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[Dai Grepher]

The scratched writing found in Skyhold refers to "the untorn veils".

Spoiler

Codex entry: On Skyhold

A page from an enchanter's journal, scorched to near-illegibility. the style is an old Fereldan dialect, circa mid to late Divine Age:

Experiments in ambient lingerings, first staging:

The question isn't "is it special?" The question is "how special?" We found relics, but there are always relics. Elves ranged far before their empire was crushed, but rarely did they return where they did not build. This place, they visited again and again. I see it in the fragments—clays from different nations, not just craftsmen. Styles from different centuries, not just clans. And yet no record of a ruin. The structures here are all Fereldan, with stone ferried up by a typical madman. Whatever was here, whatever natural spire, it was flattened for a floor. But I know the common shapes, and I will erect them as was custom. And we shall see what the elves wished to see.

The note below is in a different, uneducated hand:

I finish this for Master Ganot. His workings brought lightning. Much lightning. The rods are pools of metal now, and all his workings burned. Master was also struck. I write for him his last words because his fingers are ash and he did not live the night.

"The Veil is old here."

Skyhold has not just been claimed time and again, but sacked as well. We've managed to uncover some remnants, including a scratching under a pillar that mentions the name given by your witch. Old but still long after the place had been built over. But the author knew something of its first purpose, or at least, something of a legend.

Var'landivalis him sa'bellanaris san elgar
Melanada him sa'miras fena'taldin (word missing)
Nadasalin telrevas ne suli telsethenera
Tarasyl'an te'las vehn'ir abelath'vir (word missing)

Even with assistance from your elf, we managed only a partial translation. Elven is often a game of intents, not direct mapping of phonetic meaning. That means it's a mess.

Our belief transformed into everything. (assertation/problem? uncertain)
All time is transformed into the final/first death (uncertain),
Inevitable/threatened victory and horrible/promised freedom in the untorn veils, (uncertain)
Where the sky is held up/back, where the people give/gain love that is an apology/promise from/to....(missing subject, uncertain)

Mostly complete, as fragments go. The rhythm is strange, not like others I've recorded. Perhaps less a poem than a statement? The elven language does tend to meander.

—Notes from the archivist

Possible references to Skyhold in the readings of the great library of Val Royeaux.

What follows are the names of the powers that may have held a fortress in the region. Unfortunately, time and records are such that for many, the name is all that is known, and some of those are merely as reference in other works. Your fortress is a vagabond, but years will do that to stone well made.

- The Tan Empire: Passing mention of an unseen trading partner occupying "where Hold the Sky" in the Rivaini Ballad of Kin'tam of Nol, thought fictional, date uncertain.
- Father of Rast: "...and that Fereldan built upon the Sky..." Mentioned as a possible destination of the spirit of the dead bann, a Fereldan lullaby dated to the Exalted Age.
- Lady Bander of She: Fereldan Highwayman banished in 4:83 Black, thought to use "a place in the clouds" as refuge.
- Spire: Orlesion tavern song mentioning "skyholde" by name as a fanciful utopia, but also claiming nugs with wings and a dragon that blows bubbles.
- Ti O'rn Vi: Possible etching of major Skyhold features, but no context available. Unknown language; the tile has never been translated. Pre-Glory?
- Tevinter carving: A broken relief that matches the outline of the main gate, but all possible scholarship suggests a structure outside Minrathous pre-Divine. Possible shared inspiration, but it is not known in what direction.

Study continues. We will apprise you of any other references of worth.

—From the office of Lord Ghippin, archivist of the University of Orlais, Val Royeaux


Inquisitor,

Your archivists have asked me how I came to know the name and location of Skyhold. To the latter, I may speak easily: when one walks in the Fade, any fortress that has seen enough battle shines as a beacon for spirits drawn to death and struggle, even after centuries of disuse.

As to the former, I myself cannot say for certain. The whispers of old memories carry a thousand such names upon their breath, and it is possible that this name belonged to some other keep in some other land. Still, it seems an auspicious name, for there is one peculiarity of language that your scholars seem to have missed. When the words reached my dreaming mind, Skyhold was not simply a fortress near the sky, nor was it some simplistic allusion to holding up the sky. Skyhold—Tarasyl'an te'las—was "the place where the sky was held back." Given your efforts against the Breach and our battle against a madman who seeks to assault the Black City in the Fade, I can only hope that the Inquisition's new stronghold lives up to its name.

Solas

The line, "Inevitable/threatened victory and horrible/promised freedom in the untorn veils, (uncertain)" is worth noting. It seems whatever elf wrote that remembered veils that were torn, as he or she mentions untorn veils. To me this indicates that the freedom/victory Solas brought to the elvhen was due to mending torn veils, not creating the Veil. Closing all of them off with his magic created the "untorn" Veil. A solid Veil.

So I don't think Solas created the Veil. I think the Veil always had gaps in it. Then Solas closed the gaps. The lands of the elvhen were located within those gaps, so closing them off caused the structures of the elvhen to collapse because the magic of the Fade was cut off.

Also, the Hero (who lived) witnessed a torn Veil in the Blackmarsh. The Hero was closing these tears and gaps long before the Inquisitor was. Hmph!

But those gaps showed us desire demons from across the Veil. We then go to the Fade and can interact with these demons and slay them, thus mending those "tears". Justice also enhances our weapons to close the rifts.

[Lulupab]

I am a bit curious how Solas managed to recruit such a large army of Elves. Why did they join him? Do they believe that the destruction of a world that is so heavily biased against them is preferable to eking out a poor existence in a world where no matter what they do, they will always be treated as pariahs?

The entire history of the Elves in Thedas is a bad situation deteriorating into an even worse one, sometimes it's their own fault true, but other times it's not. 

Either that or Solas is a remarkable bullshiter can is using his magic to brainwash them. 

 

Well, depends on what "destruction" means here though. Thedas as a world is not going anywhere, Solas is not unleashing the blight to make the world wither and die, so no destruction of Thedas itself. The only destruction caused will be related to removal of the veil and defeat of people who will stand against Solas. I don't think he is going to hunt every living being and kill them. Remember that even during Evanuris rule humans lived in Thedas, simply not in their territories. So in a sense human dominance is the only thing that will be truly destroyed if Solas succeeds.

 

Given this, I get where those Elves are coming from. They don't have many choices here. Its either hopeless poverty in disease ridden slums, eternal life of serving (or slavery) as 2nd class citizen or lurking in remote and unlivable corners of the world. Instead they choose to fight, with worst case scenario being dying with dignity.

[Lulupab]

The scratched writing found in Skyhold refers to "the untorn veils".

Spoiler

Codex entry: On Skyhold

A page from an enchanter's journal, scorched to near-illegibility. the style is an old Fereldan dialect, circa mid to late Divine Age:

Experiments in ambient lingerings, first staging:

The question isn't "is it special?" The question is "how special?" We found relics, but there are always relics. Elves ranged far before their empire was crushed, but rarely did they return where they did not build. This place, they visited again and again. I see it in the fragments—clays from different nations, not just craftsmen. Styles from different centuries, not just clans. And yet no record of a ruin. The structures here are all Fereldan, with stone ferried up by a typical madman. Whatever was here, whatever natural spire, it was flattened for a floor. But I know the common shapes, and I will erect them as was custom. And we shall see what the elves wished to see.

The note below is in a different, uneducated hand:

I finish this for Master Ganot. His workings brought lightning. Much lightning. The rods are pools of metal now, and all his workings burned. Master was also struck. I write for him his last words because his fingers are ash and he did not live the night.

"The Veil is old here."

Skyhold has not just been claimed time and again, but sacked as well. We've managed to uncover some remnants, including a scratching under a pillar that mentions the name given by your witch. Old but still long after the place had been built over. But the author knew something of its first purpose, or at least, something of a legend.

Var'landivalis him sa'bellanaris san elgar
Melanada him sa'miras fena'taldin (word missing)
Nadasalin telrevas ne suli telsethenera
Tarasyl'an te'las vehn'ir abelath'vir (word missing)

Even with assistance from your elf, we managed only a partial translation. Elven is often a game of intents, not direct mapping of phonetic meaning. That means it's a mess.

Our belief transformed into everything. (assertation/problem? uncertain)
All time is transformed into the final/first death (uncertain),
Inevitable/threatened victory and horrible/promised freedom in the untorn veils, (uncertain)
Where the sky is held up/back, where the people give/gain love that is an apology/promise from/to....(missing subject, uncertain)

Mostly complete, as fragments go. The rhythm is strange, not like others I've recorded. Perhaps less a poem than a statement? The elven language does tend to meander.

—Notes from the archivist

Possible references to Skyhold in the readings of the great library of Val Royeaux.

What follows are the names of the powers that may have held a fortress in the region. Unfortunately, time and records are such that for many, the name is all that is known, and some of those are merely as reference in other works. Your fortress is a vagabond, but years will do that to stone well made.

- The Tan Empire: Passing mention of an unseen trading partner occupying "where Hold the Sky" in the Rivaini Ballad of Kin'tam of Nol, thought fictional, date uncertain.
- Father of Rast: "...and that Fereldan built upon the Sky..." Mentioned as a possible destination of the spirit of the dead bann, a Fereldan lullaby dated to the Exalted Age.
- Lady Bander of She: Fereldan Highwayman banished in 4:83 Black, thought to use "a place in the clouds" as refuge.
- Spire: Orlesion tavern song mentioning "skyholde" by name as a fanciful utopia, but also claiming nugs with wings and a dragon that blows bubbles.
- Ti O'rn Vi: Possible etching of major Skyhold features, but no context available. Unknown language; the tile has never been translated. Pre-Glory?
- Tevinter carving: A broken relief that matches the outline of the main gate, but all possible scholarship suggests a structure outside Minrathous pre-Divine. Possible shared inspiration, but it is not known in what direction.

Study continues. We will apprise you of any other references of worth.

—From the office of Lord Ghippin, archivist of the University of Orlais, Val Royeaux


Inquisitor,

Your archivists have asked me how I came to know the name and location of Skyhold. To the latter, I may speak easily: when one walks in the Fade, any fortress that has seen enough battle shines as a beacon for spirits drawn to death and struggle, even after centuries of disuse.

As to the former, I myself cannot say for certain. The whispers of old memories carry a thousand such names upon their breath, and it is possible that this name belonged to some other keep in some other land. Still, it seems an auspicious name, for there is one peculiarity of language that your scholars seem to have missed. When the words reached my dreaming mind, Skyhold was not simply a fortress near the sky, nor was it some simplistic allusion to holding up the sky. Skyhold—Tarasyl'an te'las—was "the place where the sky was held back." Given your efforts against the Breach and our battle against a madman who seeks to assault the Black City in the Fade, I can only hope that the Inquisition's new stronghold lives up to its name.

Solas

The line, "Inevitable/threatened victory and horrible/promised freedom in the untorn veils, (uncertain)" is worth noting. It seems whatever elf wrote that remembered veils that were torn, as he or she mentions untorn veils. To me this indicates that the freedom/victory Solas brought to the elvhen was due to mending torn veils, not creating the Veil. Closing all of them off with his magic created the "untorn" Veil. A solid Veil.

So I don't think Solas created the Veil. I think the Veil always had gaps in it. Then Solas closed the gaps. The lands of the elvhen were located within those gaps, so closing them off caused the structures of the elvhen to collapse because the magic of the Fade was cut off.

Also, the Hero (who lived) witnessed a torn Veil in the Blackmarsh. The Hero was closing these tears and gaps long before the Inquisitor was. Hmph!

But those gaps showed us desire demons from across the Veil. We then go to the Fade and can interact with these demons and slay them, thus mending those "tears". Justice also enhances our weapons to close the rifts.

 

According to another codex mending veil tears is one of the hardest feats of magic which is deemed impossible without blood magic or help of a fade entity. Also the veil is "vibrations" of magic so in a way it doesn't actually exist. If that codex is true, that means there are gateways between this world and the fade, Solas closed these gateways. Its not a far fetched idea because existence of gateways between worlds is actually logical. 

[Hellion Rex]

According to another codex mending veil tears is one of the hardest feats of magic which is deemed impossible without blood magic or help of a fade entity. Also the veil is "vibrations" of magic so in a way it doesn't actually exist. If that codes is true, that means there are gateways between this world and the fade, Solas closed these gateways. Its not a far fetched idea because existence of gateways between worlds is actually logical.

I don't think that that necessarily means there are any gateways to begin with. If the world was mixed with the Fade, then surely there wouldn't be a need for portals or gateways at all. Thus, there would be nothing for Solas to close. I would imagine that elven mages of that age would be able to traverse the deeper portions of the Fade without a need for a stable or stationary portal.

[Lulupab]

I don't think that that necessarily means there are any gateways to begin with. If the world was mixed with the Fade, then surely there wouldn't be a need for portals or gateways at all. Thus, there would be nothing for Solas to close. I would imagine that elven mages of that age would be able to traverse the deeper portions of the Fade without a need for a stable or stationary portal.

 

I don't necessarily believe that codex, since its just one elf experiencing things. Just thinking that its not impossible.

 

The things we learned about ancient Elves rather shows that the fade was literal part of their world, so the existence of gateways and portals seems unlikely.

[Qun00]

I wonder if the Dalish sneer at those who choose a simpler vallaslin design.

"Heh... s/he couldn't handle the pain and had to settle with just that".

[Hellion Rex]

I'm curious as to how the old elves defined what was a slave and who was free. Was it those elves conquered during war? Was it those without magic? Those without money?

Also, who was the enemy that was fought during the war that led to the rise of the Evanuris? Proto-darkspawn? The Titans? Those who would become the Forgotten Ones?

[Hellion Rex]

I wonder if the Dalish sneer at those who choose a simpler vallaslin design.

"Heh... s/he couldn't handle the pain and had to settle with just that".

I'd imagine only the most petty of them would do that, since the Vallaslin is meant to pay homage to their gods.

[veeia]

Hrm,  I could see someone choosing the simpler version of a specific vallaslin being seen by some in the community as prioritizing vanity/temporary escape from pain over piety. People do like to judge on silly things.

[Shechinah]

I wonder if the Dalish sneer at those who choose a simpler vallaslin design.

"Heh... s/he couldn't handle the pain and had to settle with just that".

 

I can see a few doing that but I don't think it would be an attitude that would be kindly looked at by the rest of the clan and I don't think it would be because of the tattoos. I think it'd stem from the adolesence attitude that a few people develop during that time and which some never seem to grow past even in their senior years. That kind of thing.
 

[Dai Grepher]

According to another codex mending veil tears is one of the hardest feats of magic which is deemed impossible without blood magic or help of a fade entity.

And yet you think one elf mage created the entire Veil?

Also the veil is "vibrations" of magic so in a way it doesn't actually exist. If that codex is true, that means there are gateways between this world and the fade, Solas closed these gateways. Its not a far fetched idea because existence of gateways between worlds is actually logical.

The Veil exists as whatever it is, a magical vibration, an idea, whatever. There don't need to be gateways in the sense that an eluvian is an object that acts as a gateway. The Breach itself was a type of gap or portal. The mark, Solas' magic, mended that gap. The original gaps were likely cleaner, more defined. Perhaps less obvious, or showing no visible manifestation. Maybe it was just a case where you crossed an invisible threshold and the real world suddenly got more real.

Thanks for considering the theory though.

I don't think that that necessarily means there are any gateways to begin with. If the world was mixed with the Fade, then surely there wouldn't be a need for portals or gateways at all. Thus, there would be nothing for Solas to close.

That's the debate however. Was the world mixed with Fade and Real, or was there a Veil over some parts of the world but not others? Vivienne points out that if there was a time when there was no Veil, human history would have recorded such an existence. It's possible that the Veil existed, but with gaps. The elvhen built their cities inside the gaps as well as in the Crossroads. The humans however existed in the Real where the Veil blocked the Fade. Then after the gaps were closed by Solas, the humans were able to migrate to Thedas.

I would imagine that elven mages of that age would be able to traverse the deeper portions of the Fade without a need for a stable or stationary portal.

According to elven lore as well as some codices in the Vir Dirthara, only Falon'Din and a few others could traverse the deeper portions of the Fade. The Forbidden Ones are said to have abandoned physical form in order to flee to the Fade where the Earth could not reach. Dirthamen's lore states he bound two demons Fear and Deceit to take him through the Fade to Falon'Din.

The area most elvhen likely existed in was the Crossroads. Anyone can exist there, at least a while. But the Fade was reserved for spirits or very powerful mages like Falon'Din and probably Mythal and Elgarnan, and probably the old gods as well.

I don't necessarily believe that codex, since its just one elf experiencing things. Just thinking that its not impossible.

The things we learned about ancient Elves rather shows that the fade was literal part of their world, so the existence of gateways and portals seems unlikely.

Another codex strongly suggests that even in the time before the fall there was a clear distinction between the Fade, the Crossroads, and the Real.

Spoiler

Codex entry: Vir Dirthara: Attentive Listeners

The pages of this book—memory?—show a solemn group of elves in an amphitheater of living wood, entire trees grown into seats and stairs for the listeners to recline on. Two other elves and a spirit of learning are speaking in turn on ways to bend the properties of the material world when casting spells. At the end, the spirit, with the air of a senior lecturer, floats forward and booms in a surprisingly deep voice.

"The unchanging world is delicate: spells of power invite disaster and annihilation. The unchanging world is stubborn: the pull of the earth fiercely resists making fire run like water or stone rise like mist. The unchanging world rings with its own harmony. Listen with fearless hearts, and great works will unfold."

The spirits refers to the unchanging world and its laws. So clearly there was Fade and Real, and the Crossroads was a mixing of both.

Spoiler

Codex entry: Vir Dirthara: Exile of the Forbidden Ones

The pages of this book—memory?—show the blazing forms of the Evanuris banishing a howling spirit from the reaches of the Fade that touch their lands. A voice rings out, stern and imperial:

"For abandoning the People in their time of greatest need, for casting aside form to flee to where the Earth could not reach, we declare Xebenkeck and others of her ilk exiled from the lands of the Evanuris. Beware! Their familiarity with shape allows them to travel paths unaided. They may be bound, but only the protection of your gods will fully shield you from their malice. They are Forbidden from the Earth that is our right."

This refers to the Fade touching the lands of the evanuris. This likely refers to the Crossroads. Also, there is a deeper part of the Fade that the Forbidden Ones fled to by casting aside physical form. But they also had knowledge of "shape", which lets them travel the paths unaided. This could mean the paths in the Crossroads or maybe the islands in the Fade.

As for how the world existed, the Chant of Light even says there was a time when there was only the Fade. Then the Maker extracted energy from the Fade and made the real world, then he created the Veil to separate the two. He also allowed the spirits to see the real so they could learn, and also for mortals to dream and return to the Fade to have new ideas. But the Chant does not say exactly how the Veil operated. Perhaps the Veil was created with gaps so that spirits and mortals could interact within the Crossroads.

[Sifr]

The scratched writing found in Skyhold refers to "the untorn veils".

Spoiler

Codex entry: On Skyhold

A page from an enchanter's journal, scorched to near-illegibility. the style is an old Fereldan dialect, circa mid to late Divine Age:

Experiments in ambient lingerings, first staging:

The question isn't "is it special?" The question is "how special?" We found relics, but there are always relics. Elves ranged far before their empire was crushed, but rarely did they return where they did not build. This place, they visited again and again. I see it in the fragments—clays from different nations, not just craftsmen. Styles from different centuries, not just clans. And yet no record of a ruin. The structures here are all Fereldan, with stone ferried up by a typical madman. Whatever was here, whatever natural spire, it was flattened for a floor. But I know the common shapes, and I will erect them as was custom. And we shall see what the elves wished to see.

The note below is in a different, uneducated hand:

I finish this for Master Ganot. His workings brought lightning. Much lightning. The rods are pools of metal now, and all his workings burned. Master was also struck. I write for him his last words because his fingers are ash and he did not live the night.

"The Veil is old here."

Skyhold has not just been claimed time and again, but sacked as well. We've managed to uncover some remnants, including a scratching under a pillar that mentions the name given by your witch. Old but still long after the place had been built over. But the author knew something of its first purpose, or at least, something of a legend.

Var'landivalis him sa'bellanaris san elgar
Melanada him sa'miras fena'taldin (word missing)
Nadasalin telrevas ne suli telsethenera
Tarasyl'an te'las vehn'ir abelath'vir (word missing)

Even with assistance from your elf, we managed only a partial translation. Elven is often a game of intents, not direct mapping of phonetic meaning. That means it's a mess.

Our belief transformed into everything. (assertation/problem? uncertain)
All time is transformed into the final/first death (uncertain),
Inevitable/threatened victory and horrible/promised freedom in the untorn veils, (uncertain)
Where the sky is held up/back, where the people give/gain love that is an apology/promise from/to....(missing subject, uncertain)

Mostly complete, as fragments go. The rhythm is strange, not like others I've recorded. Perhaps less a poem than a statement? The elven language does tend to meander.

—Notes from the archivist

Possible references to Skyhold in the readings of the great library of Val Royeaux.

What follows are the names of the powers that may have held a fortress in the region. Unfortunately, time and records are such that for many, the name is all that is known, and some of those are merely as reference in other works. Your fortress is a vagabond, but years will do that to stone well made.

- The Tan Empire: Passing mention of an unseen trading partner occupying "where Hold the Sky" in the Rivaini Ballad of Kin'tam of Nol, thought fictional, date uncertain.
- Father of Rast: "...and that Fereldan built upon the Sky..." Mentioned as a possible destination of the spirit of the dead bann, a Fereldan lullaby dated to the Exalted Age.
- Lady Bander of She: Fereldan Highwayman banished in 4:83 Black, thought to use "a place in the clouds" as refuge.
- Spire: Orlesion tavern song mentioning "skyholde" by name as a fanciful utopia, but also claiming nugs with wings and a dragon that blows bubbles.
- Ti O'rn Vi: Possible etching of major Skyhold features, but no context available. Unknown language; the tile has never been translated. Pre-Glory?
- Tevinter carving: A broken relief that matches the outline of the main gate, but all possible scholarship suggests a structure outside Minrathous pre-Divine. Possible shared inspiration, but it is not known in what direction.

Study continues. We will apprise you of any other references of worth.

—From the office of Lord Ghippin, archivist of the University of Orlais, Val Royeaux


Inquisitor,

Your archivists have asked me how I came to know the name and location of Skyhold. To the latter, I may speak easily: when one walks in the Fade, any fortress that has seen enough battle shines as a beacon for spirits drawn to death and struggle, even after centuries of disuse.

As to the former, I myself cannot say for certain. The whispers of old memories carry a thousand such names upon their breath, and it is possible that this name belonged to some other keep in some other land. Still, it seems an auspicious name, for there is one peculiarity of language that your scholars seem to have missed. When the words reached my dreaming mind, Skyhold was not simply a fortress near the sky, nor was it some simplistic allusion to holding up the sky. Skyhold—Tarasyl'an te'las—was "the place where the sky was held back." Given your efforts against the Breach and our battle against a madman who seeks to assault the Black City in the Fade, I can only hope that the Inquisition's new stronghold lives up to its name.

Solas

The line, "Inevitable/threatened victory and horrible/promised freedom in the untorn veils, (uncertain)" is worth noting. It seems whatever elf wrote that remembered veils that were torn, as he or she mentions untorn veils. To me this indicates that the freedom/victory Solas brought to the elvhen was due to mending torn veils, not creating the Veil. Closing all of them off with his magic created the "untorn" Veil. A solid Veil.

So I don't think Solas created the Veil. I think the Veil always had gaps in it. Then Solas closed the gaps. The lands of the elvhen were located within those gaps, so closing them off caused the structures of the elvhen to collapse because the magic of the Fade was cut off.

Also, the Hero (who lived) witnessed a torn Veil in the Blackmarsh. The Hero was closing these tears and gaps long before the Inquisitor was. Hmph!

But those gaps showed us desire demons from across the Veil. We then go to the Fade and can interact with these demons and slay them, thus mending those "tears". Justice also enhances our weapons to close the rifts.

 

You realise that you are basing the entire argument that Solas didn't create the Veil due to a single line in a poem, written by someone post-Veil who may or may not have only known of it through legend, as well as only partially translated in a manner that the two people deciphering it referred to as "a mess", so the precise meaning and context is unclear?

 

Now remember that Solas is one of the people whom was translating it and that we know he was lying his teeth off about how he knew the location of Skyhold, since he later admitted in Trespasser that the castle once belonged to him.

 

With this in mind, does it not seem more likely that the reason for the translation errors in the text, from an Ancient Elf who speaks the language fluently (something few in the modern age can say) are intentional because he may wish to obfuscate and conceal certain information from the Inquisition?

 

It becomes even more suspect when you notice that Solas was also unable to provide a full translation for the text in the Solasan temple, where the sole bits of information that were left out related to the subject and what he sought. Does seem a little suspicious he was unable to translate this information as well, especially from a location that can be translated as "A Prideful Place" and "Solas' Swag Pad" in Elven.

 

Let's be fair, even if the writing was badly damaged over the centuries, it still seems a little convenient that a fluent speaker who's been known to withhold information, should give either highly accurate or extremely vague translations at varying times. And tends to veer to the latter, whenever it comes to text that provides information regarding Skyhold and hints at it's original purpose.

 

If you were the one secretly responsible for creating the Veil on the site that would become Skyhold, why would you translate a poem that pretty much spills the entire beans and tips everyone off that Skyhold is far more important of a place that contains a conveniently abandoned castle?

[veeia]

Hah, thanks for that Sifr, I was starting to get very very confused about the nature of the Veil. I mean I still am, but that makes sense to me.

 

I don't know what to do with the idea that the Veil has always existed. It's a cool theory, but it doesn't make sense in the context of the direction the story has taken. From an extratextual perspective, it would seem like a waste of a buildup without a big enough payoff, unless Dai, you have some theory abut where that could be heading?

[Gervaise]

There are a couple of other pieces of information that may mean anything or nothing with regard to what existed before Solas took his action.   There is a codex by a senior mage in the Circles who says that you shouldn't regard the Veil as an actual physical barrier, more an opening of ones eyes.    Then Kieran mentions to a mage Inquisitor that not having magic is like being blind.   So may be the Veil is more a sort of energy that permeates the divide between the World of Dreams (Fade) and the Unchanging Word (Thedas).    What Solas did was alter its nature so that people could no longer "see" their way to enter it and in some way prevented the flow of magical energy as well.

 

To be honest everything is open to question regarding the nature of reality at the moment.  What we had been led to believe, mostly from the Chant of Light, which was largely southern Chantry and Drakon's propaganda, may have no bearing at all on what really is the case concerning what was there originally and what existed after Solas intervened.    

 

There is a great deal of paradox even in our own experience of it.     We can fall into the Fade and yet the entrance to it and the exit back into our world is always up in the sky.    Skyhold is meant to be the place where "the sky was held back", but if that was the Fade then it must have always seemed up in the air.    How then could people just walk between the Fade and the material world?       We can open and close gaps into the Fade with the anchor, yet it is also possible to rip open gaps with blood magic or simply large amounts of ordinary magic.     The Chant of Light teaches that mortals were never meant to walk there and it was ignoring that prohibition that brought the punishment and corruption upon the Magisters, yet we walk there with our companions (who do not have any magical mark to protect them) with no ill effects whatsoever.      It should not be possible to simply walk into the Fade through an eluvian, yet we can do precisely that when meeting with Flemeth.

[Hellion Rex]

Circles within circles. Questions without answers. The Veil's nature is certainly fascinating. To some extent, I think they are building the lore as we go forward, and might not completely have fleshed out who created the Veil as well as its nature during those early days, thus giving us all these paradoxes.

[Sifr]

Hah, thanks for that Sifr, I was starting to get very very confused about the nature of the Veil. I mean I still am, but that makes sense to me.

 

I don't know what to do with the idea that the Veil has always existed. It's a cool theory, but it doesn't make sense in the context of the direction the story has taken. From an extratextual perspective, it would seem like a waste of a buildup without a big enough payoff, unless Dai, you have some theory abut where that could be heading?

 

Didn't mean to nitpick, but it did seem a little iffy to say Solas didn't create the Veil or that it always existed based on a badly mangled poem translation, you'd probably get more insight on Elven lore from the Macarena.

 

Dai might be onto something about the different iterations of the Fade though, since the evidence does seem to back up that the Fade, Thedas and places like the Crossroads and Vir Dirthara operate on distinct planes that are separated from each other.

 

That being said, Morrigan and a Mage Inquisitor comment on the Crossroads being artificial and deteriorating, so that in time the pocket dimension would eventually collapse back into the Fade. The Dark Future in Redcliffe similarly shows that were the Breach left unchecked, it would have torn down the walls of reality in southern Thedas to the point where the Fade and Thedas were indistinguishable from one another.

 

This might suggest (as well as Solas' comments about the Pre-Veil world) that the Fade is the natural plane of existence, not Thedas.

[Hellion Rex]

Didn't mean to nitpick, but it did seem a little iffy to say Solas didn't create the Veil or that it always existed based on a badly mangled poem translation, you'd probably get more insight on Elven lore from the Macarena.

Dai might be onto something about the different iterations of the Fade though, since the evidence does seem to back up that the Fade, Thedas and places like the Crossroads and Vir Dirthara operate on distinct planes that are separated from each other.

That being said, Morrigan and a Mage Inquisitor comment on the Crossroads being artificial and deteriorating, so that in time the pocket dimension would eventually collapse back into the Fade. The Dark Future in Redcliffe similarly shows that were the Breach left unchecked, it would have torn down the walls of reality in southern Thedas to the point where the Fade and Thedas were indistinguishable from one another.

This might suggest (as well as Solas' comments about the Pre-Veil world) that the Fade is the natural plane of existence, not Thedas.

I don't know. It's entirely possible that the reverse is also true. The Crossroads reverting into the Fade might simply mean that it was created to branch off the Fade, and simply reverts to its initial state.

In regards to what you said about the Breach in the dark future, like I said earlier, that doesn't necessarily mean the Fade came first and is the "natural" state of things. The reverse is also possible.

[Sifr]

I don't know. It's entirely possible that the reverse is also true. The Crossroads reverting into the Fade might simply mean that it was created to branch off the Fade, and simply reverts to its initial state.

In regards to what you said about the Breach in the dark future, like I said earlier, that doesn't necessarily mean the Fade came first and is the "natural" state of things. The reverse is also possible.

 

Solas suggests that it's all meant to be one reality, so I guess saying the "Fade" is the natural state is a misnomer because in the Pre-Veil world, there was no "Fade" or "Thedas" as both overlapped and were inextricable as to be indistinguishable from each other.

 

I guess it's more accurate to say perhaps that a prime reality may have existed as the natural state of existence in the Dragon Age universe, with the different pocket dimensions existing as their own planes within it, all distinct but not necessarily separate?

[Dai Grepher]

You realise that you are basing the entire argument that Solas didn't create the Veil due to a single line in a poem

No, that isn't my only piece of evidence. That's just a clue.

written by someone post-Veil who may or may not have only known of it through legend, as well as only partially translated in a manner that the two people deciphering it referred to as "a mess", so the precise meaning and context is unclear?

The writer could have been distraught after the fall, which could have happened recently before that. But the references do match up with the story of freedom and the Veil.

Now remember that Solas is one of the people whom was translating it and that we know he was lying his teeth off about how he knew the location of Skyhold, since he later admitted in Trespasser that the castle once belonged to him.

Right, but it likely belonged to him before he cast his spell. Afterward it is implied that he had to sleep. He claims he awoke still weak a year before he joined the Inquisition. So the writer of that message was likely one of Solas' followers during the war against the evanuris. Solas may have lied about the translation, or he may have been honestly baffled by what the writer was trying to convey. If Solas genuinely believes he created the Veil, then any comment about him not having created it would be confusing to him.

With this in mind, does it not seem more likely that the reason for the translation errors in the text, from an Ancient Elf who speaks the language fluently (something few in the modern age can say) are intentional because he may wish to obfuscate and conceal certain information from the Inquisition?

Perhaps. But I see no reason to lie and say "untorn" Veil instead of simply conveying that the Veil was never torn. Nothing in the message implicates Solas in anything.

It becomes even more suspect when you notice that Solas was also unable to provide a full translation for the text in the Solasan temple, where the sole bits of information that were left out related to the subject and what he sought. Does seem a little suspicious he was unable to translate this information as well, especially from a location that can be translated as "A Prideful Place" and "Solas' Swag Pad" in Elven.

That could have been BioWare's oversight, or again, necessary context or information may have been missing. You get the same message if you don't have Solas in the party (according to the wikia).

Let's be fair, even if the writing was badly damaged over the centuries, it still seems a little convenient that a fluent speaker who's been known to withhold information, should give either highly accurate or extremely vague translations at varying times. And tends to veer to the latter, whenever it comes to text that provides information regarding Skyhold and hints at it's original purpose.

But for what purpose? The Oasis message says nothing incriminating except about the one who was bound there. The Skyhold message implies the existence of a Veil with tears in it, compared to an untorn Veil. So if this was a lie, why would Solas make that up? Why would he want us to believe the Veil once had tears in it?

I think it's more likely that the ancient elf wrote what he or she perceived and Solas simply didn't understand what the elf meant by it. Or maybe he came to a different conclusion, like "untorn veil" means that the Veil can't be torn despite the best efforts of the ancient elves at trying to do so.

If you were the one secretly responsible for creating the Veil on the site that would become Skyhold, why would you translate a poem that pretty much spills the entire beans and tips everyone off that Skyhold is far more important of a place that contains a conveniently abandoned castle?

But no one knows Solas is responsible for it. So he has no motive to lie. Besides, he had someone else translating as well. Could he risk appearing untruthful to that person who might double-check his translation?

[Dai Grepher]

I don't know what to do with the idea that the Veil has always existed. It's a cool theory, but it doesn't make sense in the context of the direction the story has taken.

I never wrote that it always existed. The only character I know of who has suggested that theory is Sera, and she doesn't know stuff.

From an extratextual perspective, it would seem like a waste of a buildup without a big enough payoff, unless Dai, you have some theory abut where that could be heading?

I do. I think DA4 or DA5 will have Solas launch his plan, and then it backfires on him when only the gaps reopen. Only certain portions of Thedas burn in the raw chaos caused by the return of the Fade's magic. Most parts of the world will still be protected by the Veil, and humans will survive. However, the evanuris will be released, as will the old gods. Solas will be horrified and confused, then Mythal will appear and explain how that was all part of her plan to get back at the evanuris. Mythal will strike Solas down, but he will barely survive thanks to some trickery. The (ex)Inquisitor will then find Solas and inherit whatever remains of his powers so the people of Thedas can fight the evanuris. The (ex)Inquisitor can then either kill Solas, let him die alone, or stay with him until he dies so that he doesn't die alone. Extra option for the female Levellan who romanced him.

Anyway, the first part of this is the relevant part. The entire Veil will not come down. That would result in a complete series reset, as Thedas would no longer exist. So having the changes localized to certain areas will allow the series to continue while also providing a new look on the existence that was during the days of the evanuris.

Also, the Black City still needs to come into play at some point.

There are a couple of other pieces of information that may mean anything or nothing with regard to what existed before Solas took his action. There is a codex by a senior mage in the Circles who says that you shouldn't regard the Veil as an actual physical barrier, more an opening of ones eyes. Then Kieran mentions to a mage Inquisitor that not having magic is like being blind. So may be the Veil is more a sort of energy that permeates the divide between the World of Dreams (Fade) and the Unchanging Word (Thedas). What Solas did was alter its nature so that people could no longer "see" their way to enter it and in some way prevented the flow of magical energy as well.

To be honest everything is open to question regarding the nature of reality at the moment. What we had been led to believe, mostly from the Chant of Light, which was largely southern Chantry and Drakon's propaganda, may have no bearing at all on what really is the case concerning what was there originally and what existed after Solas intervened.

BioWare claims they will neither confirm nor deny the existence of the Maker. Having Solas create the Veil effectively denies the Maker's existence.

There is a great deal of paradox even in our own experience of it. We can fall into the Fade and yet the entrance to it and the exit back into our world is always up in the sky. Skyhold is meant to be the place where "the sky was held back", but if that was the Fade then it must have always seemed up in the air. How then could people just walk between the Fade and the material world? We can open and close gaps into the Fade with the anchor, yet it is also possible to rip open gaps with blood magic or simply large amounts of ordinary magic.

Probably something to do with location. The evanuris built cities in the sky. So of course that's where the gaps would be. The Fade might also be stronger the further away from the earth you are. Like, the earth has its own influence that cancels out the Fade energies. So building cities in the sky was logical because it got them closer to the Fade's magic, or more accurately, further away from the negative influences of the Real.

The Chant of Light teaches that mortals were never meant to walk there and it was ignoring that prohibition that brought the punishment and corruption upon the Magisters, yet we walk there with our companions (who do not have any magical mark to protect them) with no ill effects whatsoever.

But the Maker has left by the time we get there. I think it was also explained somewhere that the mark protected you and all those in the party, but I don't remember it being explained.

It should not be possible to simply walk into the Fade through an eluvian, yet we can do precisely that when meeting with Flemeth.

That could be due to Mythal, or even Urthemiel, or the nature of that particular Fade "world", which Flemeth says is hers and that she is stronger in that place.

[Lulupab]

And yet you think one elf mage created the entire Veil?

Solas is not "one elf". He obliterated a full battalion of Qunari forces with a thought, and he was still getting more powerful with time. After events of Inquisition he is the most powerful being in Thedas, at least until someone more powerful is revealed.

The Veil exists as whatever it is, a magical vibration, an idea, whatever. There don't need to be gateways in the sense that an eluvian is an object that acts as a gateway. The Breach itself was a type of gap or portal. The mark, Solas' magic, mended that gap. The original gaps were likely cleaner, more defined. Perhaps less obvious, or showing no visible manifestation. Maybe it was just a case where you crossed an invisible threshold and the real world suddenly got more real.

Thanks for considering the theory though.

However there is more evidence that veil was created at some point and less evidence that it was all gaps and veil always existed. But all of it is vague anyway so its only slightly favored towards the "veil was created" theory. So your theory as valid enough as far as theories go.

[Hellion Rex]

Solas suggests that it's all meant to be one reality, so I guess saying the "Fade" is the natural state is a misnomer because in the Pre-Veil world, there was no "Fade" or "Thedas" as both overlapped and were inextricable as to be indistinguishable from each other.

I guess it's more accurate to say perhaps that a prime reality may have existed as the natural state of existence in the Dragon Age universe, with the different pocket dimensions existing as their own planes within it, all distinct but not necessarily separate?

That's certainly a possibility. The way you had initially worded it sounded more as of the Fade came first and then Thedas formed. I do think the two came into being nearly at the same time, if not already unified.
To some extent, my feeling is that when the world of substance began to grow, so did the fade's presence. They feed into each other, the growth of one affecting the other. As more life came into being, the more Fade there was to reflect it.

[Hellion Rex]

@Dai Grepher, it's not that difficult to believe that one elf managed it. For one, we have the Orb, which we saw damn near bring down the Veil, so is it really that much of a stretch to believe that it could help create it? On top of that, Solas had to have been damn near Evanuris level of mage prior to his slumber. We have seen Mythal's magic, stuff that goes beyond any of the parlor tricks of modern magic. And that's when she's barely a shadow of her former self, millennia later.

Also, having Solas make the Veil does absolutely nothing to disprove the Maker at all. Just because one thing got mixed up doesn't mean the rest couldn't be true.

[The Ascendant]

Does anyone know what happened to the Night Elves? That company of Elves Loghain used during the Ferelden Rebellion?

[Lulupab]

If I'm not wrong they were forgotten after Ferelden kicked out Orlais...