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[Gervaise]

I think the whole business with the Evanuris is meant to make us reflect on what in fact makes a god.   The Forgotten One, Gelduran's comments are interesting: "There are no gods, only the subject and the object, the acted and the acted upon.  Those with the will to earn dominance over others gain the title not by nature but by deeds.   I am Gelduran and I refuse those who would exert their will upon me."

 

So essentially the Evanuris are gods because their followers have allowed them to rise from generals to kings to gods by exerting their will over them.   The more their followers bent to their will and allowed them dominance, the greater their power became.   It was something of a self fulfilling prophesy syndrome.    They are not gods to those who do not allow them to be, such as the Forgotten Ones and Solas.   Probably why he is remembered as having kinship with the Forgotten Ones.    Later some elves started to worship the Forgotten Ones (and may still do so in the Tirashan) and this gave them an aura of divinity as well.     However, it does seem as though he recognised he could not move against the Creators until such time as "their Pride will consume them", when he would "claim power of my own" having previously been forgotten.   

 

This is why I think that the Forgotten Ones, or at least Gelduran, could be a good candidate for one of the old gods, likely Dumat, and then under two different names plays one group, the humans, off against the other, the elves.    So he brings about the downfall of the elves who still revere the Creators, by using the humans, and then encourages the worship of the elves who want to avenge themselves against the humans.    Then he shuts up totally and leaves everyone to stew or alternatively lures the humans to their doom in the corrupted heavenly city.    The dragon that the Grey Wardens killed was just his twin soul half but he's still lurking out there somewhere, probably looking forward to when Solas drops the Veil again.   The Dalish believe the Forgotten Ones were gods of terror, malice, spite and pestilence, which pretty much sums up the sort of god who would raise the followers to power, only to abandon them, encourage them even, to a horrible fate.   There is also the fact that I believe the reason Solas feels he has no choice but to destroy the current world is that it is so infected with the Blight it cannot be saved, except by an enormous influx of magic from the Fade.  

 

On a unrelated topic, in answer to the question posed up above about Ghilan'nan, it is possible that the reason the Dalish so identify with her is that she wasn't originally a god but one of the People who earned it and the Creator's favour.   Since part of their belief system is that they have to earn back their gods through reacquiring their knowledge of what it is to be elves, may be Ghilan'nan is something of an inspiration to them.   Plus of course they rely so heavily on their halla in everyday life and Ghilan'nan is responsible for that aspect of their life, so naturally they would want to honour her.   It may even stem back to the time of the Long Walk.   Elves embarking on that may have invoked Ghilan'nan to guide them safely to their new homeland.   Those who made it, then revered her for that fact alone.   After all, when recounting the Long Walk, the elders talk of the gods rewarding those who did not give up on the journey for their perseverance, which I always thought odd considering they also teach that the gods can no longer interact with them or help them, but then the Andrastrians have a similar illogical stance when they constantly invoke the Maker, so that is faith for you.

[The Ascendant]

I think it's interesting that anyone could become a God if they have the power to back up their claim.

[veeia]

I like reading your posts, Gervaise. You have very interesting thoughts backed up by a good understanding of the lore. Elven lore is not my area of specialty, even though I find it interesting, so I appreciate it when you share.

[raging_monkey]

I think it's interesting that anyone could become a God if they have the power to back up their claim.

happens a lot in dnd and other fantasy series

[raging_monkey]

I like reading your posts, Gervaise. You have very interesting thoughts backed up by a good understanding of the lore. Elven lore is not my area of specialty, even though I find it interesting, so I appreciate it when you share.

elven lore is imo the best lots of exploration

[Lulupab]

We have certainly come a long way, more than a year ago some people thought the whole idea of Elves being the first on Thedas and having immense magic and very long life was a myth.

[Qun00]

I do like the fact that what little knowledge Thedas possesses of elven lore comes from the Dalish.

Morrigan thought it was preposterous that there was a Dread Wolf statue in the Temple of Mythal.

And during Trespasser's ending, Solas had to mention the Dalish theory that the elves began aging due to the contact with humans because that is the official version right now.

Lastly, we had Oghren saying "I've always thought all elves lived with the birds and the flowers". And I believe there are a few other instances where a character only uses the word " elves" when describing strictly Dalish customs.

To the average man, the Dalish are the true elves.

[veeia]

It's definitely a very meaty part of the games right now. I didn't really pay close attention to it befor DA:I and now I have a much bigger appreciation for it.

I'm also interested in what happens if Solas's plan doesn't come to fruition but the Dalish do become more informed about their history and how many of their core beliefs aren't supported by it. Would they refuse to acknowledge it, reform, create something new, convert, a mixture of all the above that results in a further splintering? if only the Keepers were informed, would they try to repress the knowledge, or pass it on? I don't know! Maybe that won't happen in the game, but it's interesting to think about. I don't remember much about the dialogue options I got when I played as Lavellan at the Well and haven't done one in Trespasser yet. I'll be running another Lav to the end soon though.

Question I guess: were you guys satisfied with the way your character got to react to all that happened at the Well of Sorrows/Trespasser?

[Lulupab]

I do like the fact that what little knowledge Thedas possesses of elven lore comes from the Dalish.

Morrigan thought it was preposterous that there was a Dread Wolf statue in the Temple of Mythal.

And during Trespasser's ending, Solas had to mention the Dalish theory that the elves began aging due to the contact with humans because that is the official version right now.

Lastly, we had Oghren saying "I've always thought all elves lived with the birds and the flowers". And I believe there are a few other instances where a character only uses the word " elves" when describing strictly Dalish customs.

To the average man, the Dalish are the true elves.

 

Its also revealed that "City Elves" were not servants and 2nd class citizens for a while after Andraste's rebellion against Tevinter, not all Elves went back to Dales, some remained and continued Andraste/Shartan legacy. It happened after fall of Dales. Now these city elves, if continued to exist, could rival the Dalish. But current city elves are only technically elves, nothing more. They are poor humans who are slim and have pointy ears.

 

In my first playthrough I told Sera to GTFO from Inquisition after her denial following the quest what pride had wrought. Later when I learnt more about her, I was more lenient. She was just stupid, quite literally.

[Xilizhra]

Its also revealed that "City Elves" were not servants and 2nd class citizens for a while after Andraste's rebellion against Tevinter, not all Elves went back to Dales, some remained and continued Andraste/Shartan legacy. It happened after fall of Dales. Now these city elves, if continued to exist, could rival the Dalish. But current city elves are only technically elves, nothing more. They are poor humans who are slim and have pointy ears.

 

In my first playthrough I told Sera to GTFO from Inquisition after her denial following the quest what pride had wrought. Later when I learnt more about her, I was more lenient. She was just stupid, quite literally.

Elves are elves. The city elves are not less than the Dalish, just in possession of a different culture, and more frequently oppressed. Elfhood is not defined by how close you remain to garbled memories of ancient tyrants.

[Lulupab]

Elves are elves. The city elves are not less than the Dalish, just in possession of a different culture, and more frequently oppressed. Elfhood is not defined by how close you remain to garbled memories of ancient tyrants.

 

I know, but I'm confident half or so of them will not aid the other Elves if they decide to fight, and that is what bothering me.

[Xilizhra]

I know, but I'm confident half or so of them will not aid the other Elves if they decide to fight, and that is what bothering me.

No one should be fighting. No one needs to be fighting. Solas is rushing into things prematurely due to his guilt complex.

[Lulupab]

No one should be fighting. No one needs to be fighting. Solas is rushing into things prematurely due to his guilt complex.

 

Even if there is no fighting they still wouldn't aid the other Elves in getting a home. Because they have become content to live under human rule.

 

See I like Briala, a lot. Those kind of city Elves are "elf enough" in my book. 

[veeia]

I don't know if content to live under human rule is the right way to describe it. Elves who wouldn't choose to leave and fight would probably more likely be doing that because they'd view it as venture doomed to failure (a viewpoint that would probably be compounded by their current circumstances) or that their odds for survival in a known (and thus navigable) oppressive climate were higher than in a war with an uncertain outcome. Content with their situation, probably not, but perceive it as more stable/secure and thus a better survival move, probably. Which is understandable and a direct effect of them being elves, because it's their elfness that has put them in that rock and a hard place.

[Qun00]

No one should be fighting. No one needs to be fighting. Solas is rushing into things prematurely due to his guilt complex.

Considering that Solas is to blame for almost everything bad that ever happened to elves, it seems like the right amount of guilt.

[jlb524]

I know, but I'm confident half or so of them will not aid the other Elves if they decide to fight, and that is what bothering me.

 

If by fighting you mean join up with Solas then I'd expect the City Elves more likely to do so than the Dalish.   The City Elves are more directly oppressed by humans and they don't fear and despise Fen'harel as the Dalish do in their culture.

[Hellion Rex]

What's really got me curious is if Solas truly intends to let the modern elves survive the coming destruction, when he takes down the Veil. Will they get a seat at the table? Or are they merely pawns to resurrect the world Solas wants?

[Qun00]

Mere pawns, following him like moths to the flame.

Solas killed Felassan for thinking that modern people are worth saving. That mindset hasn't changed much.

[Hellion Rex]

Mere pawns, following him like moths to the flame.

Solas killed Felassan for thinking that modern people are worth saving. That mindset hasn't changed much.

Quite. Was pretty cold and ruthless. I guess he didn't want to be told that Briala reminded Felassan of himself.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Magic has the power to shape reality. Cole himself said "worship makes you more". My own theory is that the Evanuris were indeed elves with strong magic, but they drew even more power from the collective belief in their divinity. I would say this is a strong theory because of how the world was mixed with the world of dreams back then. If enough people with magic (the elves as well as their slaves) believed in the godliness and divinity of their leaders, would that not shape the reality that was the Evanuris?

 

So the Tinkerbell effect ? If you don't believe in something, it loses its power, or in the Evanuris' case, it loses some of their power.
 

[Hellion Rex]

So the Tinkerbell effect ? If you don't believe in something, it loses its power, or in the Evanuris' case, it loses some of their power.

By taking away and freeing their slaves, perhaps the Evanuris lost power because less believed in their lies.

[Dai Grepher]

After all, when recounting the Long Walk, the elders talk of the gods rewarding those who did not give up on the journey for their perseverance, which I always thought odd considering they also teach that the gods can no longer interact with them or help them, but then the Andrastrians have a similar illogical stance when they constantly invoke the Maker, so that is faith for you.

But Andrastians believe that Andraste urges the Maker to turn back to his children, and they also believe that he may turn his gaze on those who do righteous things. They also believe that the Maker knows people's sins. So the belief that he turned away probably just means he doesn't bother helping mankind anymore, but even in this some Andrastians believe he intercedes to gives tests or to help where it is most needed.

The main belief however is that the Maker will not return to rule over his people and guide them directly until the Chant is sung from all corners of the world.

We have certainly come a long way, more than a year ago some people thought the whole idea of Elves being the first on Thedas and having immense magic and very long life was a myth.

I don't know of anyone who thought that, especially after meeting Zathrian in Origins. He proved it was possible. It's just that I think most understood it would have to be a magical connection like the one Zathrian had, rather than some genetic property. Solas says immortality was simply part of being elvhen. But in Trespasser he admits that it was the connection to the Fade that made elves what they were.

Question I guess: were you guys satisfied with the way your character got to react to all that happened at the Well of Sorrows/Trespasser?

No. You only get to use the Well to get past the spirit guardians. You can't use it to question Solas or verify anything he says. What a rip-off.

Considering that Solas is to blame for almost everything bad that ever happened to elves, it seems like the right amount of guilt.

How so? All he allegedly did was sever their connection to the Fade, thus sparing them a worse fate.

What's really got me curious is if Solas truly intends to let the modern elves survive the coming destruction, when he takes down the Veil. Will they get a seat at the table? Or are they merely pawns to resurrect the world Solas wants?

He flat out tells a Levellan that even the Dalish elves won't survive the raw chaos. The only elves who will survive (in Solas' estimation) are the original elvhen who lived during the times of Elvhenan.

Solas killed Felassan for thinking that modern people are worth saving. That mindset hasn't changed much.

Or at all. Or it was reinforced.

By taking away and freeing their slaves, perhaps the Evanuris lost power because less believed in their lies.

I don't think they lost power. They simply didn't gain as much after that, which would have been enough to anger them. Think of it in terms of an arms race. If someone is destroying your resources, it makes you less able to defend your interests in the war.

However, Solas was able to regain much of his own power even though he doesn't have worshipers. He was also able to fight the evanuris without worshipers, though his tactics likely relied on cunning tricks and traps rather than direct confrontation.

But we observe instances of spirits empowering the Inquisitor. I think it can happen in Here Lies the Abyss, and it can also happen in Jaws of Hakkon when you save that girl from the wyvern and she includes you in her prayers.

You can also "steal" power from Envy if you invade certain parts of the dream world and discover its dogmas.

In fact, Gurd Haroffson and his mages were performing a ritual and chants to draw Hakkon's power into him. The result was to power him up into a revenant.

So the evanuris were likely receiving small attribute donations from their various worshipers. But losing them didn't take power away, it just reduced the flow of attribute buffs they received.

[The Ascendant]

Is it just me or does Solas seem just as petulant as Corypheus. Boohoo the world isn't what I remember it was and everything I care about has changed. Should I try and adapt or will I throw a temper tantrum and wipe the slate clean because if I can't have it my way then I won't have any way at all. Jerk.

[Lulupab]

I read someone else's post and it made sense, the veil is literally Solas' property.

[Lulupab]

I don't know of anyone who thought that, especially after meeting Zathrian in Origins. He proved it was possible. It's just that I think most understood it would have to be a magical connection like the one Zathrian had, rather than some genetic property. Solas says immortality was simply part of being elvhen. But in Trespasser he admits that it was the connection to the Fade that made elves what they were.

Well as I said in another thread, the world of Thedas was born without the veil. So if Elves were immortal in that state of the world, then they are simply immortal. The world with the veil is a "fake" state.