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[Bayonet Hipshot]

People who think that elves are depicted as perfect by Tolkein obviously haven't read his complete mythology.   Like all "good" races they are flawed.   They can be insufferable arrogant and superior at times.   They do scheme, they can be treacherous.    The main thing is that they do not side with the real bad guys: Morgoth, the original corrupt Valar, and Sauron, his general, a corrupt Maiar.   They have fallen from their original heights, even in Tolkein.   Their magic is failing and in order to survive they must return to the sunlit lands.    The 3 rings were the last bulwark against this decline.    

 

The important thing when comparing Tolkein with  Dragon Age, is that when given the choice between saving the elven people in Middle Earth and destroying the evil of the Ring, they opt for the latter.   The temptation to take the Ring is a very real one because they suspect that the elven rings will lose power with its destruction and "much that is fair will fade and be forgotten".    This is why when Galadriel rejects the offer of the Ring she says: "I will diminish and pass into the west and remain Galadriel".

 

In a way what the writers of Dragon Age have done is show what life is like for the elves in Middle Earth after the end of the 3rd Age.  Instead of the big evil being something else, they have decided it was the elves themselves and their false gods.    The Veil is the destruction of the Ring and what follows is the inevitable decline of the elven people.    Surely that was enough of a fall?    However, the writers decided not.    It was not enough that their empire was destroyed, their immortality and their magic stripped away, they decided to make them slaves as well, not just of their previous gods but the later human empire too.     These survivors then help defeat the evil human empire, only to be punished again and again.     That seems somewhat overkill if you are trying to counteract the fantasy trope of a magical super race.    Yet as I say, even in Tolkein by the period of the Lord of the Rings the elves are in decline.   In the Forgotten Realms setting there are only isolated pocket kingdoms on the mainland and I don't know where anyone gets the idea that elves are Lawful Good from, because in my D&D books the head of their pantheon is chaotic good.   Which means if you play an elf you can be neutral good, chaotic good, true neutral, or chaotic neutral, but not lawful.

 

Now we have a situation where an elf who still wields the power of old has returned to the world and instead of simply helping the survivors of his previous action to get the freedom from oppression they deserve after so long, which is something I would wholeheartedly support, he has been set up as the big bad who wants to sacrifice the world in order to reverse his previous action.   Essentially Solas wants to remake the Ring.    

 

Solas + Sauron = Solauron ?

 

[IHaveReturned1999]

I think elves should be more ethnic diverse anyways in my opinion.

[Gervaise]

You know, I don't care how repetitive I seem, I am going to rail against the 3-mage rule until one of the writers actually admits that Minaeve's clan was an exception, not the norm.    There is no logical reason why the Dalish would kick out any mage, let alone a young child, simply because they had magic.

 

1) Magic "is a proud part of their culture".   They believe they were all once mages (correct).   They want to get back to their ancient ways, which by implication, means that ultimately they are working towards the day when everyone in the clan is a mage. 

 

2) The clan leader is a mage.   Why would you have someone leading you if you are afraid that at any moment they could become possessed?  The reason they have a mage as the Keeper is because they are closer to their ideal of what an elf should be, i.e. they have magic.

  

3) They are worried at the loss of mages among the clans.   Not enough are being born, so that some clans are left with the very real possibility of not having a mage Keeper to lead them.  This was the origin of the 3-mage rule.  If one clan had only an aging Keeper and the other already had a Keeper, a 1st and a 2nd, then they would allow the other clan to adopt the extra mage.   It is quite unusual for children as young as Merrill and Minaeve to actually display magic.   We are told this normally happens at puberty.   There would probably be some movement of individuals between clans at this time anyway, in order to avoid in-breeding of close relatives, so the mage moving to another clan would normally be just part of this overall process.

 

The only time a clan would specifically banish a member is if they are doing something that is considered to be putting the rest of the clan at risk.    This is what happened with Merrill.   She refused to give up her blood magic and her associations with a demon, so she was asked to leave.    That was her choice.   If she had reconsidered and agreed to abide by the laws of the clan, she would have been readmitted.     In this case she had actually been doing something specific with her magic that caused them concern.    It was not the simple fact of having magic at all that they considered a threat.

 

Dalish culture puts loyalty and faith in family and clan above everything else.   They believe that one of their gods, Dirthamen promoted this.   Abandoning one of their children in the wilds when they had done nothing wrong except have the gift of magic would be considered an offence against their gods, let alone common decency.   If part of the belief system is that they have to prove themselves worthy of their gods before they will return, doing this to a mage child would actually be jeopardizing this.   They just would not do it.  All members of the clan would be precious unless they contravene some law of the clan that is kept for their own safety.  Only then would then be asked to leave. 

[Xilizhra]

Personally, I'm hoping that it's possible to work with Solas in the next game. That'd make up for a lot of DAI's missteps.

[Gervaise]

I was re-reading his conversation with you in Trespasser again.    He gives three reasons for taking his action:

 

1) He wanted to punish the Evanuris by consigning them to an eternity of torment

2) He wasn't sure if he could permanently kill them anyway.

3) They were going to destroy the whole world.

 

This last one is the explanation that gives me the most problems.   If they were going to destroy the whole world, then obviously even destroying the world of the elves as he did must have been preferable.  Even if he had known in advance the consequences of raising the Veil, would he have acted any differently?   

 

If he reverses the process, surely the whole world is still going to be at risk.    There is no point in restoring the world of the elves if it will in turn be destroyed.  

 

I also find his terminology somewhat bewildering at times.   If you say of someone that you have banished them "forever", that means they can't come back.    If simply tripping the lock on their prison will release them, then the words "forever" and "eternity" really aren't applicable because it was always a temporary situation so long as they were alive and the prison could be opened.    If a decision or action can be reversed then it is not forever.

[Inkvisiittori]

You know, I don't care how repetitive I seem, I am going to rail against the 3-mage rule until one of the writers actually admits that Minaeve's clan was an exception, not the norm.    There is no logical reason why the Dalish would kick out any mage, let alone a young child, simply because they had magic.

 

I believe it was an exception. Lavellan can even tell her that her clan never did anything like that. If there are too many mages in a clan and no other clan can take them - then they could just start a new clan. All dalish clan's are different however. Some might very well have more superstitious views than others when it comes to magic.

[The Ascendant]

Did that Arlthvhen happen or was mentioned anywhere?

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Personally, I'm hoping that it's possible to work with Solas in the next game. 

I may want to bring down the veil, provided it can be done without killing everyone. Its the natural state of Thedas to have no veil. And the veil is thinning by itself overtime anyway, so eventually that damn will burst. Better it be controlled than not. If bringing it down without massive harm is not possible, then I'd like to find a way to repair and upkeep the veil without harming anyone. So, if there are ancient elves trapped in uthenera or the Fade as some speculate, then I'd work with him to figure out how to get them out. 

 

Basically, "Solas, I'll work with you. Just stop being stupid." is me and my Lavellan's attitude.  lol

 

I was re-reading his conversation with you in Trespasser again.    He gives three reasons for taking his action:

 

1) He wanted to punish the Evanuris by consigning them to an eternity of torment

2) He wasn't sure if he could permanently kill them anyway.

3) They were going to destroy the whole world.

 

This last one is the explanation that gives me the most problems.   If they were going to destroy the whole world, then obviously even destroying the world of the elves as he did must have been preferable.  Even if he had known in advance the consequences of raising the Veil, would he have acted any differently?   

I'd be interested in Solas' answer to that question. I think he doesn't know. The veil was a final move of desperation. I think he was never entirely sure it was the right thing, just the last thing he could think of. And now he's actually had to live with and experience the consequences of it firsthand and the accompanying guilt.

 

I think he did know that a lot of what would happen (buildings destroyed and many people killed) would happen, and this was part of why he fell asleep after doing it and stayed under as long as he did. I am betting that the Dalish belief that the Dread Wolf was hysterical and hugging himself in some corner of the Fade is actually tragically accurate, just not for the reasons they think. It wasn't glee, it was a breakdown.

 

If he reverses the process, surely the whole world is still going to be at risk.    There is no point in restoring the world of the elves if it will in turn be destroyed.  

 

I also find his terminology somewhat bewildering at times.   If you say of someone that you have banished them "forever", that means they can't come back.    If simply tripping the lock on their prison will release them, then the words "forever" and "eternity" really aren't applicable because it was always a temporary situation so long as they were alive and the prison could be opened.    If a decision or action can be reversed then it is not forever.

He meant it to be forever at the time, I suppose? Like, the imprisonment was supposed to be self-perpetuating as long as the veil was up?

 

And maybe he is banking on them being weakened by whatever their imprisonment has done to them (I sincerely doubt it was just them being confined to a tower all this time), and hoping he can take them now with his power boost? Or is planning to boost himself further before he opens the prison? Or perhaps he hopes that they'll be disoriented enough by the chaos of a veiled world and/or the dropping of the veil that he can get a nuke off before they notice?

 

Either way, he is apparently planning on dealing with the Evanuris when he drops the veil so his "world of the elves" will not be imperiled. If he succeeds, of course. If he fails, apparently it was worth the risk. :/

[Hellion Rex]

I may want to bring down the veil, provided it can be done without killing everyone. Its the natural state of Thedas to have no veil. And the veil is thinning by itself overtime anyway, so eventually that damn will burst. Better it be controlled than not. If bringing it down without massive harm is not possible, then I'd like to find a way to repair and upkeep the veil without harming anyone. So, if there are ancient elves trapped in uthenera or the Fade as some speculate, then I'd work with him to figure out how to get them out.

Basically, "Solas, I'll work with you. Just stop being stupid." lol

He meant it to be forever at the time, I suppose? Like, the imprisonment was supposed to be self-perpetuating as long as the veil was up?

And maybe he is banking on them being weakened by whatever their imprisonment has done to them (I sincerely doubt it was just them being confined to a tower all this time), and hoping he can take them now with his power boost? Or is planning to boost himself further before he opens the prison? Or perhaps he hopes that they'll be disoriented enough by the chaos of a veiled world and/or the dropping of the veil that he can get a nuke off before they notice?

Either way, he is apparently planning on dealing with the Evanuris when he drops the veil so his "world of the elves" will not be imperiled. If he succeeds, of course. If he fails, apparently it was worth the risk. :/

On the grand scale, for the ancient elves, it was perhaps more natural, but there is absolutely no guarantee that the other races could survive either the transition or even live necessarily in a world saturated with so much magic.

Also, we have no conclusive proof that the Veil was thinning on its own, as tears and rips were able to be mended even before the big Breach.

As to the elves that still lie asleep (if they have managed to survive), I would be very wary, as there is no guarantee that they'll not treat this world harshly, in the same vein as Solas.

And for the Evanuris, he got the drop on them once. Just because they were trapped does not mean that their power waned necessarily. And to be honest, it would not be surprising if they somehow know that Fen'Harel is coming for them, and have planned accordingly.

Solas will probably try to boost himself further. He may have Mythal's "power" now, but I still think he needs a somnaborium to bring down the Veil, as he still lacks an orb. Then, he may be able to fight them. But even then, there are still a bunch of them and one of him. I do not think he will get off lightly in this second showdown.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

(Pardon the wall of text in advance, please.)

 

On the grand scale, for the ancient elves, it was perhaps more natural, but there is absolutely no guarantee that the other races could survive either the transition or even live necessarily in a world saturated with so much magic.

Also, we have no conclusive proof that the Veil was thinning on its own, as tears and rips were able to be mended even before the big Breach.

When was a thinned veil able to be mended? I know we've defeated the stuff that's pressed through in those spots, but the veil stayed thinned, didn't it? 

 

As to the elves that still lie asleep (if they have managed to survive), I would be very wary, as there is no guarantee that they'll not treat this world harshly, in the same vein as Solas.

I'd be wary of any ancients we awoke if for no other reason than they may very well try to kill Solas once they get their bearings. And yeah, they could be mad at the rest of the world and end up causing their own chaos. I'd definitely be wary. But this is people's lives at stake, so I'd take the chance. One at a time. With precautions. And a psychiatrist on hand if possible.

 

And for the Evanuris, he got the drop on them once. Just because they were trapped does not mean that their power waned necessarily. And to be honest, it would not be surprising if they somehow know that Fen'Harel is coming for them, and have planned accordingly.

Solas will probably try to boost himself further. He may have Mythal's "power" now, but I still think he needs a somnaborium to bring down the Veil, as he still lacks an orb. Then, he may be able to fight them. But even then, there are still a bunch of them and one of him. I do not think he will get off lightly in this second showdown.

I don't think he'd succeed against the Evanuris. I think he's underestimating them. They've had all this time to plot their revenge against him. Even if they've been prone and not able to actually work on their spellcraft in preparation for him (and that's unlikely), that level of spite is just not something you go up against easily. They'll act in ways he won't predict. Its basically guaranteed. If he goes against them alone, he's dead.

 

I'd definitely want to be there and help b/c, regardless of Solas' plans, I think the Evanuris are going to be a threat to all people of good will. One or two of them might be ok, or at least were at one time. But now? Even if someone were semi-reasonable before (which they may very well not have been, but for argument's sake), they're not likely to come out of thousands of years of imprisonment all that sane. Especially when its imprisonment that likely involved at least some form of "torment", if Solas had his way. 

[MisterJB]

If there are too many mages in a clan and no other clan can take them - then they could just start a new clan.

They're going to start a new clan?

What, are they going to drop the mage into the woods and watch as s/he reproduces through fission?

 

Or kick out two mages of different genders and create Theda's own ills with eyes?

[MisterJB]

When was a thinned veil able to be mended? I know we've defeated the stuff that's pressed through in those spots, but the veil stayed thinned, didn't it? 

 

I'd be wary of any ancients we awoke if for no other reason than they may very well try to kill Solas once they get their bearings. And yeah, they could be mad at the rest of the world and end up causing their own chaos. I'd definitely be wary. But this is people's lives at stake, so I'd take the chance. One at a time. With precautions.

Sure, in Warden's Keep you're specifically told you're strengthening the Veil.

 

Wait, whose lives are at stake?

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Sure, in Warden's Keep you're specifically told you're strengthening the Veil.

 

Wait, whose lives are at stake?

If there are elves stuck in uthenera or some other state b/c of the veil, their lives are at stake. I'm not sure there are. Far as I know, it's a fandom hypothetical based off of some Cole banter and level observations in Trespasser. It has merit to it, but I'm not sure its correct.

 

And do you mean soldier's peak or vigil's keep? I want to know what I have to replay now. lol Did they say how exactly we strengthened the veil?

[MisterJB]

Warden's Keep, the DLC. I remember siding with the demon will lead to that dialogue.

[Reznore57]

Tears in the veil were known before DAI , and yes you could mend them with mages and magic .http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Veil

It is supposed to be difficult though.

[IHaveReturned1999]

What I don't understand is why the Ancient Elves look down on the elves who've been terrorized for thousands of years and counting, and they're the ones who is responsible for their downfall in the first place. They owed then a great deal and they are still their people.

[MisterJB]

You don't understand how people could feel separate from and morally superior to a different group of people?

You?

[Iakus]

What I don't understand is why the Ancient Elves look down on the elves who've been terrorized for thousands of years and counting, and they're the ones who is responsible for their downfall in the first place. They owed then a great deal and they are still their people.

Why do the Dalish look down on city elves?

[IHaveReturned1999]

This is why they should get culturally diverse writers to write about the Elves better, the whole "I'm better than you" especially looking down @ their own people doesn't fly with me. If they're smart they'll seek out the elves @ human cities and offer them a choice to leave and reconnect with their tribe, and be free and live without fear. Maybe the whole "I'm superior" thing is a symptom of traumatic slave syndrome that links to their genetic memory from their ancestors enslaved by Tevinter.

[Hellion Rex]

Tears in the veil were known before DAI , and yes you could mend them with mages and magic .http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Veil
It is supposed to be difficult though.

Quite. We have seen it so far only with an upper level demon, a high level spirit, and then a century old blood mage.

I'd imagine Tevinter has a way to do it too, otherwise I would figure their Veil would have been destroyed years ago. That said, I imagine that's almost permanently thin in that country.

[Hellion Rex]

(Pardon the wall of text in advance, please.)

When was a thinned veil able to be mended? I know we've defeated the stuff that's pressed through in those spots, but the veil stayed thinned, didn't it?

I'd be wary of any ancients we awoke if for no other reason than they may very well try to kill Solas once they get their bearings. And yeah, they could be mad at the rest of the world and end up causing their own chaos. I'd definitely be wary. But this is people's lives at stake, so I'd take the chance. One at a time. With precautions. And a psychiatrist on hand if possible.

I don't think he'd succeed against the Evanuris. I think he's underestimating them. They've had all this time to plot their revenge against him. Even if they've been prone and not able to actually work on their spellcraft in preparation for him, and they likely have, that level of spite is just not something you go up against easily. They'll act in ways he won't predict. Its basically guaranteed. If he goes against them alone, he's dead.

I'd definitely want to be there and help b/c, regardless of Solas' plans, I think the Evanuris are going to be a threat to all people of good will. One or two of them might be ok, or at least were at one time. But now? Even if someone were semi-reasonable before (which they may very well not have been, but for argument's sake), they're not likely to come out of thousands of years of imprisonment all that sane. Especially when its imprisonment that likely involved at least some form of "torment", if Solas had his way.

Lol. I was saying to be wary of them because they might help Solas carry out his plan of genocide, not because they might kill him.

I'm personally in the kill Solas camp, myself. If they prove to be non agreessive nor threatening, then I'd let them go on their way. But if they pose any sort of perceived threat, I would have no issue with killing them to protect the rest of Thedas. One ancient elf has already cause mayhem that has spanned nations. We don't need more of that on our hands.

[Gervaise]

The reason the Dalish look down on city elves is that they stay in the cities being oppressed instead of going for independence as they do, however hard that might be.   Contrary to the impression given in Masked Empire, the Dalish are welcoming to city elves that flee to them.  It is not just done out of pity as Thelhen suggests or to keep numbers up, although I imagine that is a consideration, but because they do feel a kinship with them.    They are keeping the traditions going and searching for bits of their old culture so they maintain the sense of elven identity and will have something to share with their city elf brethren when they finally have a homeland again.   Even the city elves try and do their bit to maintain their culture with their tree and stories they can remember but it is much more difficult when you are under the noses of the Chantry.   The reason the Dalish don't do more for the city elves is that they simply do not have the numbers and it is a daily battle for survival out in the wilds.   

 

The elf merchant in DAO even says how his caravan was attacked (I think it was by human bandits but not sure), then the Dalish drove them off and came back to scavenge but when they saw the goods belonged to a city elf, they left them alone.   There were also elves in the alienage telling stories of city elves running off to join the clans.   Zevran ran off to join them and only went back to the Crows because he didn't like the squalor of living in the woods, not because the Dalish were unwilling to take him.  It now turns out that his mother didn't return to her clan when her husband died because the Crows forced her into prostitution to pay off his debts, not because her clan wouldn't take her.   Zathrian rescued Layana, who would seem to have been a city elf, and she finally rose to become his first.  

 

The ancient elves do not recognise the modern elves are their People because to them they are mere shadows, just as Solas thinks they are not real or more like tranquil.  The ancient ones, born before the Veil was raised, recognise something fundamentally different in the ones who came after.   Even so, they are their descendants, and considering much of the time they have been asleep in the intervening years, the gap between them is not as great as they maintain.    However, it would seem the best that modern elves can hope for from the ancient ones is being called "Da'len", with that sort of emphasis.  This is what Felassan uses to both Briala and Mihris because to him they are "Little children".   That is something at least, because he does actually recognise some sort of kinship with them.   Then Fen'Harel killed him for it.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Lol. I was saying to be wary of them because they might help Solas carry out his plan of genocide, not because they might kill him.

Well, yes.That, too. lol That's what I meant by causing their own chaos. Though, technically that would be causing chaos with him, of course. 

 

But I admit I do want to protect Solas, if possible. As in, if it doesn't endanger the world. If it endangers my character alone, its a no brainer. Hopefully, it can be managed so that it doesn't endanger anyone in the end, though. Definitely in the "save our friend from himself" camp.

[Hellion Rex]

Lol, different stroke, different folks. The joys of having options in an RPG. I won't begrudge your choice as long as you extend the same courtesy to me.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Lol, different stroke, different folks. The joys of having options in an RPG. I won't begrudge your choice as long as you extend the same courtesy to me.

Well, its not like you killing him is gonna kill him in my game, so. lol  I do hope they can work it so that we both get the options we want within a satisfying storyline (in both DA4 and beyond).