1599 réponses à ce sujet

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Is it just me or does Solas seem just as petulant as Corypheus. Boohoo the world isn't what I remember it was and everything I care about has changed. Should I try and adapt or will I throw a temper tantrum and wipe the slate clean because if I can't have it my way then I won't have any way at all. Jerk.

Its not just you who thinks like that, but I think you're wrong.

 

I don't know of anyone who thought that, especially after meeting Zathrian in Origins. He proved it was possible. It's just that I think most understood it would have to be a magical connection like the one Zathrian had, rather than some genetic property. Solas says immortality was simply part of being elvhen. But in Trespasser he admits that it was the connection to the Fade that made elves what they were.

You seem to be implying that Solas is lying or fudging when he says immortality was simply part of being elven. He's not. Yes it was part of being elven b/c they had a certain type of connection to the Fade. The immortality is the "what" here, the fade connection is the "how". The two claims don't conflict at all.

[The Ascendant]

Just because he created the modern world, it doesn't give him the right to destroy it. While he wasted the millennia dreaming, watching and stagnating, the world moved on, evolved and adapted. 

[Lulupab]

Just because he created the modern world, it doesn't give him the right to destroy it. While he wasted the millennia dreaming, watching and stagnating, the world moved on, evolved and adapted. 

 

Oh it absolutely gives him the right, but it also gives the modern world right to fight back.

 

The "world" has not moved on, according to Solas it has lost the harmony it used to have. Granted almost all lore right now is "according Solas" so take it with grain of salt if you will. Anyway the people have moved on, not the world. And when I said it gives him the right, I mean it gives him the right to remove the veil. If the current people are as adaptive as you say, they will adapt again.

[veeia]

Oh it absolutely gives him the right, but it also gives the modern world right to fight back.

 

I don't think it gives him the right at all, lmao. His serious flaw is a mixture of hubris and idealism. When you ask him what he'll do about the old elven gods coming back, he says he "has a plan." But none of his plans have worked so far the way he's planned, and he still persists in believing that he can do something to make the world right and in its best possible state and that he can do it alone. While his first act may have been a noble act of desperation since he seems to indicate that the Evanuris would have destroyed the world if were not for intervention (although again, you have to trust him that it's true and that there were no other alternatives), his actions afterwards have been more selfish.  He displays outstanding hypocrisy when he argues time and time again for self-determination and freedom, but then chooses to exercise the ultimate control over the world twice by fundamentally altering the fabric of reality via a unilateral decision he makes by himself. I get his rationale, because he thinks he is trying to free people and restore the world, but he's not letting them decide what freedom actually means and he's only allowing that his particular idea of what a balanced world means is correct.

[Hellion Rex]

I agree, veeia.

To me, it's no longer his world. His world died off ages ago. He has no right whatsoever to alter this world so irrevocably. It sucks what happened to him, but tough. All sympathy I had went out the window when he decided to commit genocide.

[veeia]

Yup. It's like accidentally killing someone and then killing someone you don't like as much to try to bring that person back. You can do it, but you can't argue that's morally right. It doesn't fix the problem, it's just another attempt to get what you want at the expense of soemone else. Solas seems to try to compensate for that by embracing the guilt or sadness he feels over it, as if that transfers the cost of his actions onto him instead of confronting the reality of the cost in a non-ego driven way. He wants to fix his first mistake so much that he's not really learning from it.

 

He's a great character. I love him and I actually do have a lot of sympathy for him which is why he'll make a good antagonist because no matter how much his failings, pain, unique experience etc are understandable and sad, his actions are unacceptable.

[The Ascendant]

Heroes are only as great as their villains. 

[Lulupab]

I don't think it gives him the right at all, lmao. His serious flaw is a mixture of hubris and idealism. When you ask him what he'll do about the old elven gods coming back, he says he "has a plan." But none of his plans have worked so far the way he's planned, and he still persists in believing that he can do something to make the world right and in its best possible state and that he can do it alone. While his first act may have been a noble act of desperation since he seems to indicate that the Evanuris would have destroyed the world if were not for intervention (although again, you have to trust him that it's true and that there were no other alternatives), his actions afterwards have been more selfish.  He displays outstanding hypocrisy when he argues time and time again for self-determination and freedom, but then chooses to exercise the ultimate control over the world twice by fundamentally altering the fabric of reality via a unilateral decision he makes by himself. I get his rationale, because he thinks he is trying to free people and restore the world, but he's not letting them decide what freedom actually means and he's only allowing that his particular idea of what a balanced world means is correct.

 

But you are kinda talking about morals here, which was not my point at all. He has the right to lift the veil because he simply created it in the first place. It took a great deal of magic, maybe current inhabitants of Thedas can create their own veil, then Solas would not have the right anymore. You are judging the situation subjectively because it will cause death. I share this sentiment, but objectively speaking Solas has the right to lift the veil.

[Lulupab]

I also like to discuss another issue. All three protagonist so far owe their lives to an Elven "god". Flemeth saved the warden and Hawke, Solas saved Inquisitor by not allowing the mark to kill them. He also saved the Inquisition itself by leading it to Skyhold.

 

What if they have been doing this for a long time? Did the maker actually guide Andraste for example? I mean it could have been anyone pretending to be the maker, speaking to her mind and granting her the abilities she used in defeating Tevinter. I wouldn't be surprised if the Elven gods have been pulling the strings from the shadows for a long time.

[Reznore57]

But you are kinda talking about morals here, which was not my point at all. He has the right to lift the veil because he simply created it in the first place. It took a great deal of magic, maybe current inhabitants of Thedas can create their own veil, then Solas would not have the right anymore. You are judging the situation subjectively because it will cause death. I share this sentiment, but objectively speaking Solas has the right to lift the veil.

 

It's not about rights.

It's all about having the power to.

Usually a society/ community defines what rights you have and what rights you don't have.

If you're living all alone in a island , no one cares what the hell you're doing.

 

Anyway Solas is not living in an island in a middle of nowhere and his actions are going to have consequences on people around him.

Current societies populating Thedas.

I'd say most of those societies would deny Solas his right to change the current world.

But of course this , again , isn't about right .

It's all about his power to do it , and the power of current Thedas to stop him or not.

[The Ascendant]

Flemeth most likely directed Calenhad to that Dragon. Yavanna or her predecessor gave Xenon his eternal life, but not eternal youth. She may have had something to do with the death of Queen Madrigal of Antiva.

[Lulupab]

It's not about rights.

It's all about having the power to.

Usually a society/ community defines what rights you have and what rights you don't have.

If you're living all alone in a island , no one cares what the hell you're doing.

 

Anyway Solas is not living in an island in a middle of nowhere and his actions are going to have consequences on people around him.

Current societies populating Thedas.

I'd say most of those societies would deny Solas his right to change the current world.

But of course this , again , isn't about right .

It's all about his power to do it , and the power of current Thedas to stop him or not.

 

Its just wordplay at this point, but yes objectively speaking it translates into power. If the current inhabitants of Thedas are meant to be the dominant ones, they will either manage to stay that way in a world without the veil or defeat Solas and make their own veil. 

[veeia]

But you are kinda talking about morals here, which was not my point at all. He has the right to lift the veil because he simply created it in the first place. It took a great deal of magic, maybe current inhabitants of Thedas can create their own veil, then Solas would not have the right anymore. You are judging the situation subjectively because it will cause death. I share this sentiment, but objectively speaking Solas has the right to lift the veil.

 

Hrm, I see, I guess rights isn't the most precise word. When you talk about the right to do something, I think of either legal rights or moral rights and there I went with moral.

 

I think I now see what you're saying, but I'm not sure in this case you can divide the subjective and the objective. I think that might be Solas's failing, because he tries to see the macro and the micro as separate, when the maco is made up of the micro. Solas created the Veil, yes, but I don't think that assigns him ownership over it. It almost sounds like you're assigning him kind of a global "legal" right (I guess like a property right, to use our language, although it's not perfect because we are talking about something more metaphysical) to the Veil, is that correct?

[Hellion Rex]

I also like to discuss another issue. All three protagonist so far owe their lives to an Elven "god". Flemeth saved the warden and Hawke, Solas saved Inquisitor by not allowing the mark to kill them. He also saved the Inquisition itself by leading it to Skyhold.

What if they have been doing this for a long time? Did the maker actually guide Andraste for example? I mean it could have been anyone pretending to be the maker, speaking to her mind and granting her the abilities she used in defeating Tevinter. I wouldn't be surprised if the Elven gods have been pulling the strings from the shadows for a long time.

I don't think the elven gods had anything to do with her. I think there is something else there altogether.

That said, Flemeth/Mythal has been working throughout the years without a doubt. I do think that there is some other antagonist out there, one beyond Solas, that she has been working against for ages. I think she's been playing what amounts to a chess game against this other entity, placing people in the right place throughout history - Maric, Morrigan, Marethari, Alistair, the Warden, Hawke, and the Inquisitor (if they drank of the Well). She's been planning behind the scenes for ages.

Edit: Calenhad, too. Perhaps even the death of the Antivan Queen.

[veeia]

I also like to discuss another issue. All three protagonist so far owe their lives to an Elven "god". Flemeth saved the warden and Hawke, Solas saved Inquisitor by not allowing the mark to kill them. He also saved the Inquisition itself by leading it to Skyhold.

 

What if they have been doing this for a long time? Did the maker actually guide Andraste for example? I mean it could have been anyone pretending to be the maker, speaking to her mind and granting her the abilities she used in defeating Tevinter. I wouldn't be surprised if the Elven gods have been pulling the strings from the shadows for a long time.

 

This is an interesting topic.

 

Personally I think it would be a disservice to the diversity of the world and its history for elven gods to be behind everything major like that, especially if their manipulations are in service to a larger plan that is playing out successfully.  Perhaps it's just a bit too fatalistic to me.  So theories that kind of encompass/attribute all of the beliefs/events of the world into an inter-elven pantheon conflict or machinations don't seem as likely to me, although I'm willing to admit that's informed by that bias. I do think it's possible that they were involved and influential in many of those events, even if they weren't the prime driving force in how they turned out.

 

So while I wouldn't nec think that an elven god was what Andraste regarded as the Maker, I do think its highly possible they were involved in there somehow. To what extent and to what end, I have no idea! If the elven gods wanted to tear down the Veil to free themselves, wouldn't Tevinter offer a better opportunity there?

[AresKeith]

I don't think the elven gods had anything to do with her. I think there is something else there altogether.

That said, Flemeth/Mythal has been working throughout the years without a doubt. I do think that there is some other antagonist out there, one beyond Solas, that she has been working against for ages. I think she's been playing what amounts to a chess game against this other entity, placing people in the right place throughout history - Maric, Morrigan, Marethari, Alistair, the Warden, Hawke, and the Inquisitor (if they drank of the Well). She's been planning behind the scenes for ages.

Edit: Calenhad, too. Perhaps even the death of the Antivan Queen.

 

Is it wrong to hope that the Formless One is looking at a bigger role in the future? Or maybe there's a Forgotten One still loose 

[Shechinah]

Is it wrong to hope that the Formless One is looking at a bigger role in the future? Or maybe there's a Forgotten One still loose 

 

The Formless One is one of the Forbidden Ones and not one of the Forgotten Ones or are you wondering if it is possible a Forgotten One is still around?

 

My personal theory is that the Forgotten Ones are the Old Gods since according to Dalish mythology, they were locked away from the world in the abyss while the Creators were locked away from the world in the heavens. If heaven is beyond the Veil then the abyss may be below the ground. The Old Gods also have the appearance of dragons which is a shape that was apparently worn only by the "gods".  
 

[Andromelek]

I also like to discuss another issue. All three protagonist so far owe their lives to an Elven "god". Flemeth saved the warden and Hawke, Solas saved Inquisitor by not allowing the mark to kill them. He also saved the Inquisition itself by leading it to Skyhold.
 
What if they have been doing this for a long time? Did the maker actually guide Andraste for example? I mean it could have been anyone pretending to be the maker, speaking to her mind and granting her the abilities she used in defeating Tevinter. I wouldn't be surprised if the Elven gods have been pulling the strings from the shadows for a long time.

I think that could been also a pretender the one who lead the Magisters to the Black City, after all they only heard a voice but didn't know the actual Old God to assure it was his/hers.

[Dai Grepher]

I read someone else's post and it made sense, the veil is literally Solas' property.

Or so he claims. I think it's incredibly premature at this point to assume that he did indeed create the Veil. More likely he discovered the Veil and learned how to manipulate it, thus cutting off all parts of the world where the Veil was not present.
 

Well as I said in another thread, the world of Thedas was born without the veil. So if Elves were immortal in that state of the world, then they are simply immortal. The world with the veil is a "fake" state.

That's an assumption. However, even if true, the fact remains that the elvhen need a strong connection to the Fade in order to maintain agelessness. So that means it is not genetic, or at least not completely. It's also possible that humans would be able to tap into that same agelessness if they knew how to, like Avernus tapping into the taint to prolong his life.
 

You seem to be implying that Solas is lying or fudging when he says immortality was simply part of being elven.

I'm not implying anything about his credibility. I am merely presenting both of his statements. In Skyhold he said it was simply part of being elven. During Trespasser he said that their connection to the Fade is what allowed their agelessness. So it wasn't part of being elven, or at least not entirely. Strong connection to the Fade was also required. The Veil severed that connection and caused them to begin aging.
 

He's not. Yes it was part of being elven b/c they had a certain type of connection to the Fade.

Which means the Fade did play a role. Magic was involved. So he may not have been lying, but he was omitting relevant details.
 

The immortality is the "what" here, the fade connection is the "how". The two claims don't conflict at all.

The conversation asked if magic is what gave them their immortality. Solas says no. So he could be speaking truly in the sense that a magic spell is not what gave them immortality. However, it was their connection to the Fade, a magical dimension, that allowed it. He could also be truthful in that this connection was due to the inherent ability of elves. So in reality, both answers are right. It was because of their inborn trait of being elven, but it was also because of their strong connection with the Fade. It wasn't a magical spell.
 

I also like to discuss another issue. All three protagonist so far owe their lives to an Elven "god". Flemeth saved the warden and Hawke, Solas saved Inquisitor by not allowing the mark to kill them.

That's an assumption, and wrong in the Herald's case. We don't know what happened after the Warden passed out, and Hawke's prologue is a retelling of Varric's. In the Herald's case, firstly, Solas is not an elven "god". Secondly, Solas is the one who put the Herald in danger in the first place, and he is not the one who allowed him to survive the blast. That was likely credited to the Fade spirit impersonating Justinia. Solas then prevented the mark from killing the Herald, but the reason was as much for his own benefit as it was the Herald's. Then he destroyed the mark and the Inquisitor's lower arm along with it, but this was merely Solas preventing his own action from killing the Inquisitor, not really saving the Inquisitor's life. So I don't think any of the protagonists owe their lives to Flemeth or Solas.
 

He also saved the Inquisition itself by leading it to Skyhold.

That doesn't mean anything at all. If they hadn't found Skyhold they simply would have found some other place to set up shop, like the villa in the Hinterlands, or Emprise du Lion, or even the Blades of Hessarian camp on the Storm Coast.
 

What if they have been doing this for a long time? Did the maker actually guide Andraste for example? I mean it could have been anyone pretending to be the maker, speaking to her mind and granting her the abilities she used in defeating Tevinter. I wouldn't be surprised if the Elven gods have been pulling the strings from the shadows for a long time.

Solas was asleep for millennia, Mythal didn't start getting involved until Flemeth, which was during the Towers Age.

The sealed off room you can go to in the Crossroads (with the two revenants) has a book that might imply that whoever wrote it conversed with some powerful entity on the other side of the eluvian. Maybe this was one of the evanuris, or maybe Solas.

Spoiler

Codex entry: Moldy Journal

Mold and rot have eaten most of the pages of these books. The remaining vellum i covered in spiky handwriting with spelling that is either archaic, wildly idiosyncratic, or both:

...saw yht cross from the Volca, that which draggeth souls down to yhts larder in the brinedark. Hys beast preyth on humblewits and goldsworn even & the tower's keeper declares I will rest here if yht would ease me. The elvhen, which pulled me grip-up from my end, kends he is last of his kynde. I made it known elvhen live south-like, but he says yht would not be as yht was & I said that's evertrue & he laughed lark-like. Come dark he showed me a mirror deep strange, an "eluvian" sworne to beene in his family for...

[veeia]

I think there's enough evidence to support the idea that Flemeth saved the Warden and Hawke, especially the Warden. But with Hawke I don't see any reason to doubt Varric's narrative, unless you think he (or Hawke) has some motivation to lie. At this point, I"m fine with accepting that.

 

With Solas, you're drawing a distinction between saving someone for their own gain and saving someone for purely altruistic reasons. Sure, it's Solas's fault and sure he has his own agenda, but it is true that he saved the Inquisitor.

 

I don't think it's an assumption to state that the ancient elves have interfered with all three protagonists by rescuing them from a life threatening danger that likely would have kept them from progressing in their goals.

 

I'm curious why you're arguing that. Is it because you think that Lulupab is attributing too much to the ancient elves in that "saving" implies more altruist motives than you want to assign them and that there is a chance that the protagonist could have lived without their interference, or do you think they exploited what had naturally happened to make it appear as though they had done something to change it, or another reason?

[Dai Grepher]

I think there's enough evidence to support the idea that Flemeth saved the Warden and Hawke, especially the Warden. But with Hawke I don't see any reason to doubt Varric's narrative, unless you think he (or Hawke) has some motivation to lie. At this point, I"m fine with accepting that.

We only saw the Warden pass out. We didn't see what happened during that fight. For all we know, Flemeth is the one who caused the Warden to pass out. She may have done the same to Alistair. The Genlock Necromancer who attacks is the same one from Return to Ostagar. So it isn't like Flemeth killed the darkspawn. Maybe Flemeth used her magic to knock the Wardens out and then whisk them away. As for the Warden's wounds, we never see how bad the damage was from those arrows. We only have Flemeth and Morrigan's word for it.

As for Hawke's prologue, that is just how Varric tells it. We don't know if the darkspawn would have beaten the group or not. Flemeth simply joined in and helped. I think she even admits she may have saved Hawke if you pick a certain dialogue choice. She says to know you may have saved her life, just as she may have saved Hawke's.
 

With Solas, you're drawing a distinction between saving someone for their own gain and saving someone for purely altruistic reasons. Sure, it's Solas's fault and sure he has his own agenda, but it is true that he saved the Inquisitor.

I don't count that as a save. Not when he's the one who caused the threat in the first place. It's like if someone sent you a time-bomb and then chose to remotely disarm it just before it exploded. Did the person save your life, or merely refrain from killing you?
 

I don't think it's an assumption to state that the ancient elves have interfered with all three protagonists by rescuing them from a life threatening danger that likely would have kept them from progressing in their goals.

I think it is. They interfered, most definitely, but I don't think their lives were saved by them.
 

I'm curious why you're arguing that. Is it because you think that Lulupab is attributing too much to the ancient elves in that "saving" implies more altruist motives than you want to assign them and that there is a chance that the protagonist could have lived without their interference, or do you think they exploited what had naturally happened to make it appear as though they had done something to change it, or another reason?

Simply being skeptical. I see no evidence that any of them would have died, except perhaps the Inquisitor, but even that is questionable. Couldn't he have just cut his own arm off? Anyway, in Flemeth's case, I think she interfered more with the Warden than we are led to believe. I don't see the Warden passing out from a few arrow hits. I think she put him and Alistair (and Dog possibly) to sleep. Hey, maybe she even put the darkspawn to sleep, which explains why the Genlock Necromancer is still alive. Then she and Morrigan lied to the Wardens in order to make them feel indebted to them.

As for Hawke, I doubt Hawke would have been killed in that battle. But again, it was done to make Hawke feel a sense of indebtedness.

[veeia]

Okay, that's fair. I can see where it's coming from and it's supported by the game. Thanks for clarifying!

[Lulupab]

We were exploring ideas, no one said it was pure truth. So Dai Grepher elaboration is not anymore valid than ours.

[The Ascendant]

I am a bit curious how Solas managed to recruit such a large army of Elves. Why did they join him? Do they believe that the destruction of a world that is so heavily biased against them is preferable to eking out a poor existence in a world where no matter what they do, they will always be treated as pariahs?

The entire history of the Elves in Thedas is a bad situation deteriorating into an even worse one, sometimes it's their own fault true, but other times it's not. 

Either that or Solas is a remarkable bullshiter and is using his magic to brainwash them. 

[veeia]

We were exploring ideas, no one said it was pure truth. So Dai Grepher elaboration is not anymore valid than ours.

 

Agreed, I just wanted to understand what exactly he was saying. I don't think that reading is the most likely, but it's not one I had really considered before and it is possible. It's always nice to have other ideas floating around when looking at stuff. Even if they don't end up completely being what you think, they can inform interesting areas of asking questions etc.