96 replies to this topic

[gothpunkboy89]

Sure, that's what this is.

That doesn't surprise me.

I was definitely speaking out of turn last night when I assumed that you wanted a return to civility in discourse.

Okay then.

 

Don't play the wounded player only trying to be nice card.

 

Considering that he kills 117 people later on, then I'd say he's more than just a guy who got lucky. And again, your analogy doesn't work. Think more along the lines of whether we need military escorts when moving off-shore drilling rigs. I don't actually know if we do that or not. Maybe the Coast Guard assists? But again, you're talking about two very different things. A thermonuclear warhead is by nature a weapon. An asteriod is not.

 

 

 

The materials that create a thermonuclear bomb on their own are not a weapon. Just like an asteroid by it self is not a weapon. As soon as you refine the components and assemble them that becomes a bomb. Just like once you attach mass effect fields and thrusters to an asteroid it becomes a city killing weapon. And much like an atomic bomb it may never live up to it's threat level before it is disposed of. And the material that it is made up of in the asteroid's case minerals or in the case of the bomb the uranium can be used to help people rather then harm them.

 

My comparison between the two as well as example is completely valid because both have in the wrong hands the capability to kill millions. The asteroid how ever has a much larger body count possibility. To state anything differently is only because you seem to want to be a contrarian to anything I state.

 

It is well known by that point in time that the Batarians make slave raids on human colonies. With this a known fact leaving an asteroid being piloted towards a garden planet without some serious security is just like my example of the US having a 90 lbs asthmatic guy biking a nuke across ISIS territory.  Balak is nothing more then a 2 bit slaver who stumbled on the for reasons unknown unguarded massive asteroid being pointed at a human colony planet and simply wiped out the minimal if any security forces. And simply decided to keep the engines that were already on running until it would be to late to stop the asteroid.

 

His forces were not massive this was not some massive invasion were they sneaked into Alliance space, rigged up the asteroid and fired it at the planet. A single Alliance Carrier would have had enough fire power and troops to have prevented this.

[Monica21]

Don't play the wounded player only trying to be nice card.

It's unfortunate that that's how you read that.

My comparison between the two as well as example is completely valid...

If you say so. Far be it for me to be a contrarian.

[gothpunkboy89]

It's unfortunate that that's how you read that.


If you say so. Far be it for me to be a contrarian.

 

 

Citadel Conventions These diplomatic talks occurred in the wake of the Krogan Rebellions, as a response to the destruction of the conflict and an attempt to distance the Council from the brutal Krogan warfare.

 

The Conventions regulate the use of Weapons of Mass Destruction. A WMD causes environmental alteration to a world. A bomb that produces a large crater is not considered a WMD; a bomb that causes a "nuclear winter" is.

 

Use of WMD is forbidden on "garden" worlds like Earth, with ecospheres that can readily support a population. If a habitable world is destroyed, it will not be replaced for millions of years. The Conventions do not forbid the use of WMD on hostile worlds or in sealed space-station environments. Many militaries continue to develop and maintain stockpiles.

The Conventions graded Weapons of Mass Destruction into tiers of concern. Tier I is the greatest threat to galactic peace.

 

TIER I: Large kinetic impacters, such as asteroid drops or de-orbited space stations. Effectively free and available in any system (in the form of debris left over from planetary accretion), kinetic impacters are the weapons of choice for terrorists and "third galaxy" nations.

 

TIER II: Uncontrolled self-replicating weapons, such as nanotechnology, viral or bacteriological organisms, "Von Neumann devices", and destructive computer viruses. These weapons can lie dormant for millennia, waiting for a careless visitor to carry them on to another world.

 

TIER III: Large energy-burst weapons such as nuclear or antimatter warheads.

 

TIER IV: Alien species deliberately introduced to crowd out native forms necessary for the health of an ecosystem. Ecological tampering can take years to bear fruit, making it difficult to prove.

 

[Monica21]

Good job!

[Dantriges]

It´s quite odd, that they didn´t guard it. Asteroids have been used as WMDs and the mission is in the middle of the game where a rogue, human hating, turian spectre is on the loose, who recently attacked the neighboring colony world and tried to bomb it. And the relocation of the astaeroid wasn´t probably kept secret.

[gothpunkboy89]

It´s quite odd, that they didn´t guard it. Asteroids have been used as WMDs and the mission is in the middle of the game where a rogue, human hating, turian spectre is on the loose, who recently attacked the neighboring colony world and tried to bomb it. And the relocation of the astaeroid wasn´t probably kept secret.

 

And that is why I can spare him. Balak is a two bit slaver who just managed to stumble across a jack pot because of sheer incompetence.

[Beregond5]

Kaidan on the other hand is way too much of a namby pamby to be one, I love the guy but still....
He shies away from making hard choices, and is a follower, not a leader. He's more likely to believe someone from the Alliance/Council, even if they're actually a bad guy, and not believe someone from Cerberus, even if they've proved themselves to be alright.
I couldn't quite believe he got made a Spectre, when that happened my Shep was like 'oh...great, congrats (wtf if they let him in it doesn't say so much about me does it??)'.

I kind of always got the impression that Udina wanted Kaidan exactly because he could easily manipulate him. We have an officer who considers himself Alliance above all else to the point that he sees everything very black and white; doesn't even listen to Shepard - a former fellow officer and a friend- that it's not like that. In Kaidan's mind, everything is simple. Cerberus equals bad and Alliance equals good. It's only after the attempted coup, orchestrated by Udina, that he seems to reevaluate things. That's evident after rescuing the Cerberus scientists when he says 'So... These people who rebuilt you were good.'

I guess my point is, Kaidan wasn't meant to be a Spectre when Udina made him one. It's quite evident when you talk to Udina about this. I don't remember what he said word for word, but the gist was 'He is obedient and he doesn't have your. .. issues.'

[ArcadiaGrey]

I kind of always got the impression that Udina wanted Kaidan exactly because he could easily manipulate him. We have an officer who considers himself Alliance above all else to the point that he sees everything very black and white; doesn't even listen to Shepard - a former fellow officer and a friend- that it's not like that. In Kaidan's mind, everything is simple. Cerberus equals bad and Alliance equals good. It's only after the attempted coup, orchestrated by Udina, that he seems to reevaluate things. That's evident after rescuing the Cerberus scientists when he says 'So... These people who rebuilt you were good.'

I guess my point is, Kaidan wasn't meant to be a Spectre when Udina made him one. It's quite evident when you talk to Udina about this. I don't remember what he said word for word, but the gist was 'He is obedient and he doesn't have your. .. issues.'

 

Ah yes that's a good point.  I like Kaidan but he does bring on a few facepalm moments, it has to be said.

When I first played I didn't know Udina was working with Cerberus so I really questioned his decision.  The only explanation I could think of was 'cause the writers wrote it that way' or 'most humans are on Earth and Kaidan/Ashley are the best they've got'.

 

But then knowing about Udina's treachery the appointment does make more sense, he can manipulate either of them and would just be glad to have a human on the council, whoever it was.

[congokong]

And that is why I can spare him. Balak is a two bit slaver who just managed to stumble across a jack pot because of sheer incompetence.

Just like he managed to stumble across those codes to kill hundreds and shut down life support machines in the hospital? Balak was no two bit slaver. He was the batarian hegenomy's best agent apparently. He had influence, the means, and the will to cause extreme havoc, unlike most. Keep shutting your ears to the facts if you want. Anything to not admit being wrong, even when ME3 proved it.

[CuriousArtemis]

I think paragon!Shepard is very believable as a Spectre. Paragon!Shepard prefers not to kill innocent people, but s/he isn't an utter moron bumbling about the galaxy, completely unable to obtain information or get things done.

 

For comparison, Jondum Bau seemed rather paragon-like. Not all Spectres are of the Tela Vasir variety. (And, in fact, look at what happens to the likes of Vasir and Saren. See where their ruthlessness gets them?)

 

Kaidan as Spectre as someone pointed out makes little sense at first. But I was playing ME3 recently and the announcement guy said that some speculated making Kaidan a Spectre was a political move. That seems more believable. 

[congokong]

For comparison, Jondum Bau seemed rather paragon-like. Not all Spectres are of the Tela Vasir variety. (And, in fact, look at what happens to the likes of Vasir and Saren. See where their ruthlessness gets them?)

Of course things go poorly for Vasir and Saren. They had the misfortune of being written to oppose the trilogy's hero. Using that as proof that being ruthless does not work as a spectre is silly; especially regarding Saren who was indoctrinated.

[gothpunkboy89]

Just like he managed to stumble across those codes to kill hundreds and shut down life support machines in the hospital? Balak was no two bit slaver. He was the batarian hegenomy's best agent apparently. He had influence, the means, and the will to cause extreme havoc, unlike most. Keep shutting your ears to the facts if you want. Anything to not admit being wrong, even when ME3 proved it.

 

Yes codes that should have been altered or disabled the moment the Batarians pulled out of the Council.  Again complete and utter failure at the most basic level of security is the only reason he even managed to pull that off.

[congokong]

Yes codes that should have been altered or disabled the moment the Batarians pulled out of the Council.  Again complete and utter failure at the most basic level of security is the only reason he even managed to pull that off.

Your head canon only weakens your argument. Security failures only mean Balak is even more of a threat since it is easier for him to commit terrorism.

[gothpunkboy89]

Your head canon only weakens your argument. Security failures only mean Balak is even more of a threat since it is easier for him to commit terrorism.

 

How is it head cannon?

 

The mission out right states that they are using old Batarian Diplomatic Codes. Batarians were part of the Council races before humans showed up. But their appearance and apparent favoritism of them over the Batarians caused them to cut all diplomatic ties with the Council and close up their embassy.

 

This is the equivalent since the various resources previously allocated to the Batarians would be reused. Or the equivalent of handing out your home WiFi password out to your neighbors then being surprised when the police raid your house looking for the two dozen illegal movies downloads on your computer. They aren't some super smart computer wiz hacker. You gave them the password to freely access your WiFi then seem surprised when the guy the guy next door who doesn't like you takes advantage of that for ill intent.

[obbie31]

I agree with being Paragon 100 percent of the time is boring. 

 

While I usually max out the Paragon side, many of the renegade options are better and simply make more sense in my book. Stopping the quarian/geth war in ME3 is one example of this.

 

Full paragon just doesn't work while paragon mixed with some renegade options feels like it can make a lot of sense actually. Full renegade doesn't make much sense either.

[congokong]

How is it head cannon?

The mission out right states that they are using old Batarian Diplomatic Codes. Batarians were part of the Council races before humans showed up. But their appearance and apparent favoritism of them over the Batarians caused them to cut all diplomatic ties with the Council and close up their embassy.

This is the equivalent since the various resources previously allocated to the Batarians would be reused. Or the equivalent of handing out your home WiFi password out to your neighbors then being surprised when the police raid your house looking for the two dozen illegal movies downloads on your computer. They aren't some super smart computer wiz hacker. You gave them the password to freely access your WiFi then seem surprised when the guy the guy next door who doesn't like you takes advantage of that for ill intent.

I notice you solely focus on the semantics of the term "head canon" rather than address the actual point. But it is a head canon because, unless the game outright says so, you have no way of knowing the technological abilities and limitations of a fictional futuristic universe. You are making head canons based on your limited knowledge with assumptions that will support your view. That is the only argument (and an irrelevant one) you stubbornly have when the game provides objective proof that letting Balak go was a mistake: 117+ lives to 3.

[gothpunkboy89]

I notice you solely focus on the semantics of the term "head canon" rather than address the actual point. But it is a head canon because, unless the game outright says so, you have no way of knowing the technological abilities and limitations of a fictional futuristic universe. You are making head canons based on your limited knowledge with assumptions that will support your view. That is the only argument (and an irrelevant one) you stubbornly have when the game provides objective proof that letting Balak go was a mistake: 117+ lives to 3.

 

Yes 117 lives BECAUSE of a complete and utter failure in even the most basic security. If who ever is in charge of security did their job and disabled or altered the diplomatic codes as soon as the Batarians left as they should have. Since they can always create new codes if they were to ever rejoin for security reasons. Balak would have never been capable of killing those people.

 

117 people were killed in a ship crash because the Council left a back door open for a race that willingly left the Council to exploit. If they removed that back door the diplomatic codes gave then he never would have been capable of pulling that off. Just like if the Alliance provided even the most basic military escort of even a couple of light frigates he never would have been capable of threatening the Asteroid.

 

This is not head cannon. This is a fact of how he managed to pull off those actions. You take a cocaine addict and tell him there is a mountain of cocaine behind an unlocked door. And he opens it and ODs on it. I don't blame the addict I blame the idiots who didn't think maybe a lock on the door would have been useful. That lock would have stopped everything.

[congokong]

Yes 117 lives BECAUSE of a complete and utter failure in even the most basic security. If who ever is in charge of security did their job and disabled or altered the diplomatic codes as soon as the Batarians left as they should have. Since they can always create new codes if they were to ever rejoin for security reasons. Balak would have never been capable of killing those people.

117 people were killed in a ship crash because the Council left a back door open for a race that willingly left the Council to exploit. If they removed that back door the diplomatic codes gave then he never would have been capable of pulling that off. Just like if the Alliance provided even the most basic military escort of even a couple of light frigates he never would have been capable of threatening the Asteroid.

This is not head cannon. This is a fact of how he managed to pull off those actions. You take a cocaine addict and tell him there is a mountain of cocaine behind an unlocked door. And he opens it and ODs on it. I don't blame the addict I blame the idiots who didn't think maybe a lock on the door would have been useful. That lock would have stopped everything.

It is irrelevant. Those over 117 lives are not devalued to be worth less than 3 because of how their death was possible. No idea where you are going with this. As said, your argument only makes Balak an even more capable threat.

[gothpunkboy89]

It is irrelevant. Those over 117 lives are not devalued to be worth less than 3 because of how their death was possible. No idea where you are going with this. As said, your argument only makes Balak an even more capable threat.

 

Actually it does. Because they were incredibly easily preventable deaths. The only capable threat that exists is the Alliance and the Council's ****** poor security set ups.  If one two bit slaver can pull that off I shudder to think what actual capable people are pulling off.

[congokong]

Actually it does. Because they were incredibly easily preventable deaths. The only capable threat that exists is the Alliance and the Council's ****** poor security set ups. If one two bit slaver can pull that off I shudder to think what actual capable people are pulling off.

Dead is dead. And he is not a two bit slaver. You just aren't listening though.

[gothpunkboy89]

Dead is dead. And he is not a two bit slaver. You just aren't listening though.

 

Every year thousands of people die from drinking and driving. Do we hold alcohol as a capable threat? If so why is it still legal? The Alliance R&D department created a VI that went on a killing spree killing everyone in the base. So at least a dozen if not more solders. Is the Alliance R&D department now a capable threat?  EDI was the VI that killed all those Alliance Soldiers. Is she a capable threat? Kind of awkward for how often people use her as proof Synthetic are not a threat.

[The One True Nobody]

Paragon playthroughs always walk a line between believability and idealist suspension of disbelief. There's a part of all of us that wants to believe that if you bludgeon the cynicism of a situation hard enough, you can bring about the best possible outcome in any conflict without resorting to big sacrifices. There are times when adhering to this too strongly does come back to bite you, but Mass Effect wants to be a hopeful story, not a gritty-and-pessimistic one, so it rarely really penalizes you for running Paragon, although it does make it clear that Shepard has to try harder to make certain things happen. Often there's also no true benefit to refusing to take a Renegade option that doesn't have a Paragon counterpart, so it's possible and in fact quite easy to play as a Shepard that has a peaceful, idealistic temperament but still has an aggressive edge when the time comes to put a boot in someone's arse.

 

I don't think it's "believable," per se. But I think it's something that players want to believe in enough that escaping reality to be the hero isn't a bad time.

 

The problem with a Paragon playthrough in my mind is that, while there's nothing wrong with it in principle, the two moralities are balancing in such a way that playing pure Renegade generally subtracts from the game and from your options, while playing pure Paragon adds to them in most of the same cases. There are only a few specific instances where choosing Renegade gives you an advantage. In some aspects this makes sense, because the fight against the Reapers ends up requiring you to unite the galaxy, and instilling international trust prior to that is more of a Paragon-aligned concept. But often it feels like the Renegade route results in you experiencing less of the save import aspect of the game.