal even after his betrayal killed Shartan. It also says Shartan was a convert so my feeling was that some of the elves were worshipers of the Creators and others had a religion that was influence by both the Creators and the Maker, like Ameridan.

 

Also, yes I do think it's a coincidence about the Lady of the Skies entry. There's also another entry on the Chantry ranks in the section on the elven gods, so I don't think we're supposed to read anything into that. "Leaf eared lover" never struck me as a reference to elven ears, but more like a spirit like the Lady of the Forest.

[The Ascendant]

The Nightmare Demon and Solas' conversation translated.
ND: Tell me trickster/traitor. All you have accomplished has been for naught. Your pride will be your undoing.
S: Nothing is inevitable.

[Qun00]

I don't like the fact that elven phrases are spoken with the English language's pronunciation in Dragon Age.

Do you ever see Galadriel or Legolas speaking Elvish with a rolled R in the LoTR movies? Of course not.

This moment right here is great because it is one of the rare times when the VA at least tries to say it differently.

[Gervaise]

To be fair this is not LoTR so for all we know, Solas' pronunciation is the correct one.   In fact it must be because he and Abelas are the only ancient elves we see speak it.   If Lavellan is pronouncing it differently it is because the Dalish really don't know how it should be.    Leliana speaks of this in WoT2: "I have heard the elves of the alienage speak their few remembered words, and I have heard the Dalish Keepers recite passages from texts passed down for generations.  Solas spoke like neither of them.   He spoke the language perfectly, with an accent I have never been able to place."  She assumes he learned it in the Fade but of course we know now that is not the case.

 

I would imagine it was a bit of a challenge for the writers and the voice actors to come up with something that would distinguish between those who are only saying it as they think it should sound and those who do so naturally.

 

I loved what they did with the Lord of the Rings movies with regard to elvish and they also had the advantage of having recordings done by JRRT while he was alive to confirm how he wished it to be said but I don't feel we should expect the same of the elves in Thedas.  

[vertigomez]

Is anyone else bothered that there's no epilogue option in DAO where Tabris swears to try to track down all the people Loghain trafficked into slavery? >______> Like, impossible feat or not that would be priority #1 once the Archdemon's dead. You could at least try.

[The Ascendant]

Oh yeah, all those Alienage Elves who got shipped off to the Imperium. Wouldn't that be a nice little Easter Egg to see them again. Although realistically they are probably long gone, vanished into the vast slave administration that is the Imperium. If they do keep records on all their purchases and sales, then we might be able to track them down. But after a decade and a half, would they really want to go home? At this rate they could be spies for the Qunari, or Fen'Harel or who knows.

[vertigomez]

Oh yeah, all those Alienage Elves who got shipped off to the Imperium. Wouldn't that be a nice little Easter Egg to see them again. Although realistically they are probably long gone, vanished into the vast slave administration that is the Imperium. If they do keep records and all their purchases and sales, then we might be able to track them down. But after a decade and a half, would they really want to go home? At this rate they could be spies for the Qunari, or Fen'Harel or who knows.

Well, yeah, now that time has passed it would be signficiantly more difficult if not impossible (if only because many of them are probably dead...). But at the end of DAO it seems like they'd either still be on ships headed to Tevinter or just starting their new, um... "life." I just don't get why it wasn't even brought up as an option to try track them down at the end of DAO?

That really would be one sad easter egg, though. Having Cyrion be your PC's caretaker or something in DA4.

Damn. Now I gave myself feelings.

[Gervaise]

Then again, you have probably just come up with an elven origin story for the next game. The writers do love their little links with previous games.   So the elven PC was a child sold into slavery by Loghain.   That could be the case whatever race the Warden was because the alienage story happens regardless.   Nice irony too if you end up saving the world, or even Tevinter, that Loghain's betrayal of the Night Elves in particular and the alienage elves generally, results in a good outcome.   Then at the end they manage to track down all the other elves who were sold with them (if still alive) and lead them to a better life.   (I can but hope)