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[Xilizhra]

Briala gets the Dales?

I had her and Celene and I vaguely remember her getting some title but that's it.

She becomes Marquise, yes.

 

 

The only way I see an elven homeland actually working is by paralleling the state of Israel in real life.

Getting the nukes might be tricky, but perhaps they can have strong enough mages for it.

 

 

Actually acquiring the land in the first place is the biggest hurdle. Take it by force or technicality and you just engender bad will. The best outcome would require a groundswell of good will towards elven nationalists/the Dalish in Orlais, resulting in the gifting of the land/opening of negotiations for a homeland. Maybe the goodwill could come from the PR boost they might get if they fight valiantly to defeat the rezzed Evanuris or a Qunari invasion? Favorable circumstances are not likely to happen, but situations will arise in the future that might allow for it.

 

And nothing says the Dales have to be the homeland, does it? Could be the goodwill of any nation. There are swathes of land in several places where they might be able to settle if things worked out right with those who owned the land. 

I still say that Briala controlling the Dales is the most favorable circumstance we're likely to get.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Exactly how much does Briala control in the Dales, though? Yes, she's marquis. But she can't split from the crown. She only has power b/c of that crown, b/c she is made a noble of Orlais. Split from Orlais and she has no backing.

 

If she decided to leave, she'd have to make sure, when she split away, that she had the army prepared to back it up.  Celene couldn't just let her split off without reprisal. Maybe, maybe, years and years from now when her reign has solidified and the civil war with Gespard is a forgotten memory, she could get away gifting those living in the Dales independence. perhaps on her death bed as a final decree. But even then, its unlikely. Briala just unilaterally declaring Dales independence would result in a fight, which is unlikely to result in peaceful relations later on, even if the Dales somehow wins, which is unlikely in itself.

 

And then there's the fact that there are enough people who live in the Dales who wouldn't necessarily want to break away. Maybe if Briala won over and banded together with the remaining Freemen of the Dales and/or Fairbanks' people? I don't think it could be just nationalist elves wanting to break away and be done with it. They'd have to deal with/ally/compromise with all the non-nationalist elves and non-elves present on the land at the moment somehow.

 

 

Getting the nukes might be tricky, but perhaps they can have strong enough mages for it.

Well each clan could have at least three mages, so odds of getting a powerful enough mage are good, I think. 

[Xilizhra]

Exactly how much does Briala control in the Dales, though? Yes, she's marquis. But she can't split from the crown. She only has power b/c of that crown, b/c she is made a noble of Orlais. Split from Orlais and she has no backing.

 

If she decided to leave, she'd have to make sure, when she split away, that she had the army prepared to back it up.  Celene couldn't just let her split off without reprisal. Maybe, maybe, years and years from now when her reign has solidified and the civil war with Gespard is a forgotten memory, she could get away gifting those living in the Dales independence. perhaps on her death bed as a final decree. But even then, its unlikely. Briala just unilaterally declaring Dales independence would result in a fight, which is unlikely to result in peaceful relations later on, even if the Dales somehow wins, which is unlikely in itself.

 

And then there's the fact that there are enough people who live in the Dales who wouldn't necessarily want to break away. Maybe if Briala won over and banded together with the remaining Freemen of the Dales and/or Fairbanks' people? I don't think it could be just nationalist elves wanting to break away and be done with it. They'd have to deal with/ally/compromise with all the non-nationalist elves and non-elves present on the land at the moment somehow.

If my Crusader Kings experience carries over, serving as an imperial vassal is usually safer than leading an independent nation, unless you attempt treachery. Splitting off would be a mistake; it's better for the time being, I believe, to keep the Dales as an elven region under the protection of a larger empire, unless Orlais starts oppressing the Dales outright. Then we'd have problems, but maybe they could ally with Ferelden (or, if they're lucky, disgruntled nobles within Orlais).

[IHaveReturned1999]

Well since I've arranged Celene's untimely death & have Briala be the power behind the throne. And I'll put either Cassandra or Leliana on the Sunburst Throne after Corypheus has been defeated, they'll arrange negotiations for the elves have their homeland of their own. First I'll give Tevinter an opportunity to release the elven people from slavery, and if they refuse the elves would declare war with the support of the Inquisition, and temporary alliance with the Qun for a full scale invasion. Then they should pay reparations for thousands years of enslaving, and murdering their ancestors to the elves.

[MisterJB]

Verily, you possess the wisdom of Solomon, the tactical genius of Charlemagne...

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

If my Crusader Kings experience carries over, serving as an imperial vassal is usually safer than leading an independent nation, unless you attempt treachery. Splitting off would be a mistake; it's better for the time being, I believe, to keep the Dales as an elven region under the protection of a larger empire, unless Orlais starts oppressing the Dales outright. Then we'd have problems, but maybe they could ally with Ferelden (or, if they're lucky, disgruntled nobles within Orlais).

Well, yes, I suppose that can work, too. I thought we were specifically discussing an independent homeland.

 

But staying as just a predominantly elven province of Orlais, under an elven marquis (or just any marquis after her who'd actually be sympathetic to elves in the province and apply the law equally to all citizens) would be fine for the elves, too. At least, fine for the Orlesians who live there, anyway. Might be better than a separate nation eventually cus social practices in the Dales might bleed into and influence the overall social situation in the rest of Orlais with time.

[IHaveReturned1999]

If my Crusader Kings experience carries over, serving as an imperial vassal is usually safer than leading an independent nation, unless you attempt treachery. Splitting off would be a mistake; it's better for the time being, I believe, to keep the Dales as an elven region under the protection of a larger empire, unless Orlais starts oppressing the Dales outright. Then we'd have problems, but maybe they could ally with Ferelden (or, if they're lucky, disgruntled nobles within Orlais).

I would never trust any human nation because they're the ones who put elves in a f***ed up position in the first place, I will ally with the Qun to make anyone think twice not to **** with elves. Besides the elves should be independent from the Empire anyways and simply leave each other alone and it would be no problem.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I would never trust any human nation because they're the ones who put elves in a f***ed up position in the first place, I will ally with the Qun to make anyone think twice not to **** with elves. Besides the elves should be independent from the Empire anyways and simply leave each other alone and it would be no problem.

No, it was elves that put elves in a terrible position in the first place. Specifically, this elf:

[Xilizhra]

Well since I've arranged Celene's untimely death & have Briala be the power behind the throne. And I'll put either Cassandra or Leliana on the Sunburst Throne after Corypheus has been defeated, they'll arrange negotiations for the elves have their homeland of their own. First I'll give Tevinter an opportunity to release the elven people from slavery, and if they refuse the elves would declare war with the support of the Inquisition, and temporary alliance with the Qun for a full scale invasion. Then they should pay reparations for thousands years of enslaving, and murdering their ancestors to the elves.

As of Trespasser, the Inquisition no longer has the means to wage war.

 

 

I would never trust any human nation because they're the ones who put elves in a f***ed up position in the first place, I will ally with the Qun to make anyone think twice not to **** with elves. Besides the elves should be independent from the Empire anyways and simply leave each other alone and it would be no problem.

You think the qunari are better? They try even harder than the Andrastians to eradicate foreign culture.

 

 

No, it was elves that put elves in a terrible position in the first place.

Blame can be spread around. Humans were the ones who enslaved the entire elven race, after all.

[IHaveReturned1999]

As of Trespasser, the Inquisition no longer has the means to wage war.

It's going to be right after Cory was defeated not 2 years later.

[In Exile]

Already, the Dales can have an elven ruler again by the end of DAI. This is an amazing first step that should be built upon, but we don't have to do anything drastic like ethnic cleansing.

But an autonomous region under Orlais governed by an elf with a multicultural and largely Andrastian society is totally different from an elven homeland. Maybe Orlais would condone more migrants, and as it modernized may it becomes less repressive on religion, but it's still Orlais.

[Xilizhra]

It's going to be right after Cory was defeated not 2 years later.

Remind me, how many elves in the world have you actually asked about this plan "right after?"

 

 

But an autonomous region under Orlais governed by an elf with a multicultural and largely Andrastian society is totally different from an elven homeland. Maybe Orlais would condone more migrants, and as it modernized may it becomes less repressive on religion, but it's still Orlais.

And Orlais is terrible, but I don't see any gain in throwing a boon like this away for the sake of ideological purity. What matters most is how much elven suffering can be alleviated, and if the Dales can exist as a safe haven for elves in general, that's an excellent first step.

[In Exile]

Well, yes, I suppose that can work, too. I thought we were specifically discussing an independent homeland.

But staying as just a predominantly elven province of Orlais, under an elven marquis (or just any marquis after her who'd actually be sympathetic to elves in the province and apply the law equally to all citizens) would be fine for the elves, too. At least, fine for the Orlesians who live there, anyway. Might be better than a separate nation eventually cus social practices in the Dales might bleed into and influence the overall social situation in the rest of Orlais with time.

Not as much as you think if the next Marquis isn't an elf or the next Emperor or Empress isn't as likely to endorse elven freedom.

[Xilizhra]

Not as much as you think if the next Marquis isn't an elf or the next Emperor or Empress isn't as likely to endorse elven freedom.

Finding an heir is Briala's job, no? Find an elven one, you're good to go. And Celene has time enough to find an heir to the Empire who'll play ball, I think.

[IHaveReturned1999]

Remind me, how many elves in the world have you actually asked about this plan "right after?"

My Elven Inquisitor and Briala would get together planning.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Not as much as you think if the next Marquis isn't an elf or the next Emperor or Empress isn't as likely to endorse elven freedom.

Well I did specify that any succeeding marquis would have to also be sympathetic to elves and be generally just in their mindset. Briala could indeed find or produce an heir that meets those reqs.

[Ghost Gal]

No, it was elves that put elves in a terrible position in the first place. Specifically, this elf:

 

His mistake doesn't excuse humanity's or the Qunari's actions.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Blame can be spread around. Humans were the ones who enslaved the entire elven race, after all.

His mistake doesn't excuse humanity's or the Qunari's actions.

I know. I just saw that as an opportunity to post that image.

[In Exile]

Finding an heir is Briala's job, no? Find an elven one, you're good to go. And Celene has time enough to find an heir to the Empire who'll play ball, I think.

Not necessarily. Ultimately, the state could take it all away from her. If, says I say, the next heir is not as willing. And I don't think Celene will have much leeway if she decided to remain faithful to Briala. She could name a heir or adopt (do Orlesians do it like Romans?). That might lead to challenges before the Council of whatevers.

Anyway my point is just that while I agree in the abstract with the idea and with Briala specifically in the Dales I think it's not a clearly stable long term solution now. It may not even be a short term one depending on racism.

[Xilizhra]

Not necessarily. Ultimately, the state could take it all away from her. If, says I say, the next heir is not as willing. And I don't think Celene will have much leeway if she decided to remain faithful to Briala. She could name a heir or adopt (do Orlesians do it like Romans?). That might lead to challenges before the Council of whatevers.

Anyway my point is just that while I agree in the abstract with the idea and with Briala specifically in the Dales I think it's not a clearly stable long term solution now. It may not even be a short term one depending on racism.

If it fails, we'll try another way, but we shouldn't discard the possibilities of it.

[The Ascendant]

I never really understood why would Elves become Andrastian. They have no place in the Chantry as an organisation, aside from being servants of course, and it doesn't seem to value them in any real way. Of course you have the odd one or two who genuinely believe in the Maker, Andraste and all that, but it seems to me that the ideas of the past have very little to do with the Chantry as an organisation.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I never really understood why would Elves become Andrastian. They have no place in the Chantry as an organisation, aside from being servants of course, and it doesn't seem to value them in any real way. Of course you have the odd one or two who genuinely believe in the Maker, Andraste and all that, but it seems to me that the Chantry as of now has very little to do with the Chantry as an organisation.

They don't have no place in the Chantry. Elves can become priests and priestesses in the Chantry, and occasionally they can even join the Templar Order. And that was the old Chantry, the new Chantry under Divine Victoria, especially Leliana, creates a lot of place for them. 

[Xilizhra]

Elves can become priests and priestesses in the Chantry

No, they cannot. They can serve the Chantry, but they cannot actually engage in ministry or achieve any higher ranks.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

No, they cannot. They can serve the Chantry, but they cannot actually engage in ministry or achieve any higher ranks.

They can become Brothers and Sisters, thus are priests and priestesses. They just can't be Mothers or higher. 

[The Ascendant]

When was the last time you ever saw an Elf priest or Templar? Be honest. The most you ever see of Elves related to the Chantry is in the Circle, and while a life in the Circle is no doubt better than one in the slums they don't exactly have a choice to be there.