28 réponses à ce sujet

[Silvery]

There was never any tension to the moment where you would meet Solas and find out what he was. From the end credit cutscene in the game we already know that Solas is the Dread Wolf. 

 

 

Then in the dlc when you have this scene (at 2:20) with the Viddasala where she tells your Inquisitor and there crew that Solas is a agent of Fen'Harel. There is just a huge disconnect in this scene between player and character. You as the player already know what Solas is, so you are not shocked at all. In contrast your Inquisitor is shocked. 

 

 

Would it not have been more of a shock to everyone to not have the end of credit cutscene at all? Then you as the player get shocked twice. Once from what the Viddasala revels to you and then from the ultimate reveal from Solas, where he could have just told you what happen with Flemeth, while that cutscene was playing as a part added to his explanation. 

[Aliceeverafter]

good question - I'm going to have to replay this now to go find out!

[ArcadiaGrey]

I think the end scene is important for those playing DAI at release and who'd have to wait for Trespasser to come out.  

 

You've finished the game and think you understand what happens, then boom, it's all turned on it's head.  A perfect tease for Trespasser and DA4, and also a way to make you rethink everything that you've experienced.  So it's clever in that way, and I think valuable too.

 

Also not everyone buys DLCs, so if you don't buy Trespasser you'll still have an idea of what's going on.

[Daerog]

That's what happens when one allows themselves to see things the PC doesn't see.

I can see the benefit of the scene not being shown initially; however, we wouldn't know what happened to Flemeth if that was the case.

I was fine with it all and was glad to play out how the Inquisitor(s) would react.

Reading the books kills some surprises as well, but knowing the Architect in The Calling before Awakening was better than not, since his character was barely revealed in Awakening and Utha was just some random servant in the game without explanation.

[Lunatica]

I think it was a design choice to include the post credit scene where Flemeth reveal the identity of the Dread wolf for all those players who will not play Trespasser which is after all Dlc so a product not played by many gamers.

[DuskWanderer]

What bothered me was that there was no mention of the Templars at all if you allied with them. If there's one thing I really hate that BioWARE's been doing recently, it's giving us choices, but only pretending one of them is the "correct" choice. It was the genophage all over again. 

[Daerog]

What bothered me was that there was no mention of the Templars at all if you allied with them. If there's one thing I really hate that BioWARE's been doing recently, it's giving us choices, but only pretending one of them is the "correct" choice. It was the genophage all over again.

Ya, that reminds me of how I was a bit dumbfounded when Divine Viv allowed the College to exist.

It made sense for BW to do it for the franchise, but it made Viv the best choice for Divine since she is the total compromise with enough political cunning to play the Game and not be played by it. She also won't dissolve the faith like Leliana will with her throwing out traditions at a whim. However, she will be a public mage that will be seen as a traditionalist to the people (ignoring the fact she is a mage Divine) who is willing to work with the progressive mages.

She became the pro-mage, pro-Circle, and pro-Chantry candidate who will reasonably compromise on stuff.

(Feel like I have to add "imo" even if that should be obvious.)

[BansheeOwnage]

It's a good question. It would definitely be more of a shock, and I'd love to be able to temporarily erase my knowledge of the Stinger and then play Trespasser, just like how I'd love to temporarily delete my knowledge of Star Wars and watch them chronologically instead of in order of release. It would certainly change my perspective!

 

I wonder if I should recommend any new players to skip it and just play Trespasser.

 

As for why they did it like that though, it's pretty simple; it's a hook. A sequel hook and a DLC hook. In a way, it's like ME3's Breath Scene, at least given the rumour that it was supposed to only appear after all the DLC was released, not during the base game. So they decided to implement it early because the ending was just too bleak. That's a theory anyway, I don't know if it is true. So something similar happened with DA:I's Stinger, but instead in implementing it because the end was too bleak, they did it to tide people over until DLC and give them lots to think about and discuss before then, because a lot of people would have moved on if not.

[PapaCharlie9]

There's only one thing?

 

I completely agree. If it weren't for the feels, in the context of Trespasser itself, the meeting with Solas is an anti-climax. There's no build-up to the meeting. It's mostly misdirection and then a big upstaging, where all your hard effort fighting through Qunari is belittled and made futile by a blink of Mythal's eye.

 

It would have been better if the spies of the D.Wolf were fighting a rearguard action in parallel. You catch sight of them fighting around you or you come on the scene just after they escape and you're left to deal with the surviving Qunari. You chase the Qunari who are chasing the spies. At least there would be more of a connection to the payoff moment.

[AlanC9]

The end of Trespasser plays better if you find all the clues. Then there's no reveal because your Inquisitor has already figured it out.

[PsychoBlonde]

There was never any tension to the moment where you would meet Solas and find out what he was. From the end credit cutscene in the game we already know that Solas is the Dread Wolf. 

 

There wasn't supposed to be.  The question was finding out what the heck he was UP to, not WHO he was.

 

Why aren't you complaining that we knew who Corypheus was from the Legacy DLC, then?

 

Your bugging is inconsistent.

[Totally Not a Poodle]

The end credit scene should have not been so to the point. They could have still shown Solas killing Flemeth and doing the weird eyes thing. They could have still shown Solas and Flemeth doing the forehead touching. They just didn't have to have Flemeth call him what he is. They could have left that exact reveal until the DLC. I think that would have offered enough insentive for us to buy the DLC and find out what the hell is going on.

[Gervaise]

Actually if Flemeth was meant to be his "old friend", why didn't she call him "Solas"?   After all he claimed the name Fen'Harel or Dread Wolf that his enemies gave him and then he adopted to give his followers a boost, but Mythal was never his follower.    More to the point was him saying "I suspect you have questions" and then leading you by the nose as before so you only get to ask certain questions.    I'd have liked to have asked him what Mythal thought of his plan, since he admits he knows we met her.    I'd also liked to have asked precisely who was responsible for her murder and why?    Plus who he meant when talking about the Evanuris.   Was it just the Creators or the Forgotten Ones, or both?      So many questions that I wanted to ask and couldn't and then he didn't even answer the ones I did.   "Why does the world have to die?"   Can't tell you because spoilers.

[Sifr]

Also not everyone buys DLCs, so if you don't buy Trespasser you'll still have an idea of what's going on.

 

I can imagine those who never played Legacy in DA2 were probably confused by who Corypheus was meant to be either, whereas those who played Trespasser knew that he would return (save for a memorable few who denied his survival) at some point down the line.

 

Corypheus being the bad guy was surprising though, since I always saw the Elder One as being someone else who he was serving, the Darth Vader to another's Emperor. Having the Elder One turn out to actually have been the Nightmare in the Fade would have been better, since a lot of how those two joined forces was not precisely explored in any detail.

 

Or in addition to stealing the Orb and plans for the Anchor, he also appropriated the title of "Elder One" from Solas, who most definitely qualifies for that title as an Ancient Elf who's thousands of years old. Especially since we know that the Elves (both City Elves and the Dalish) refer to senior figures or leaders in their community as Hahren, a title which translates directly to "Elder".

 

Was there anything Corypheus didn't steal or otherwise plaigarise? He's the Thomas Edison of Thedas...

[thesuperdarkone2]

Ya, that reminds me of how I was a bit dumbfounded when Divine Viv allowed the College to exist.

It made sense for BW to do it for the franchise, but it made Viv the best choice for Divine since she is the total compromise with enough political cunning to play the Game and not be played by it. She also won't dissolve the faith like Leliana will with her throwing out traditions at a whim. However, she will be a public mage that will be seen as a traditionalist to the people (ignoring the fact she is a mage Divine) who is willing to work with the progressive mages.

She became the pro-mage, pro-Circle, and pro-Chantry candidate who will reasonably compromise on stuff.

(Feel like I have to add "imo" even if that should be obvious.)

Then how do you explain cass calling Viv a tyrant and be so disgusted by how Viv is abusing the chant that she leaves the exalted council

[Daerog]

Then how do you explain cass calling Viv a tyrant and be so disgusted by how Viv is abusing the chant that she leaves the exalted council

Never said Viv would be a good theologian or humble.

People differ in opinions, and those who really push their ideas on others will be called tyrants by the opposition. Lel could be called a tyrant that abuses the Chant as well if she was made Divine (personally think she is worst option). Cass can't handle politics and she can be easily played by other politicians, especially Orlesians.

Cass and Viv never got along in the first place and had a negative opinion from the beginning due to Viv being very political and Cass hating politics.

Cass is better off not being involved in politics and just focusing on Seeker stuff in my canon.

Of course I'm not entirely objective on this, since I just really like Viv's character. I liked Cassandra as well, but Viv fit so well with my canon Loyalist Inquisitor.

[Addictress]

The ending in the temple of Fen'Harel isn't about discovery. The tension in the ending is about confrontation.

[PCThug]

I agree but I can see why it happened, since DLC gets developed after the game is released and if the game/prior DLC had sold poorly, wouldn't have existed at all [Pours one out for the DA2 expansion].

[thesuperdarkone2]

Never said Viv would be a good theologian or humble.

People differ in opinions, and those who really push their ideas on others will be called tyrants by the opposition. Lel could be called a tyrant that abuses the Chant as well if she was made Divine (personally think she is worst option). Cass can't handle politics and she can be easily played by other politicians, especially Orlesians.

Cass and Viv never got along in the first place and had a negative opinion from the beginning due to Viv being very political and Cass hating politics.

Cass is better off not being involved in politics and just focusing on Seeker stuff in my canon.

Of course I'm not entirely objective on this, since I just really like Viv's character. I liked Cassandra as well, but Viv fit so well with my canon Loyalist Inquisitor.

Now you are just making stuff up. Have you actually seen their dialogue? The two got along well in the base game. Cass openly says that she's glad you recruited Vivienne at Skyhold. Also, practically all their dialogue is the two of them having mutual respect for each other. Read for yourself:http://dragonage.wik...aghast/Dialogue

 

Maybe it's just me, but a religious leader should be devout and humble, not some stuck up noble who just pays lip service to the religion.

 

Also, how is Leliana the worst?

[Daerog]

Now you are just making stuff up. Have you actually seen their dialogue? The two got along well in the base game. Cass openly says that she's glad you recruited Vivienne at Skyhold. Also, practically all their dialogue is the two of them having mutual respect for each other. Read for yourself:http://dragonage.wik...aghast/Dialogue

Maybe it's just me, but a religious leader should be devout and humble, not some stuck up noble who just pays lip service to the religion.

Also, how is Leliana the worst?

I guess my memory is getting faulty on in game stuff, it's been a while since I played last.

Humility is good, but wisdom and confidence in such an important leadership role that involves religion and state politics is just as, if not more, important. Viv can play at both, too. Whichever will get the job done, as Justinia would agree, since she did use her Left Hand for less than ideal missions.

I thought Viv was quite honest in her Andrastianism; I know of no evidence to the contrary. Also, Viv isn't a noble, she was the child of merchants who was given no advantage in the Circle, unlike some other mages who had family support, and went from bottom to top by her own strengths. She's also a very caring person, even if she seems like a ****** to some.

As for Lel, it's just my opinion since she came off as a radical that would cause more issues than Viv would, which I don't think the Chantry needs at that time. While a mage Divine is radical, it's not against doctrine (apparently), and Viv would be able to play it off. Also, a mage Divine who isn't a radical in other ways would do wonders for how mages are perceived, still dangerous but can be as faithful to the Chantry as anyone.

To tie it back on topic: It's not like who is Divine matters too much, since the epilogue to Trespasser sets Thedas up to generally be the same in all world states with the only differences being the details on how they became the same.

[BansheeOwnage]

The end credit scene should have not been so to the point. They could have still shown Solas killing Flemeth and doing the weird eyes thing. They could have still shown Solas and Flemeth doing the forehead touching. They just didn't have to have Flemeth call him what he is. They could have left that exact reveal until the DLC. I think that would have offered enough insentive for us to buy the DLC and find out what the hell is going on.

That could have worked. Also, if it did happen that way, you can bet that people would have been speculating about who Solas was, which member of the Pantheon, and I'm sure many would have figured that he was the Dread Wolf before Trespasser.

[Ski Mask Wei]

Take out the stinger and the twist would have been given away as soon as you went through the Eluvian in Trespasser.  It's just way too obvious with the murals and whatnot.  The only way I can think of doing it is if Solas came back to your party like everyone else and even then that's problematic.  

 

Anyway, the confrontation at the end had some nice suprises for the player even without that IMO.

[Fiskrens]

From Bioware's perspective, I'd say it was well played: it gave a lot of buildup for the coming DLCs. I remember it as a lot of speculation regarding Solas being Dread Wolf - something that seems obvious in hindsight but couldn't be until after Trespasser.

Solas simply disappearing after end of main game wouldn't have given the momentum anywhere near that. And as @BansheeOwnage says above, simply leaving out "old wolf" wouldn't have made much difference.

[Knight of Dane]

Non-player character connected scenes is something Bioware has always been terrible at. Zevran's introduction for example, you know an assassin is out for you whan you initially get that random encounter.

[veeia]

The ending in the temple of Fen'Harel isn't about discovery. The tension in the ending is about confrontation.

 

I agree. The reveal in the base game is exciting for the player but then becomes frustrating, because you want your character to be able to react to that information and process it.   Trespasser offers that, plus expands on his plans.

 

I think it's a well done reveal, because instead of having the 1-2 punch of Solas is the Dread Wolf- Solas will try to destroy the world I know, you get a sense of betrayal and confusion at first, and then when you're confronting him about it is when you learn the extent of his plans. I think it might feel a bit too back heavy if you didn't know going in. This way it gives them time to give it more emotional weight and draw out the relationship between Solas and Quizzie for the player, who instead of going "wtf??? he's who???" can go "okay what does this mean?"