1596 réponses à ce sujet

[Amburu]

"Inborn nature" is always some dangerous stuff to state, sociology can tell you

[The Ascendant]

"How delightful. It might move me to tears. Love, hate, pain, pleasure, life and death. All of it here to enjoy, right before our very eyes! It is so human, and yet so demonic!"- Slan of the God Hand, Berserk.

[Walter Black]

Maybe, just maybe, the plight of Elves as a downtrodden minority in Dragon Age has less to do with any commentary on the real world and more a reaction to the more prominent Elven fantasies in orther modern media. From Tolkien to Shannara, The Inheritence Cycle, any number of Dungeons & Dragons worlds to Everquest, Elves are idealized as inherently wiser, more beautiful, longer lived, more magical and closer to nature than most other races. Even in the Warhammer and Warcraft franchises where Elves are rounded out with more jerkass qualities, they still have inborn advantages (lorewise if not gameplay) over most other races. When I looked for people play D&D in college, I encountered a woman who wanted her Elven cleric to be the party's moral center for no other reason than that her character was an Elf. Not just that, she pointed out the game rules had the entire Elven race as Lawful Good by default, and resisted any attempts to have any evil, grey, or even silly Elven NPCs. Drow weren't real Elves, so they didn't count . With decades upon decades of these Mary Sues being the dominant veiw of Elves in high fantasy, is it any wonder David Gaider and Mike Laidlaw decided they could use a little humble pie?

 

What makes the whole "Dragon Age isn't doing proper Elves" even funnier is that image of the Mary Sue Elves is in itself a subversion. Prior to Lord of the Rings exploding in popularity, Elves being childish tricksters and/or humble servants was the mainstream Elven archetype. Even the more serious creature of Fairie like the Tuatha De Danann or the Aes Sidhe were more often than not wild, vain and cruel. Elves becoming more (at least in comparison to what had come before) serene and just was J.R.R. Tolkein's way of Christenizing their more Pagan themes. Far too many of Tolkein's imitators took only the surface elements without doing their homework, and now most people see Elves insufferably above everything.

 

Has Bioware gone too far in the other direction in their attempts to restore archetypal balance? Maybe, maybe not. I do agree that it's time the Elves got some kind of break in Dragon Age, if only for the writers to avoid repeating themselves. That said, I enjoyed the underdog Elves as a nice contrast to the Mary Sue variety. In the end, I simply feel attacking the writers for not doing "proper" Elves lacks historical context, as well as unfairly dismisses their attempts to explore more diverse Elven storylines.

[IHaveReturned1999]

Yeah....still completely untrue.

Really? Last time I checked @ Origins when an elf killed a noble, rebelled against human authority, or any kind of revolutionary act they'll be purged. And even Briala told me that if something happens to Celene, they'll put the blame on elves and every human nation wants to exterminate elves. So yes it's in their nature to be racists in any shape or form and you can't reason, befriend, or even bargain with them.

[Gervaise]

People who think that elves are depicted as perfect by Tolkein obviously haven't read his complete mythology.   Like all "good" races they are flawed.   They can be insufferable arrogant and superior at times.   They do scheme, they can be treacherous.    The main thing is that they do not side with the real bad guys: Morgoth, the original corrupt Valar, and Sauron, his general, a corrupt Maiar.   They have fallen from their original heights, even in Tolkein.   Their magic is failing and in order to survive they must return to the sunlit lands.    The 3 rings were the last bulwark against this decline.    

 

The important thing when comparing Tolkein with  Dragon Age, is that when given the choice between saving the elven people in Middle Earth and destroying the evil of the Ring, they opt for the latter.   The temptation to take the Ring is a very real one because they suspect that the elven rings will lose power with its destruction and "much that is fair will fade and be forgotten".    This is why when Galadriel rejects the offer of the Ring she says: "I will diminish and pass into the west and remain Galadriel".

 

In a way what the writers of Dragon Age have done is show what life is like for the elves in Middle Earth after the end of the 3rd Age.  Instead of the big evil being something else, they have decided it was the elves themselves and their false gods.    The Veil is the destruction of the Ring and what follows is the inevitable decline of the elven people.    Surely that was enough of a fall?    However, the writers decided not.    It was not enough that their empire was destroyed, their immortality and their magic stripped away, they decided to make them slaves as well, not just of their previous gods but the later human empire too.     These survivors then help defeat the evil human empire, only to be punished again and again.     That seems somewhat overkill if you are trying to counteract the fantasy trope of a magical super race.    Yet as I say, even in Tolkein by the period of the Lord of the Rings the elves are in decline.   In the Forgotten Realms setting there are only isolated pocket kingdoms on the mainland and I don't know where anyone gets the idea that elves are Lawful Good from, because in my D&D books the head of their pantheon is chaotic good.   Which means if you play an elf you can be neutral good, chaotic good, true neutral, or chaotic neutral, but not lawful.

 

Now we have a situation where an elf who still wields the power of old has returned to the world and instead of simply helping the survivors of his previous action to get the freedom from oppression they deserve after so long, which is something I would wholeheartedly support, he has been set up as the big bad who wants to sacrifice the world in order to reverse his previous action.   Essentially Solas wants to remake the Ring.    

[Iakus]

Maybe, just maybe, the plight of Elves as a downtrodden minority in Dragon Age has less to do with any commentary on the real world and more a reaction to the more prominent Elven fantasies in orther modern media. From Tolkien to Shannara, The Inheritence Cycle, any number of Dungeons & Dragons worlds to Everquest, Elves are idealized as inherently wiser, more beautiful, longer lived, more magical and closer to nature than most other races. Even in the Warhammer and Warcraft franchises where Elves are rounded out with more jerkass qualities, they still have inborn advantages (lorewise if not gameplay) over most other races. When I looked for people play D&D in college, I encountered a woman who wanted her Elven cleric to be the party's moral center for no other reason than that her character was an Elf. Not just that, she pointed out the game rules had the entire Elven race as Lawful Good by default, and resisted any attempts to have any evil, grey, or even silly Elven NPCs. Drow weren't real Elves, so they didn't count . With decades upon decades of these Mary Sues being the dominant veiw of Elves in high fantasy, is it any wonder David Gaider and Mike Laidlaw decided they could use a little humble pie?

 

What makes the whole "Dragon Age isn't doing proper Elves" even funnier is that image of the Mary Sue Elves is in itself a subversion. Prior to Lord of the Rings exploding in popularity, Elves being childish tricksters and/or humble servants was the mainstream Elven archetype. Even the more serious creature of Fairie like the Tuatha De Danann or the Aes Sidhe were more often than not wild, vain and cruel. Elves becoming more (at least in comparison to what had come before) serene and just was J.R.R. Tolkein's way of Christenizing their more Pagan themes. Far too many of Tolkein's imitators took only the surface elements without doing their homework, and now most people see Elves insufferably above everything.

 

Has Bioware gone too far in the other direction in their attempts to restore archetypal balance? Maybe, maybe not. I do agree that it's time the Elves got some kind of break in Dragon Age, if only for the writers to avoid repeating themselves. That said, I enjoyed the underdog Elves as a nice contrast to the Mary Sue variety. In the end, I simply feel attacking the writers for not doing "proper" Elves lacks historical context, as well as unfairly dismisses their attempts to explore more diverse Elven storylines.

It is a deconstruction of Tolkienesque elves.

 

You are right, elves since LOTR have been shown to be an inherently good, immortal, magical race more akin to angels than mortals. THough by the Third Age they were a race in decline, departing Middle Earth and leaving it for the mortal races.

 

Well, in THedas, the elves were a magical, immortal race (though not inherently "good") and they are in decline, with all that comes with it.  Thy are no longer immortal.  Their magic has failed them.  They are a persecuted minority rather than held in awe.  

[The Ascendant]

If anyone has read the Silmarillion then you know that some Elves can be even worse than any human. 

I like that comparison that the Elves of the post Veil world are parallels to the Elves who didn't leave Middle Earth and as a result became weaker and more diminished until they had no other real choice but to leave.

If the Elves do get a break I doubt it will be in the best interests of the human race.

[Gervaise]

The thing is we haven't been shown any real evidence yet that the humans suffered under the magical super race, which might make some of their treatment of the elves justified.   Instead it would seem that they simply benefitted from the destruction of the empire.   That is what is so annoying.   It is not that the elves aren't super powerful magical beings or they no longer have a magical realm to call their own; it is the constant oppression that is so depressing and the fact that you are not really permitted to do anything to change this.   In fact in DAI you are actively assisting the survival of the very institutions, the Chantry and the Empire of Orlais, that have brought the elves to this state in the south.    Now we are headed north to Tevinter, where the elves are still slaves and quite frankly if we can't do anything for them here (I want to help all slaves incidentally not just the elves) then what is the point of being a hero?     If I save Tevinter from the Qunari, then I expect something in return.    If I save the world from Solas, then I expect something better for the elves as my reward.   It's not that I wouldn't save the world anyway but it would nice to be appreciated.   (I usually play elves whenever I can).  

 

Why is it going to be so detrimental to the human race if the elves get a break?    So they won't have a constant whipping boy any more, how terrible!

[Ghost Gal]

The thing is we haven't been shown any real evidence yet that the humans suffered under the magical super race, which might make some of their treatment of the elves justified.   Instead it would seem that they simply benefitted from the destruction of the empire.   That is what is so annoying.

 

Give it time. I'm sure that's what will be revealed next game, then the narrative and fandom alike will treat it as justification for everything humans have done to elves since.

 

As it is, everyone jumps on the revelation that "the elves caused their own downfall" and "the elves enslaved each other" as "proof" that humanity is completely blameless in how they've treated elves nonstop ever since then. All they need is a revelation that ancient elves enslaved ancient humans before they crumbled due to their own civil war, and no one will ever entertain the idea that elves deserve more than scraps again. Not that many people do already.

[Shechinah]

Well, in THedas, the elves were a magical, immortal race (though not inherently "good") and they are in decline, with all that comes with it.  Thy are no longer immortal.  Their magic has failed them.  They are a persecuted minority rather than held in awe.  

 

That is a large part of why I like the elves of Dragon Age and found them very interesting. I was so used to seeing elves as being portrayed as always being right, always being beautiful and always being blah, blah, blah so it was so nice to see elves as they were in Dragon Age with genuine flaws and having imperfections that were intentional.

 

I love the lore of the elves from their history to their culture and so forth! Oh, I love roleplaying elves and I really hope we have the option of playing one in the next game!

[Hellion Rex]

The thing is we haven't been shown any real evidence yet that the humans suffered under the magical super race, which might make some of their treatment of the elves justified. Instead it would seem that they simply benefitted from the destruction of the empire. That is what is so annoying. It is not that the elves aren't super powerful magical beings or they no longer have a magical realm to call their own; it is the constant oppression that is so depressing and the fact that you are not really permitted to do anything to change this. In fact in DAI you are actively assisting the survival of the very institutions, the Chantry and the Empire of Orlais, that have brought the elves to this state in the south. Now we are headed north to Tevinter, where the elves are still slaves and quite frankly if we can't do anything for them here (I want to help all slaves incidentally not just the elves) then what is the point of being a hero? If I save Tevinter from the Qunari, then I expect something in return. If I save the world from Solas, then I expect something better for the elves as my reward. It's not that I wouldn't save the world anyway but it would nice to be appreciated. (I usually play elves whenever I can).

Why is it going to be so detrimental to the human race if the elves get a break? So they won't have a constant whipping boy any more, how terrible!

I honestly don't think we will necessarily have any major impact upon the slave trade in Tevinter. It's an institution that has been a part of the culture for for millennia. I think we won't break the cycle, but we might crack it, just a little one, but a crack nonetheless.

[Steelcan]

It is a deconstruction of Tolkienesque elves.

 

You are right, elves since LOTR have been shown to be an inherently good, immortal, magical race more akin to angels than mortals. THough by the Third Age they were a race in decline, departing Middle Earth and leaving it for the mortal races.

 

Well, in THedas, the elves were a magical, immortal race (though not inherently "good") and they are in decline, with all that comes with it.  Thy are no longer immortal.  Their magic has failed them.  They are a persecuted minority rather than held in awe.  

Do you even Silmarillion?

[Qun00]

"Inborn nature" is always some dangerous stuff to state, sociology can tell you

All that accomplishes is breeding more hate.

There are too many self-proclaimed "defenders of equality" out there promoting this sort of mindset.

MLK must be rolling in his grave.

[Shechinah]

I honestly don't think we will necessarily have any major impact upon the slave trade in Tevinter. It's an institution that has been a part of the culture for for millennia. I think we won't break the cycle, but we might crack it, just a little one, but a crack nonetheless.

 

I'm kind of hoping we don't get to stop the slave trade in Tevinter because it would be odd if we manage to do so given how dependent Tevinter is on it and I'd rather not see Tevinter fall since I find it to be a fascinating place.

 

I can, however, see us put something in motion that may create hope and the possible outcome that the slave trade in the future might slowly fade out or change like, say, by us helping the Lucerni open the door for future reforms that could change Tevinter even if it is through baby steps.

[Hellion Rex]

I'm kind of hoping we don't get to stop the slave trade in Tevinter because it would be odd if we manage to do so given how dependent Tevinter is on it and I'd rather not see Tevinter fall since I find it to be a fascinating place.

I can, however, see us put something in motion that may someday result in the slave trade slowly fading out or changing like, say, by helping the Lucerni opening the door for reforming the Tevinter Imperium even if it is through baby steps.

I got the sense that the Lucerni's agenda doesn't necessarily include stopping of the slave trade. Their priority is the corruption at the top, not necessarily those on the bottom rungs.

In some senses, I don't see their ideals that divorced from those of Calpernia.

[Shechinah]

I got the sense that the Lucerni's agenda doesn't necessarily include stopping of the slave trade. Their priority is the corruption at the top, not necessarily those on the bottom rungs.

In some senses, I don't see their ideals that divorced from those of Calpernia.

 

I got the perhaps mistaken impression that the Tevinter Imperium's heavy relience upon the slave trade stemmed from their decline and the difficult in challenging the status quo to deal with what is causing the decline such as corruption.  This is why I thought the Lucerni might open the door for reforms or such that could eventually lead to the slave trade being diminished,
 

[Hellion Rex]

I got the perhaps mistaken impression that the Tevinter Imperium's heavy relience upon the slave trade stemmed from their decline and the difficult in challenging the status quo to deal with what is causing the decline such as corruptuon. This is why I thought the Lucerni might open the door for reforms or such that could eventually lead to the slave trade being diminished,

Not necessarily? The slave trade flourished even at the country's zenith.

My only point was that the Lucerni addressing the slave trade might only be a means of attacking the corruption at the top (the blood magic, Venatori, the issues with the Magisterium, etc). I don't think the slave trade is necessarily the root cause of the corruption, but perhaps a symptom of it.

[Shechinah]

Hmm, I'm reminded of my own country's past history with slavery: I recall it transitioned into eventually becoming paid servitude but the reasons behind the transition escapes me. I'm of a mind to look it up for curiousity's sake.

 

Not that I think it would apply all that much to the Tevinter Imperium since I think slavery was very different in my country. As far as I know, there were not that many blood rituals held. Also, divorces were a thing but really, when both parties of a marriage likely comes from families that would know how to wield a weapon and could create blood feuds, it was likely the most sensible decision.

[IHaveReturned1999]

All that accomplishes is breeding more hate.
There are too many self-proclaimed "defenders of equality" out there promoting this sort of mindset.
MLK must be rolling in his grave.

Allow me to give you a little inside info:

Spoiler

Harry Belafonte came to Martin and he looked distraught and frightened, Harry asked him what's wrong and you know what he said? He said and quote: "I'm afraid that I let my people into a burning house." He regretted everything what he done of what he thought was right to have peace, but he realized that there will never be peace.

[Shechinah]

Heh, inside information. If it turned out you were time-travelling from a racially-charged period of past American history a lot of the content in your posts would make a lot more sense with that in mind. I'd still consider the content to be wrong but the percieved attitude would make more sense.

[Qun00]

That's just natural.

Anyone fighting for a good cause will break down sometimes and question the own accomplishments. The feeling of frustration at a world that never ceases to be corrupt and dark.

However, that doesn't mean he ever changed his mind about how hate can't be quenched with even more hate.

[Shechinah]

Not necessarily? The slave trade flourished even at the country's zenith.

My only point was that the Lucerni addressing the slave trade might only be a means of attacking the corruption at the top (the blood magic, Venatori, the issues with the Magisterium, etc). I don't think the slave trade is necessarily the root cause of the corruption, but perhaps a symptom of it.

 

Yeah, that is true although I didn't mean that I thought the slave trade was the root of the corruption. Just that I thought the decline of the Tevinter Imperium seemed to stem in large part from the corruption especially in that it seemed to prevent changes that could benefit the Imperium because people were blocking the efforts due to self-serving reasons.

[IHaveReturned1999]

That's just natural.
Anyone fighting for a good cause will break down sometimes and question the own accomplishments. The feeling of frustration at a world that never ceases to be corrupt and dark.
However, that doesn't mean he ever changed his mind about how hate can't be quenched with even more hate.

Tell that to the families who grieved for their loved ones @ the Charleston massacre.

[Shechinah]

Yeah, I see where this is going and I suggest we now return to our regularly scheduled program: Arlathvhen and topics about the elves of Thedas.

[Vit246]

Has Bioware gone too far in the other direction in their attempts to restore archetypal balance? Maybe, maybe not. I do agree that it's time the Elves got some kind of break in Dragon Age, if only for the writers to avoid repeating themselves. That said, I enjoyed the underdog Elves as a nice contrast to the Mary Sue variety. In the end, I simply feel attacking the writers for not doing "proper" Elves lacks historical context, as well as unfairly dismisses their attempts to explore more diverse Elven storylines.

 

I don't mind elves being the "underdog" in contrast to the "Mary Sue". I do kinda mind how the "underdog" elves seem to warrant the same kind of treatment as the "Mary Sue" variety. In their already miserable state of existence.