1158 réponses à ce sujet

[Daerog]

As long as sovereign nations are able to both provide, protect, as well as contain their charges, I don't care if the Chantry never holds dominion over mages again.

Just saying, there is no need for an international institution to train mages now. They are at the mercy of nobles, like city elves.

The difference being that mages can provide more for the state than a mundane can.

It also means that mages are not necessarily free from annulments if the sovereign or local lord wishes it. Tranquility can still happen, too.

Various attitudes and various states/nations will make things a lot more diverse for mages, for good or ill. Ideal in some nations, possibly terrible in others. It could range from privileged citizens to mass Tranquility.

The Circle and College are not like the Wardens, who are necessary and keep secrets so they remain necessary. Nations can get other trainers, from Lucrosians to the Collective to apostates to magisters... or just local mages that are neither Circle or College.

[fhs33721]

I have to agree with the pro-templar crowd here to some degree. The circles are actually a solid idea in theory. However all the Dragon Age media makes it competely clear that it in no way works like it's actually is supposed to do.

In practice if you aren't a noble mage, whose rich daddy will cause the templars trouble if you are mistreated, there is a high possibility of you being f*cked (and that disturbingly quite literally in some cases). Protecting the general public from the dangers of magic is well and good but the templars throughout the games and other media abuse their power again and again making it apparent that the current system is far from working as intended because there are way too much murderhappy abusive jerks in the templars ranks.

 

Just a short list:

Wynnes student almost get's killed after trying to flee.

The templars are ready to punish the Amell or Suarana Warden with tranquility or death for helping Jowan, even if you were just doing it explicitly on Irvings request.

They also once killed some random chasind woman just because she might be a witch of the wilds.

Cole states that beatings and rape were common in the white Spire.

Speaking of Cole the templars let the original one starve in the Dungeon and then coverd it up, and then had a demonic-Cole spirit killing more mages in the dungeons without ever doing anything about that. Great.

 

And then there is the whole awful hellhole that was the Gallows in Kirkwall which:

An extremist knight commader that absolutely hates mages and was was already a cruel tyrant before she started to go down the slippery slope towards complete paranoid, genocidal insanity due to lyrium induced madness.

Regular beatings for crimes as simple as speaking to a stranger in the courtyard.

A second in command with lovley opinions like: "Mages can not be treated like people."

Multiple rapists in the higher positions of the command structure, one of which isn't content with raping alone but also illegaly uses the rite of tranquility on his victims first.

Draconian punishments doled out for extremely minor offenses like writing letters to your girlfriend you had before joining the circle.

And then Meredith basiclly usurped the position of the Vicomte, blocked all attempts to vote a new one and established a brutal regime where her templar death squads were even harassing the normal people templars are supposedly meant to protect.

And to top it all off when a completely unafilliated third party blew up the chantry they decided to "LOL. Let's kill all the circle mages instead of the one apostate actually responisble."

 

Now be honest, does this soud like a boarding school you would be confortable to send your kids to?

[Apollexander]

For me, the following reasons made me stand with mages:

In DAO, I could save some mages without any price. If I stood with templars I just let some mages be killed: no good for me.

In DA2, the same. Why not save some innocent mages instead of killing all? They would not turn into abominations after the end of DA2.

In DAI, time traveling is cool! And I don't want Fiona to die.

Generally, there would be little harm to stand with mages. Sometimes I even felt guilty to support the templars.

For example, if in DAO I saved the mages and most of them turned into abominations killing Cullen, then it would be better to stand with the templars.

[Lord of War]

I have to agree with the pro-templar crowd here to some degree. The circles are actually a solid idea in theory. However all the Dragon Age media makes it competely clear that it in no way works like it's actually is supposed to do.

In practice if you aren't a noble mage, whose rich daddy will cause the templars trouble if you are mistreated, there is a high possibility of you being f*cked (and that disturbingly quite literally in some cases). Protecting the general public from the dangers of magic is well and good but the templars throughout the games and other media abuse their power again and again making it apparent that the current system is far from working as intended because there are way too much murderhappy abusive jerks in the templars ranks.

 

Just a short list:

Wynnes student almost get's killed after trying to flee.

The templars are ready to punish the Amell or Suarana Warden with tranquility or death for helping Jowan, even if you were just doing it explicitly on Irvings request.

They also once killed some random chasind woman just because she might be a witch of the wilds.

Cole states that beatings and rape were common in the white Spire.

Speaking of Cole the templars let the original one starve in the Dungeon and then coverd it up, and then had a demonic-Cole spirit killing more mages in the dungeons without ever doing anything about that. Great.

 

And then there is the whole awful hellhole that was the Gallows in Kirkwall which:

An extremist knight commader that absolutely hates mages and was was already a cruel tyrant before she started to go down the slippery slope towards complete paranoid, genocidal insanity due to lyrium induced madness.

Regular beatings for crimes as simple as speaking to a stranger in the courtyard.

A second in command with lovley opinions like: "Mages can not be treated like people."

Multiple rapists in the higher positions of the command structure, one of which isn't content with raping alone but also illegaly uses the rite of tranquility on his victims first.

Draconian punishments doled out for extremely minor offenses like writing letters to your girlfriend you had before joining the circle.

And then Meredith basiclly usurped the position of the Vicomte, blocked all attempts to vote a new one and established a brutal regime where her templar death squads were even harassing the normal people templars are supposedly meant to protect.

And to top it all off when a completely unafilliated third party blew up the chantry they decided to "LOL. Let's kill all the circle mages instead of the one apostate actually responisble."

 

Now be honest, does this soud like a boarding school you would be confortable to send your kids to?

 

Seriously. The Circles weren't Hogwarts, and the Templars need to be dissolved and replaced (I'd like their leaders to be put on trial too, but I suppose being turned into red lyrium monsters was good enough). Mages need to be trained, but in way where they can keep their autonomy and personhood, away from from the Chantry's gang of brutal, fanatical thugs.

[raging_monkey]

Agreed

[Hellion Rex]

Seriously. The Circles weren't Hogwarts, and the Templars need to be dissolved and replaced (I'd like their leaders to be put on trial too, but I suppose being turned into red lyrium monsters was good enough). Mages need to be trained, but in way where they can keep their autonomy and personhood, away from from the Chantry's gang of brutal, fanatical thugs.

Pretty sure all the old guard's been whacked anyways, either through death at Theirinfall or getting blown up at the Conclave. Also pretty sure that the corrupted ones killed a Knight Divine at Theirinfall to boot.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Pretty sure all the old guard's been whacked anyways, either through death at Theirinfall or getting blown up at the Conclave. Also pretty sure that the corrupted ones killed a Knight Divine at Theirinfall to boot.

The Templar complaining about not hunting mages at Therinfal, the Templar complaining to Cassandra, and the silver shield say otherwise

[Hellion Rex]

The Templar complaining about not hunting mages at Therinfal, the Templar complaining to Cassandra, and the silver shield say otherwise

Ok. Want a cookie or something?

[MisterJB]

Now, the next item on the agenda, we have discovered corrupt guards and thus, the only proper response is to dismantle the entire police force of our nation.

Yes, they provide a needed service and a career path for many young men and women and yes, the vast majority of them are decent, hard working folk but...actually, I can't think of a reason justifying this decision.

[Hellion Rex]

I do think we need to work on Templar recruiting practices and make that a priority for the new system, whatever you want to call it.

[Lord of War]

Now, the next item on the agenda, we have discovered corrupt guards and thus, the only proper response is to dismantle the entire police force of our nation.

Yes, they provide a needed service and a career path for many young men and women and yes, the vast majority of them are decent, hard working folk but...actually, I can't think of a reason justifying this decision.

 

That's not a fair comparison, and you have to realize that. Did you not read that list of crimes and atrocities perpetuated by the Templars? It looks less like a bunch of isolated incidents and more like a modus operandi. It's like when the Roman emperors or Ottoman Sultans looked at their Preatorians and Janissaries and their long history of coups and assassinations, and finally saying enough is enough and getting rid of them. At some point, a group's ideology becomes too toxic to ignore, and the Templars reached that point handily.

 

Just like getting rid of the Preatorians didn't mean the emperors weren't protected, though, getting rid of the Templars doesn't mean the mages won't have protection, they'll just have something new and better.

[Daerog]

Across all of Thedas, the crimes reported are not common. Police have been in the pockets of criminal gangs, used as hitmen, extorted money, acted as guards for drug cartels, etc. Still, we don't remove the system because members are not following it, it just needs to clean house and have the support to do so.

However, Lord Seekers really messed the Templars up and prevented reforms. Now that they are gone, maybe neeed reforms will.... wait, what's the point now? Mage schools are now the burden of the various nations, they can make their own magic police.

[Catilina]

Most people think: the mages connected with crime and destruction. What about Meredith for example? What about the templars... especially the red ones? The lunatics are dangerous, whose have power is in their hands, and who want more power... Everyone has this "potential" ... 

[Daerog]

..., away from from the Chantry's gang of brutal, fanatical thugs.

And into the hands of local, brutal, fanatical thugs. It'd probably have been easier to fix the Templars rather than possibly fixing various scenarios across Thedas now that a popular, international institution is all "hands off" in dealing with mages. It'd probably be easier to set up their own Templar orders, just to not solely depend on mages policing mages.

[Daerog]

Most people think: the mages connected with crime and destruction. What about Meredith for example? What about the templars... especially the red ones? The lunatics are dangerous, whose have power is in their hands, and who want more power... Everyone has this "potential" ...

Yes, desire for power is dangerous. Mages have greater potential for destruction starting at the age of 10, can raise corpse armies, can force others to be possessed by demons, can control minds, and so many other things that Templars can't do.

Templars, or Red Templars, can mutate themselves, force mutations on others, and kill and enslave.... all these things mages can do, too.


Everyone has potential, but Superman has more potential than Steve Trevor to do stuff and is harder to contain. (For Marvel fans, maybe comparing Scarlet Witch or Dr Strange with Black Panther would be better? Not very knowledgeable on Marvel.)

[Sah291]

Now, the next item on the agenda, we have discovered corrupt guards and thus, the only proper response is to dismantle the entire police force of our nation.
Yes, they provide a needed service and a career path for many young men and women and yes, the vast majority of them are decent, hard working folk but...actually, I can't think of a reason justifying this decision.

They aren't a police force, though, they are a religious military order. Hunting down violent blood mage cultists and the like, okay... but is their job really meant to be guarding regular mages all day? During peace time? That is way overkill.

Maybe the order doesn't need to be quite so big, or maybe they could branch out and do other things with their resources and time, such as run businesses or charity work, like real life Templars actually did.

In fact, it creates a lot of civil unrest when a military order loses its purpose and sticks around as a standing army that can act above the law. The real Knights Templar suffered for it greatly, there was a huge backlash, with Templars getting arrested and burned at the stake, and accused of devil worship, etc.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I wonder how people react to the fact that mages are doing just fine without Templars in divine leliana's world state

[Hellion Rex]

I wonder how people react to the fact that mages are doing just fine without Templars in divine leliana's world state

We will see. Still think it's an accident waiting to happen.

[thesuperdarkone2]

They aren't a police force, though, they are a religious military order. Hunting down violent blood mage cultists and the like, okay... but is their job really meant to be guarding regular mages all day? During peace time? That is way overkill.

Maybe the order doesn't need to be quite so big, or maybe they could branch out and do other things with their resources and time, such as run businesses or charity work, like real life Templars actually did.

In fact, it creates a lot of civil unrest when a military order loses its purpose and sticks around as a standing army that can act above the law. The real Knights Templar suffered for it greatly, there was a huge backlash, with Templars getting arrested and burned at the stake, and accused of devil worship, etc.

Which makes it funny that trespasser pretty much says the inquisition was doing the magic fighting job that the Templars do without being assholes.

Heck, if you have peacekeeper inquisition, you don't need Templars.

[Hellion Rex]

Yes, desire for power is dangerous. Mages have greater potential for destruction starting at the age of 10, can raise corpse armies, can force others to be possessed by demons, can control minds, and so many other things that Templars can't do.

Templars, or Red Templars, can mutate themselves, force mutations on others, and kill and enslave.... all these things mages can do, too.


Everyone has potential, but Superman has more potential than Steve Trevor to do stuff and is harder to contain. (For Marvel fans, maybe comparing Scarlet Witch or Dr Strange with Black Panther would be better? Not very knowledgeable on Marvel.)

Scarlet Witch would certainly be applicable, in my opinion.

[thesuperdarkone2]

We will see. Still think it's an accident waiting to happen.

And if it turns out just fine? Evidence is proving Mage freedom is working

[thesuperdarkone2]

Scarlet Witch would certainly be applicable, in my opinion.

Funny considering the pro reg side is pretty much the wrong side in the movie

[Asdrubael Vect]

I wonder how people react to the fact that mages are doing just fine without Templars in divine leliana's world state

They was fine for more than 8000 years without Seekers  useless drug addicted fanatical creation as Templars who can do a thing agains real magic problems as deamons, blood magic, they can only kill kids and chantry circle mages who was not really trained as was have unnatural fear cos of propoganda

 

Even Seekers know that noone was ever need Templars as Chantry types of Circle, and they never exist for any other reason as Seekers magic monopoly as political controll throught having mages, even rulers of kingdoms(even Orlais as Ferelden ones, i am not even talking about Nevarrans and Rivainians as Anderfels ones) as nobles wanted mages support rather than tempalrs

 

Templars as Orlais Chantry controll was achived cos of propoganda and killing of any(as other andrastians who believed in original and older versions of Chant of Light, not new oned of Orlais what was chanded cos of Seekers) who oppose Seekers will

[Daerog]

I wonder how people react to the fact that mages are doing just fine without Templars in divine leliana's world state

It doesn't matter who the Divine is, the world will have the same starting point when we go back south.

The only people who can get pissed off are the clergy and nobility. Grumbling mages will end up setting up the College or Circle just to spite their opposite. There are mages who prefer the Circle over the College.

The writer's can make all the nations, people, and faiths love magic if they wish. They can make all the nations love the Circle and College without taking the advantage of the Chantry no longer protecting the various Towers. They can remove the threat of possession and mind control.

However, that is boring with no tension and I like the story of mages being powerful but living perilous lives due to their power.

After a game, the writer's almost seem desperate to make magic and mages dangerous again, so I think they want to keep the danger, too.

[Hellion Rex]

Funny considering the pro reg side is pretty much the wrong side in the movie

Hardly. They still have very valid points, even though I don't agree with their overall stance. That said, she did screw up in the movie, creating a lot of reasonable fear of her. And I say this as a major Wanda fan.