I don't mind elves being the "underdog" in contrast to the "Mary Sue". I do kinda mind how the "underdog" elves seem to warrant the same kind of treatment as the "Mary Sue" variety. In their already miserable state of existence.
I'm not sure I understand; could you elaborate or rephrase, please?
I do prefer the nuanced approach. It is naive to think that the oppressed are perfect in any way.
Example: I can see what lead to the fall of the Dales and I think the elves' isolationist policy including their refusal to aid against the Blight had a part in what eventually lead to the fall. This does not mean that I think what happened to the elves then and certainly not what is happening to the elves now was or is something they deserved.
My Inquisitor was a lovely Dalish who loved history including that of the other races and for her, such considerations of history is something that could help history not being repeated. I love that pointy-eared little bookworm.
I would also like to note that I liked that the Lavellan clan was a clan that had a friendly relationship with some human settlements. It was something we'd heard of previously so it was nice to "see" it in the game for the lack of a better word.
They aren't portrayed as perfect. In fact in both Orlais and in Tevinter the servant/slave class often collaborate in maintaining the system. Servants scheme against servants to get better positions (Briala's mother). Slaves and Liberati scheme against one another to get a foot higher up the ladder. Look at Fenris' sister who was willing to sell out her brother for the promise of advancement. Dorian is also probably right that some slaves are a lot better treated than Soporati and Liberati in the slums. I believe the agent who recruits Marius and Tessa in the Mage Killer series is an elven slave of the Archon. He'd clearly rather be working for the Archon in Tevinter than "free" in the south.
However, saying that the oppressed aren't perfect and therefore they don't deserve any better, is another matter altogether. It is strange and rather ironic to think that the first nation to adopt the Maker and Andraste as their religion still has slavery at its heart. Every empire in the real world was reliant on slavery at some point but eventually the majority of people decided it was wrong. Usually it was outlawed one nation at a time. Perhaps that is the problem with Tevinter, it is still too big and its economy still too dependent on slaves.
Mind you, when the slaves revolt en mass to coincide with the Qunari invasion (as engineered by agents of the Qun) then they are going to wish they did something sooner. Of course the writers may not go with that plotline but I'd be very surprised if they don't.
Mind you, when the slaves revolt en mass to coincide with the Qunari invasion (as engineered by agents of the Qun) then they are going to wish they did something sooner. Of course the writers may not go with that plotline but I'd be very surprised if they don't.
I think we are likely going to see a slave revolt if we are going to the Tevinter Imperium although I doubt it'll be a successful slave revolt given what we've heard even with Qunari aid.
For one of the threads where we came up with ideas for Dragon Age 4 for fun, I had the thought of an elven criminal whose family originally fled the Qun because they thought the Tevinter Imperium would be better or the other way around. In both cases, the thief's family discovered that they were not much better off in Tevinter with one sister dying on the trip there and the second sister being sacrificed by a member of the household she served at.
The thief had developed the attitude that things always seemed greener but seldom were. Because of this, he never attempted to leave the Imperium even though he had the means and connections to do so. He knew the ways of the Imperium's underworld and was working his way up the ladder there so he didn't care for the idea of having to start over somewhere else simply because it might be better.
I liked that guy; he was basically in favor of pragmatic villainy: he didn't like to do things just because. He didn't like people doing evil just because and he didn't like people doing good just because.
I wonder if the old elves had an equivalent to the Circles where they taught their mages to use their powers?
Also, do we actually know for sure yet if they all had magic?
According to Solas, having magic was part of being elven so everybody had it. It's likely that there were educational institutes like the ones in Tevinter where people could study magic. It is also likely that people of certain status had learned some at home.
Could be interesting if the slaves knew more than basic magic since it could make sense given that it would make them more effective at their task.
I doubt it. I think there'll be a good number who don't heed the Call. But, to be fair, Solas probably throws one hell of a sales pitch to those elves who suffer under the current institutions of power.I just hope they don't too much follow the Trespasser thing where almost all the elves are some sort of terrorist or traitor, except the one who doesn't like anything elfy.
I doubt it. I think there'll be a good number who don't heed the Call. But, to be fair, Solas probably throws one hell of a sales pitch to those elves who suffer under the current institutions of power.
I could see the appeal to non-Dalish elves: most of the ones that followed would likely not believe Solas as an elven god but they would likely see Solas as a revolutionary leader. I would consider it very silly if all elves, Dalish and non-Dalish, followed Solas.
I do hope we have the option of playing an elf especially if the next plot does have Solas around and especially if the Inquisitor is not since it would be nice to have the option of dealing with him and his plans as an elf.
I'm not sure I understand; could you elaborate or rephrase, please?
Hmm...how to articulate this...
Well.... you know how.... in other fantasies like Warhammer (40k and fantasy) and Elders Crolls they got those not-underdog elves in the prime of their power and greatness in history or at least or par with other nations or something, and they're very full of hubris and arrogance and superiority, and that just makes you want to "take them down a peg" and apply the "Screw You Elves!" trope and you feel justified in doing whatever to them...
And elves in DA, well, you know how they compare to other elves, and people still want to take them down a peg becuz !elves. And now with the revelations of DAI, Mankind is now totally blameless at best, and at worst they're justified, for the 1st and 2nd fall of the elves. The elves caused their own downfall for the most part and Tevinter's conquest and centuries of slavery don't matter cuz elves enslaved themselves first. The fall of the Dales is now solely on the elves cuz of the standoffish-ness and isolationism and the Red Crossing cuz "they shot first". Never mind how Orlais had/has a history of imperialism, with the conquering its neighbors territories and forcefully converting them. And now the Creators get a kind of total character assassination as false gods with virtually no redeeming qualities and the Vallaslin are slave markings and the elves "got everything wrong" and its their fault and they should just stop concerning themselves with history and "look to the future" and "adapt".
Bleh, I'm not good at this. And I'm tired.
Do you even Silmarillion?
Tried several times. Man that's tough to read, even as a Tolkien fan. I was able to read The Children of Hurin when Christopher TOlkien published that.
But my understanding is that while many elves of the time (especially Feanor and his sons) could be arrogant and prideful (sound familiar, Solas?) to the point of kinslaying. But it seems much of that could be traced to a foolish oath that they swore and could not later forsake.
The only elf I know of that deliberately turned to evil was Maeglin, who betrayed the location of Gondolin to Morgoth in exchange for lordship of the city and his cousin Idril (whom he was in love with 
)
I also loved how Badass some of the Elves were in the story. Fingolfin had balls of steel to duel Morgoth himself at the height of his power and even managed to wound him a few times.
The problems of the Feanor and his sons being attributed to a foolish oath they swore may well be mirrored in discovering that Solas is bound by some sort of oath he swore to Mythal.
As for how the elves learned magic under the rule of the Evanuris, the only real example is the one given in the Library. There the elves are seated in an amphitheatre and receiving a lecture in magic from a spirit of learning. That probably is pretty much how it was done. You don't have to be possessed to get your learning from spirits because they can freely interact with you.
Another entry talks about exploring the deeper reaches of the Fade. It says to "put aside ten years for practice, and the next hundred for learning". Is it surprising that the elves considered humans hasty creatures when they can spent a hundred years on an aspect of learning. A human will have been born, raised a family and died during the same period. For human peasants that would be two life times. It is nearly impossible to compare two types of civilisation when the time scales are so different.
The Dalish also say how spells could take decades, even centuries. It seems they were right about this. The entry about exploring the Fade also mentions how "What others have learned will ease your journey". So knowledge would appear to be freely passed on. The construction of the Grand Sollanium would also seem to show that elves were capable of working together in concert in very large numbers in order to complete a project. This enabled them to build some of the elaborate structures built on magic that made up the empire. One wonders if mages in the modern world, in somewhere like Tevinter, would be capable of working together in such co-operative fashion even if they had access to the magic of the Fade as these did.
I doubt it. I think there'll be a good number who don't heed the Call. But, to be fair, Solas probably throws one hell of a sales pitch to those elves who suffer under the current institutions of power.
I think the elves we see in that epilogue slide in Tresspasser is actually Solas' agents being recalled/reassigned, not previously unaligned elves that he's persuading to join him.
I also loved how Badass some of the Elves were in the story. Fingolfin had balls of steel to duel Morgoth himself at the height of his power and even managed to wound him a few times.
I remember liking Maedhras a lot. Wasn't too fond of most of the Feanorians, though. I never got the impression they *couldn't* reneg on their oath so much as they refused to out of pride and it made me want to hit most of them.
... Very similar to my reactions to Solas, actually. Minus the romantic involvement with my own character to muddy the waters, course.
I really don't want one, to be honest. It's been done before, and I think the game needs to be grounded in the current people of Thedas, not those of its past.Here's an idea for an Origins for Elves in the next game. We play as an Elf who was in Uthenera for millennia and have to cope with the new world we find ourselves in. Kind of like Fallout 4, instead of 200 years make it 2000 years. If not our PC then a companion perhaps? Then again they did something similar with Solas and again with Javik... Maybe we just find one buried under Minrathous to serve as our source of information? I don't know, just a thought, probably unlikely but still just a thought.
I admired and respected the Dalish Elves because they never submit to the Chantry, they look out for each other and love each other as family, and they would fight to the bitter end to protect their people. And I understand why they want to collect their lost history, and culture was taken away from slavery and the Chantry. They have a lot to answer for.
Unless they have more than three mages, in which case they kick one out into the cold to fend for themselves, even if they are still a child. 
Let alone the individual cases.
My point is in their inborn nature to hate anyone who's different but not all of them wants to kill elves.
Again, you are objectively wrong. Josephine for example doesn't hate anyone who is different.
Never said they were perfect and the writers should've wrote that better (And this is why it should be a multicultural writers and not just sexually diverse writers), the indigenous tribes that were led by shaman they seek and evaluate children who has the aptitude for spirituality so they take them and teach them how to be shaman. And just because one woman doesn't hate elves doesn't mean it'll grant immunity of humans for the hate crimes they commit against elves.Unless they have more than three mages, in which case they kick one out into the cold to fend for themselves, even if they are still a child.
Let alone the individual cases.
Again, you are objectively wrong. Josephine for example doesn't hate anyone who is different.
Modifié par IHaveReturned1999, 28 juillet 2016 - 12:19 .
Unless they have more than three mages, in which case they kick one out into the cold to fend for themselves, even if they are still a child.
Let alone the individual cases.
We have been over this. The policy makes no logical sense. It goes against the lore and what they're all about. And it exists solely to make the Circle system look like the only good alternative. Just to shut people up about alternative magic systems becuz Bioware is about "Muh grey morality!"
And then after that comes the Avvar with their mages. Let it never be said that Bioware plans things out carefully and cares about consistency.
We have been over this. The policy makes no logical sense. It goes against the lore and what they're all about. And it exists solely to make the Circle system look like the only good alternative. Just to shut people up about alternative magic systems becuz Bioware is about "Muh grey morality!"
And then after that comes the Avvar with their mages. Let it never be said that Bioware plans things out carefully and cares about consistency.
no it makes perfect sense as a last alternative
no it makes perfect sense as a last alternative
NO IT DOES NOT.
The Dalish do not have an Andrastian shemlen attitude to mages and they revere amgic as a gift from the gods and they're motivated by a fear of magic dying out amongst them. Family and community is important to them as survivalists. They avoid humans partly because humans tend to either kill their mages or take them to the Circles. Minaeve does not make sense and serves as a juvenile mouthpiece of Bioware who wanted their goddamn arbitrary grey morality. You're gonna tell me with a straight face that instead of just keeping and training her as a 4th mage like the rest, they're gonna kick her out becuz fear of possession (I can't imagine how being abandoned in the woods is totally not gonna increase risk of possession) and hope that she finds a human village or circle that won't kill her the first time, the same humans the elves avoid for a reason because they fear for their mages?
We have been over this. The policy makes no logical sense. It goes against the lore and what they're all about. And it exists solely to make the Circle system look like the only good alternative. Just to shut people up about alternative magic systems becuz Bioware is about "Muh grey morality!"
And then after that comes the Avvar with their mages. Let it never be said that Bioware plans things out carefully and cares about consistency.
It kind of sounds more so as if you are merely unhappy with the way Bioware has chosen to paint the narrative, instead of the way you idealize it to be.
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