1599 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

You misunderstand. Solas being a genocidal maniac, period, is a bad plot.

If a human mage can be a genocidal maniac, why not an elf?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Fancy that, many elves aren't as you say.

Then it's a good thing I never speak in absolutes that say all members of this group are like this, isn't it? 

[Gervaise]

No one knows precisely what the situation was in the Dales concerning religion.   Likely there were those, like Ameridan, who honoured both the Maker/Andraste and their own gods.   Unfortunately that wasn't good enough for the Chantry and Drakon.   Ameridan had misgivings that Drakon wanted to "keep things simple".  I recall that Solas uses exactly the same phrase about the Evanuris.    What the Dalish would have observed was that in the period leading up to when Ameridan was frozen in time, Drakon had wiped out every other religion and every other version of Andraste that was not his own.   The doctrine of the Chantry was that the Maker would only return when the whole world embraced the Chant (their version of it).    That was Drakon's whole justification for his bloody crusade.  He combined conversion with absorbing the converts into his Empire.   So the view of many of the Dalish in Ameridan's time that Drakon was no better than Tevinter was not simple prejudice but based on fact. 

 

Now my point about the City elves not being particularly devout Andrastrians is that it would be rather odd if they were, considering the religion actually teaches they are inferior to humans, has wiped all record of their heroes from history and has upheld and maintained the idea of the Divine Right of inheritance that justifies anything the nobles do against all peasants, but particularly the elves.    Still, as I say, those who truly embrace the faith, probably are quite happy with the status quo.   No one is forcing them to join the Dalish.

 

At the present time we do not know how the Dalish will respond to the revelations about their gods, or even if they know about them if the Inquisitor is not an elf.  If they actually accept the truth that the ancient gods were tyrants who ruled over them as slaves, then I would assume they would in fact reject them.   The Dalish submit to no one and their belief system is based on the idea that they were benign guides and teachers, not cruel overlords.   My own personal argument is that they have survived down to the present era without any gods to intervene on their behalf, so what has changed?  Backing Solas in the vague hope that he will free their gods and the Evanuris will actually be grateful for their support is a very short sighted attitude.   Besides, if the have learned this from an elven Inquisitor, he will have informed them that they will have no such benefits because they will be dead.

 

Still just because their own faith has been undermined, that is no reason why they would wish to embrace that of the Chantry.    Whilst I personally would not want to be prejudiced against a city elf wanting to continue their worship of the Maker, I would be very reluctant to allow the official Chantry anywhere near a new hypothetical homeland.    I don't respect it as a religion, I don't believe it truly reflects what Andraste taught.   It's leaders are happy to play fast and loose with the truth for political reasons and fail to uphold the moral imperatives of their own religion when it comes to calling the nobility to account for their actions.   I also find the constant reciting of the Chant by its clergy intensely annoying, though that is only a minor consideration.  

 

I am quite happy for us to adopt the moral imperatives of the Chant as part of the laws that govern the homeland because actually they are pretty much in line with what the Dalish believe themselves.   So the culture of the new homeland would largely be based on respect and faith in the family and community as found in current Dalish belief but there would be no official religion.    The survival skills that the Dalish have acquired and perfected down the years would, I imagine, come in handy when getting the community established.     

 

What I want for the elves is to be truly free.   Free of the past; free of the false gods, free of the Chantry; free of the corrupt systems of government in Thedas; free to build themselves a better future.    May be a friendly Hope spirit will make this become a reality.

[Steelcan]

Except we know that Drakon did not crush every other form of Andrastianism or the other religions he encountered.  The Avar were not attacked, the Dalish were not attacked, Rivaini cutural practices endured, and other sects like the Disciples of Andraste survived as well.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Except we know that Drakon did not crush every other form of Andrastianism or the other religions he encountered.  The Avar were not attacked, the Dalish were not attacked, Rivaini cutural practices endured, and other sects like the Disciples of Andraste survived as well.

I don't think Drakon got to Rivain, did he?  Good point about the Avvar, though. And the Dalish, of course. 

 

Now my point about the City elves not being particularly devout Andrastrians is that it would be rather odd if they were, considering the religion actually teaches they are inferior to humans, has wiped all record of their heroes from history and has upheld and maintained the idea of the Divine Right of inheritance that justifies anything the nobles do against all peasants, but particularly the elves.    

I've never heard of this bit of lore. What's the source of it?

[Hellion Rex]

Pretty sure there is no actual Divine right of inheritance doctrine in Thedas at all. That's a real world thing. Nobles do as they wish simply because they can, and it has nothing to with Chantry doctrine. Pretty sure there is nothing in the Chant or Andraste's teachings that proscribes such action.

[Xilizhra]

Pretty sure there is no actual Divine right of inheritance doctrine in Thedas at all. That's a real world thing. Nobles do as they wish simply because they can, and it has nothing to with Chantry doctrine. Pretty sure there is nothing in the Chant or Andraste's teachings that proscribes such action.

Codex entry: The Orlesian Empire disagrees.

The aristocracy is different from Ferelden in other ways, as well. The Orlesians' right to rule stems directly from the Maker. There exists neither the concept of rule by merit nor the slightest notion of rebellion. If one is not noble, one aspires to be—or at the least aspires to be in the good graces of a noble, and is ever watching for a way to enter the patronage of those better placed in the Grand Game.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The spread of the Chant of Light didn't only from Drakon.

[In Exile]

I admired and respected the Dalish Elves because they never submit to the Chantry, they look out for each other and love each other as family, and they would fight to the bitter end to protect their people. And I understand why they want to collect their lost history, and culture was taken away from slavery and the Chantry. They have a lot to answer for.

When you say never submit, you mean runaway from them at every opportunity and create their entire way of life to specifically be so beneath the notice of the Chantry that they're ignored as irrelevant? You and I have different ideas about submission.

[In Exile]

City elves can go and live anywhere they please in a human city.
It just doesn't end well for them because they are beaten/killed and their homes burned to the ground.
And, of course, nothing says you can't join a Dalish clan but people aren't usually eager to abandon their homes, carrying what little they can, to head off into the untamed forests to maybe find a Dalish clan that may or may not take them in.

It bothers me that people don't think about the logistics of this point - joining the Dalish en masse. Let's pretend for a moment that the CEs all flee to join a clan. How massive of an influx of refugees could any one clan handle? They're nomads who live off hunting and gathering. The CEs, many of whom would be adults, have no valuable skills in such a society. Even if they all wanted to convert to the Dalish way of life, you'd have a huge influx of an identical cultural block that could push for radical changes the original Dalish don't want. The idea the CEs could just flee - and the Dalish even have the means to help them - is far-fetched?

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Guys, they're shutting down the forums. 

 

Announcement Here: http://blog.bioware....ing-our-forums/

 

Official thread here: https://forum.biowar...r-forums/page-1

 

My thread to try to get people to save the forums here: https://forum.biowar...bioware-forums/

 

 

 

So I'm not off topic: elves. lol Also, how are we to have our arlathvhen if we have no place to arlathvhen? And, yes, I did just make it a verb.

[Walter Black]

@ In Exile

 

Considering MisterJB's numerous statements on Elves in the past, I suspect his point is less "take a look at the actual practicality of this option", and more "no cares about your whining".

 

Given his posts on non humans, spirits, magic, etcetera, one wonders why wonders why JB bothers with a fantasy role playing game at all...

[Gervaise]

The lore about Divine Right was in a codex that first appeared back in DAO at the time the Orlesian peasant refugee is recounting how Chevaliers think they have the right to any peasant woman they choose.   She attracted the unwelcome attention of a Chevalier who was going to rape her until her brother stopped him (by knocking him out with a bottle over the head I seem to recall).   They were then forced to flee to Ferelden to escape his reprisals.

 

"The aristocracy is different from Ferelden in other ways, as well.   The Orlesians' right to rule stems directly from the Maker.  There exists neither the concept of rule by merit, nor the slightest notion of rebellion."

 

I realise now why the Divine was urging Celene to put down the rebellion in Halamshiral by force because it wasn't just challenging her authority but that of the Maker and by extension that of the Chantry as well.   It would also be why the Chevaliers think there is nothing wrong with them using elves as target practice when training their recruits.   They are entitled to do as they please because the Maker gave them that authority.   You will of course find none of this in the actual Chant.

 

World of Thedas also has an entry on the Chevaliers which says "Chevaliers hold absolute power over those of commoner rank.  The brutality of certain members of the chevaliers is infamous, and considering the knighthood is above legal reproach, the lower Orlesian classes fear the knighthood as much as those of higher standing adore it."   This is borne out by the story of the Orlesian peasant girl in DAO and, if you spare him, the story Loghain tells of a Chevalier during the occupation beating to death a poor farmer on a whim.   It is why I find it impossible to respect the Chantry or believe in any of its teachings.   According to them the Maker not only turns a blind eye to all the abuses of the nobility (and likely the Templars as well let us not forget) but in fact he has given them authority to do so.

[Walter Black]

In getting to the heart of the matter, I just have to ask: many people here rant on how Bioware aren't doing Elves "correctly". So in your mind, just what are "proper" Elves?

[Gervaise]

It hardly matters whether or not the Dalish could accommodate a large influx of city elves because it would never arise.   The authorities would never allow the city elves to leave the alienages in such numbers.    The reason they rounded them up in the first place was to prevent the possibility of future uprisings.     Otherwise why didn't they simply leave the elves who surrendered in the Dales under the own leadership?    Those who were not willing to submit to their rule had already fled.   This is what you normally do when you occupy a country.   Instead they removed the elves entirely and gave the land over to their nobility and peasantry.    The walls and gates to the alienages may keep hostile elements out but they also keep the elves in.    Even in Ferelden they needed a special permit to allow the potential marriage partners to travel from the alienage in another town.     In Masked Empire, when being questioned by Gaspard, the elf makes as point of saying that he "had a pass to the merchant district" so is was permissible for him to have left the slums to follow Briala.   City elves in Thedas are not allowed to move around as they please.    If they wish to leave to join the Dalish, they have to sneak out. 

[Gervaise]

I don't believe anyone said they are not doing elves "correctly".   What most of us complain about is when they are not doing the elves consistent with the lore they previously established for them.   So they are not doing their elves correctly.   Of course it is fair enough that it is their world and they can do as they please with it but you do feel a bit aggrieved when you spend out money on their lore books, read them to get thoroughly immersed in the world, plus all the codices that appeared in previous games, and then something is introduced that seems to contradict it.     That's all it is really.

[Steelcan]

well its been fun

[Gervaise]

The spread of the current Chant of Light did only really come from Drakon because the Chant that is in current circulation was the one approved by him.     His chosen Divine, who was previously a general in his army, compiled her interpretation of the Chant of Light, both the written text and the doctrine that is associated with it.    Drakon also had included his prophetic vision that he claimed authorised and encouraged his religious crusade, although strangely enough he apparently rewrote this several times before allowing it to be included in the Chant  

 

In the period following Andraste's death there was no single version of the Chant and much was passed on by oral tradition.  It is said that each clan had its own variety of the cult of Andraste, its own rituals, traditions and versions of Andraste's words.   "Young Drakon unified them by the sword".

 

Whilst Drakon may have left the Dalish alone, either with their permission or through by-passing them by ship, he pressed into Ferelden as well as Nevarra, removing the alternatives to his version of the Chant there as well, in addition to "stamping out any worship of the Old Gods, as well as lingering Alamarri and Ciriane deites."   I should imagine the only reason he didn't get as far as the Avaar was that they were far south in the Frostbacks initially and later he thought his friend Ameridan was dealing with them.   The cult of Andraste at Haven also managed to escape his notice, again through its remoteness.    

 

These initial efforts were actually before he built the Grand Cathedral, which he did when turned his attention north where he met heavier resistance and he decided it was because the Maker was questioning his devotion, so sought additional ways to glorify his god.    There the "one true song of Andraste shall forever be heard".   After installing his Divine, no doubt he would have resumed his crusade but fortunately for many, including probably the Dalish, his attention was taken by the 2nd Blight.

 

A sceptic would say that the 2nd Blight was an indication that the Maker didn't approve of his actions, assuming of course that you think the Maker cared to do anything at all.  Drakon of course was convinced that he was especially favoured in that direction, just like Andraste. 

[MisterJB]

@ In Exile

 

Considering MisterJB's numerous statements on Elves in the past, I suspect his point is less "take a look at the actual practicality of this option", and more "no cares about your whining".

 

Given his posts on non humans, spirits, magic, etcetera, one wonders why wonders why JB bothers with a fantasy role playing game at all...

And yet all of your suspicions somehow don't make me wrong in regards to the practicality (or rather the lack of) of city elves joining the Dalish.

 

Well, allow me to enlighten you. Let's see, Fantasy is one of my favourite genres, period. However, one of the things that always bothered me, for instance, was how some universes would simply not really take into account how it would actually work if it existed.

Magic is a good example of this. I've seen many fantasy universes where it is treated simply as a skill no different from being a blacksmith and didn't even bother to ask what would really happen if people could control minds.

 

Dragon Age does and I love it for it and thus from this love, a concern for the non existent people of Thedas grew in me and thus, I wish to see them protected which includes from magic.

Of course, magic enriches the setting exactly because it adds this conflict.
 

[Walter Black]

And yet all of your suspicions somehow don't make me wrong in regards to the practicality (or rather the lack of) of city elves joining the Dalish.

 

I actually agree with you on this particular point. It's just that for every time you shoot down Elves being able to genuinely improve in Thedas, I can't recall you ever giving ways that they could. For me personally, while the trope of downtrodden Elves in Dragon Age was a great contrast to the more popular Mary Sue variety in modern genre fiction, I feel it has become a creative dead end. Been there, done that.

 

So how would you improve the story of Elves in Dragon Age? I'm not asking that they be made superior or equal to human civilization, even I know such a radical shift would betray themes and internal consistancy of the series thus far. Just something, anything to make the story progress beyond another rerun of "Thedas takes a dump on the Elves". Oh, and unlike some, I don't need the tale of Elves rising to happy, just different.

 

To answer my own question, my personal take on possible Elven storylines are here: https://forum.biowar...spin-off-games/. It's not perfect by any means, but it's something.

 

Well, allow me to enlighten you. Let's see, Fantasy is one of my favourite genres, period. However, one of the things that always bothered me, for instance, was how some universes would simply not really take into account how it would actually work if it existed.

Magic is a good example of this. I've seen many fantasy universes where it is treated simply as a skill no different from being a blacksmith and didn't even bother to ask what would really happen if people could control minds.

 

Dragon Age does and I love it for it and thus from this love, a concern for the non existent people of Thedas grew in me and thus, I wish to see them protected which includes from magic.

Of course, magic enriches the setting exactly because it adds this conflict.
 

So out of curiosity, do you still have issues with settings where magic is available to everyone, rather than being a genetic recessive?

[Qun00]

well its been fun

We shall go into uthenera.

[MisterJB]

I actually agree with you on this particular point. It's just that for every time you shoot down Elves being able to genuinely improve in Thedas, I can't recall you ever giving ways that they could. For me personally, while the trope of downtrodden Elves in Dragon Age was a great contrast to the more popular Mary Sue variety in modern genre fiction, I feel it has become a creative dead end. Been there, done that.

 

So how would you improve the story of Elves in Dragon Age? I'm not asking that they be made superior or equal to human civilization, even I know such a radical shift would betray themes and internal consistancy of the series thus far. Just something, anything to make the story progress beyond another rerun of "Thedas takes a dump on the Elves". Oh, and unlike some, I don't need the tale of Elves rising to happy, just different.

 

To answer my own question, my personal take on possible Elven storylines are here: https://forum.biowar...spin-off-games/. It's not perfect by any means, but it's something.

 

So out of curiosity, do you still have issues with settings where magic is available to everyone, rather than being a genetic recessive?

Were I writing the story, I would give the elves an actual homeland and have it be populated by elves from across all nations in the continent. And then the game is about watching Dalish, Andrastian, Ferelden, Orlesian, Tevinter, etc elves just trying to coexist within their nation and keep it.

 

 

I don't have issues with magic being something available to everyone. I have issues with stories that treat it like it's no big deal whereas, in real life, it would change everything from a personal, cultural, economical, religious standpoint,

[Gervaise]

I like the ideas for giving the elves a homeland and then you having to deal with the problems that would arise with the various factions in contention.   That would certainly be preferable to what has happened up to now, for example with DAO, where you were given a boon, told in the epilogue there were potential problems and then in the next game informed it didn't work, having never been given the opportunity to at least try and make a success of things.   It wouldn't work as a separate game because of the lack of interest among the majority of players.   However, integrating it into a main plotline would be a possibility, certainly when it comes to undermining both the activities of Solas and the Qunari.  Then you would be coming at the problems either as a person with an actual stake in it, as a Dalish or City elf, or as an interested outsider, who is involving themselves out of pure self interest or a genuine wish for it to succeed.    There wouldn't be a perfect happy outcome because there never is with such things and it could even fail entirely if you made bad choices (or deliberately wanted to undermine it) but at least we would have been given a shot and there would equally be the possibility of ending up with something permanent in the setting.     I would be happy if we were offered this as a plotline, not necessarily the main one but certainly running in parallel.  

 

As for a potential location, well you could have Tevinter offering to let the elves re-populate Arlathan Forest provided they agree to remain a nominal part of the Imperium as a sort of client state, paying taxes and the like, because they would provide a useful buffer against the Qun on that side of the country.   If the Qunari are really striking against mainland Tevinter in force, then then their armies are going to be spread pretty thin, particularly if the Qunari have managed to organise slave rebellions to coincide with their assault.     So giving concessions in return for guaranteed support against the Qun, could have potential.  There would also be a nice irony if it were actually Tevinter who were the ones to give the elves that opportunity and if the histories are to be believed (I never know what to believe in this setting), Tevinter initially made friendly overtures to the old settlement there but their envoys repeatedly ended up dead, likely because the elves were acting pretty much like the sentinels in the Arbor Wilds, so in the end they got fed up with people constantly getting killed and did something about it.    It is not as though Tevinter aren't capable of working with other races, look at the dwarves, so long as it benefits them in some way.   Undermining the Qunari in eastern Tevinter would seem to qualify.

[Solas]

popping in to pass on the memo in case its of any relevance to anyone (Solas/elf overlap) 

 

 The Solas Thread has officially moved to Cyonan's BSN - Solas Thread 2 - Electric Boogaloo.

[LobselVith8]

I don't believe anyone said they are not doing elves "correctly".   What most of us complain about is when they are not doing the elves consistent with the lore they previously established for them.   So they are not doing their elves correctly.   Of course it is fair enough that it is their world and they can do as they please with it but you do feel a bit aggrieved when you spend out money on their lore books, read them to get thoroughly immersed in the world, plus all the codices that appeared in previous games, and then something is introduced that seems to contradict it.     That's all it is really.

 

Well, since BSN is closing down, let me just say thank you. I've enjoyed your posts, Gervaise.