1599 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

What's wrong with the elves having their own homeland? Free to live and worship as they please. No repression, oppression, or purges. If there are elves that wish to remain in the Alienage, so be it. They will be subject to whatever laws and regulations the humans dole out. Purges included. The dwarves have Orzammar but the elves aren't allowed to have their own nation. There is the Tevinter Imperium. They are allowed to govern themselves. But the elves cannot. That's the kind of thinking that smacks of racism, you think?

This addresses absolutely none of what I said in my post you are replying to.

 

Damn it just stop this. IHaveReturned is not a serious arguer.

I'm only doing it because it has actually opened an interesting door. If there was a treaty to make an elven nation, what would each group have to agree to to make each other happy enough to agree to it. 

 

Well and

[The Ascendant]

The Dales have been a province of Orlais far longer than a kingdom of Elves.

[IHaveReturned1999]

Damn it just stop this. IHaveReturned is not a serious arguer.

It's all about the love, baby!

[IHaveReturned1999]

This addresses absolutely none of what I said in my post you are replying to.

Yep, I think I did.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yep, I think I did.

You think wrong. 

[IHaveReturned1999]

Let's look at your ideas for the treaty again and give examples that would more likely have the other nations agree to the idea. 

This one sadly will never happen. Both because Tevinter would see no reason to do so, but also because they aren't in a position to do so with their war with the Qun going on. 
 

This condition would stop the Chantry and every other nation from agreeing. Instead, the condition could be perhaps similar to the Citadel in Mass Effect where there are zones in the nation where the Chantry is allowed to preach and the elves who want to worship there can. In exchange, the Chantry can't harass elves who do not wish to convert. Likewise, those elves who follow the Elven Pantheon can't harass the humans or elves who follow the Chantry.
 

This wouldn't fly. Instead it would have to be something like the humans who live in the Dales are still allowed to own their land and live their, and the unclaimed land(there is plenty) goes to the elves. In exchange, just like the elves that would live in this nation, the humans who live there would have to pay taxes to the government. As for trading posts, those could also exist in the before-mentioned zones where the Chantry is allowed. Though why merchants aren't allowed full access I don't get. 
 

For this, instead of humans not being allowed in at all humans are allowed in but like any nation while they are there they have to follow the nation's laws.

I get what you're saying. But I gotta stick toy guns. The elven nation would be new. It needs space to establish itself. Like a honeymoon. And after about fifty or so years then revamp the treaty.

[Dean_the_Young]

Damn it just stop this. IHaveReturned is not a serious arguer.

 

He is, however, actually following through to the logical endpoint of positions and claims that many pro-elven people have made for years. Quite amusingly as well.

 

It's actually a welcome refresher to actually address the implications of what 'elven homeland' and the practical effects of it mean in practice. Most pro-elf fans shy away from the messy details of a frequent 'ideal' proposal. There's nothing IHaveReturned has written that has not already been long since proposed by, say, Lobsel.

[MisterJB]

Why not?

Because you're making demands without a position of power or offering something in return.

[IHaveReturned1999]

Because you're making demands without a position of power or offering something in return.

Inquisitor?

[Qun00]

What do you guys consider to be the best way for the Dalish to adapt their beliefs after learning the truth about the Evanuris?

[Vit246]

He is, however, actually following through to the logical endpoint of positions and claims that many pro-elven people have made for years. Quite amusingly as well.

 

It's actually a welcome refresher to actually address the implications of what 'elven homeland' and the practical effects of it mean in practice. Most pro-elf fans shy away from the messy details of a frequent 'ideal' proposal. There's nothing IHaveReturned has written that has not already been long since proposed by, say, Lobsel.

 

Oh Dean. Admit it. You love him cuz he makes it too damn easy for you and makes us look bad and undermines us and you get to feel vindicated.

[IHaveReturned1999]

What do you guys consider to be the best way for the Dalish to adapt their beliefs after learning the truth about the Evanuris?

They would taught to never repeat history and learn the mistakes and errors that lead the Ancient Elves to their downfall. And develop a new way of thinking and start a utopia.

[Steelcan]

What do you guys consider to be the best way for the Dalish to adapt their beliefs after learning the truth about the Evanuris?

how can they adapt them?  They can worship the Evanuris and all that entails or they cannot.  So far there's not really any reason to suspect that there is room for any alternative interpretations of the Evanuris, save Mythal.

[Steelcan]

Inquisitor?

whose authority is either tied up inextricably with the Chantry or unofficially wielded from the shadows, and enormously diminished in either way

[IHaveReturned1999]

whose authority is either tied up inextricably with the Chantry or unofficially wielded from the shadows, and enormously diminished in either way

Eh it's your opinion.

[Steelcan]

Eh it's your opinion.

that's not an opinion, that's the state of affairs post-Tresspasser

[Vit246]

deelte. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

What do you guys consider to be the best way for the Dalish to adapt their beliefs after learning the truth about the Evanuris?

 

I have a feeling worship of the Evanuris is going to entirely cease soon, because I expect them to be openly hostile to every living thing in Thedas when they show up.

[Dean_the_Young]

Oh Dean. Admit it. You love him cuz he makes it too damn easy for you and makes us look bad and undermines us and you get to feel vindicated.

 

Oh, heavens no. I do my best not to judge people by association. It's both incredibly illogical to disregard an argument just because of who makes it, and incredibly unfair to tar people because of who happens to agree with them. Good ideas stand on their own merit regardless of who makes them, and bad ideas fail despite it. Please believe me when I think absolutely no less of you because of our dear friend. I don't think (s)he makes you look bad at all.

 

 

(S)he makes you position look bad, but then I've generally been arguing that neo-Dales 2.0 would be bad for years. (S)he just makes it obvious why.

 

There's nothing particularly new about her/him. Asking who was paying for a new elven nation, who would rule it, what would happen to the people already living there, and the freedoms of the elves who disagreed with a anti-human/anti-Chantry discriminatory state have been unanswered questions for years, every time someone raises their latest 'let's make a new elven homeland' without actually getting into the specifics of how.

 

At least (s)he doesn't dance around some of the implicit requirements of an elven state free from the 'malign' influence of the Chantry- racial subjugation, ethnic cleansing, ideological totalitarianism, and a good deal of wishing.

[Wulfram]

What do you guys consider to be the best way for the Dalish to adapt their beliefs after learning the truth about the Evanuris?

Realistically just saying "This is all lies, the Evanuris are great and these are just a bunch of imposter demons" is probably the easiest.

Otherwise, they're basically going to need a prophet to create a new religion. Or I suppose convert to an existing on, but their ideology seems to make that very difficult.

[In Exile]

Oh Dean. Admit it. You love him cuz he makes it too damn easy for you and makes us look bad and undermines us and you get to feel vindicated.

 

How do you think the elves are going to get land, apart from it being a gift (which is what the Dales were!) or acquiring it by right of conquest? What do you honestly think an elven racial utopia looks like? How do you think a country can maintain a "pure" culture and racial dominance expect by closed borders and the host of distasteful policies that implies? 

 

At least the proposal "all of Thedas just cedes some land and gives us a bunch of money" has the advance of not advocating for war crimes and (too many) crimes against humanity. 

 

They would taught to never repeat history and learn the mistakes and errors that lead the Ancient Elves to their downfall. And develop a new way of thinking and start a utopia.

 

I think any plan that goes "forced relocation of other races => ? => utopia" has a slight flaw. 

[Dean_the_Young]

How do you think the elves are going to get land, apart from it being a gift (which is what the Dales were!) or acquiring it by right of conquest? What do you honestly think an elven racial utopia looks like? How do you think a country can maintain a "pure" culture and racial dominance expect by closed borders and the host of distasteful policies that implies? 

 

At least the proposal "all of Thedas just cedes some land and gives us a bunch of money" has the advance of not advocating for war crimes and (too many) crimes against humanity. 

 

Well, at least we can all agree that an elven state would allow freedom of religion for the elves to practice whatever religion they want, so long as they don't want anything involving the Chantry or humans.

 

 

 

I think any plan that goes "forced relocation of other races => ? => utopia" has a slight flaw.

 

 

I giggled at the 'they'll be taught to never repeat history' part myself.

 

Almost wanted to give it a like, just for the giggles.

[Xilizhra]

Already, the Dales can have an elven ruler again by the end of DAI. This is an amazing first step that should be built upon, but we don't have to do anything drastic like ethnic cleansing.

[Reznore57]

Already, the Dales can have an elven ruler again by the end of DAI. This is an amazing first step that should be built upon, but we don't have to do anything drastic like ethnic cleansing.

 

Briala gets the Dales?

I had her and Celene and I vaguely remember her getting some title but that's it.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

The only way I see an elven homeland actually working out is by paralleling the state of Israel in real life. Religious freedom is valued, non-Dalish citizens get a say in government, and those who live on the land currently can stay there and participate fully as long as they're willing to follow the new nation's laws.

 

Actually acquiring the land in the first place is the biggest hurdle. Take it by force or technicality and you just engender bad will. The best outcome would require a groundswell of good will in Orlais towards elven nationalists/the Dalish, resulting in the gifting of the land/opening of negotiations for a homeland. Maybe the goodwill could come from the PR boost they might get if they fight valiantly to defeat the rezzed Evanuris or a Qunari invasion? Favorable circumstances are not likely to happen, but situations will arise in the future that might allow for it.

 

And nothing says the Dales have to be the homeland, does it? Could be the goodwill of any nation. There are swathes of land in several places where they might be able to settle if things worked out right with those who owned the land.