1158 réponses à ce sujet

[Daerog]

They was fine for more than 8000 years without Seekers  useless drug addicted fanatical creation as Templars who can do a thing agains real magic problems as deamons, blood magic, they can only kill kids and mages who was not really trained as was have unnatural fear cos of propoganda
 
Even Seekers know that noone was ever need Templars as Chantry types of Circle, and they never exist for any other reason as Seekers magic monopoly as political controll throught having mages, even rulers of kingdoms(even Orlais as Ferelden ones, i am not even talking about Nevarrans and Rivainians as Anderfels ones) as nobles wanted mages support rather than tempalrs
 
Templars as Orlais Chantry controll was achived cos of propoganda and killing of any(as other andrastians who believed in original and older versions of Chant of Light, not new oned of Orlais what was chanded cos of Seekers) who oppose Seekers will

Before the Seekers, the people that weren't barbaric clans were ruled over by mage dictators that fought for more power, be it Tevinter or the elves.

Then the Blight happens, Andraste happens, then Inquisition, then the Chantry. So, the Inquisition that would become the Seekers were before the Chantry and they had little to no Chantry oversight when they became the Seekers. Only then could nations not dominated by mages rise up.

Only in Tevinter could mundanes and mages have equal opportunities, but that was by force after slaughtering the competition, and it was short lived because how much mightier mages are. It is might makes right there. It is a system that works, but it isn't ideal.

[Daerog]

They aren't a police force, though, they are a religious military order. Hunting down violent blood mage cultists and the like, okay... but is their job really meant to be guarding regular mages all day? During peace time? That is way overkill.
Maybe the order doesn't need to be quite so big, or maybe they could branch out and do other things with their resources and time, such as run businesses or charity work, like real life Templars actually did.
In fact, it creates a lot of civil unrest when a military order loses its purpose and sticks around as a standing army that can act above the law. The real Knights Templar suffered for it greatly, there was a huge backlash, with Templars getting arrested and burned at the stake, and accused of devil worship, etc.

The Templar Order isn't that big, compared to how much area they need to care for.

They are meant to be a peacekeeping force that guards mage criminals and civilians and mundanes.

On a side note, I wonder if BW will have any quests related to the Aeonar being found empty after DAI. You'd think the Templars would have killed some of the more dangerous criminals, but there were no signs of violence. I can only imagine it like if Arkham Asylum removed its guards and doctors and left all the doors unlocked.

[Voidinist]

And if it turns out just fine? Evidence is proving Mage freedom is working

 

Who is saying that mage freedom can't work? Tevinter technically "works". The magicless are just significantly worse off without Templars that actually nullify magic and Circles that isolate the mages from the rest of society. Complete mage autonomy + no real Templars at all just means that mundanes have to cope without these safeguards just for some abstract ideal of sentient humanoid bombs living with more comfort and power with the defenseless.

 

And what evidence are you talking about? That mage freedom is better than Circles? Two whole years of no knowledge on how the College operated, what the abomination/maleficarum/casualty rates were, etc. all to be swept under the rug by Vivienne's Circle and we still don't know how the Circle and the College operate together. "For the moment, it appears to be working - mages are enjoying unprecedented acceptance throughout Thedas," isn't evidence. It straight up tells you it's momentary. Trespasser makes it even clearer it's momentary.

[fhs33721]

Now, the next item on the agenda, we have discovered corrupt guards and thus, the only proper response is to dismantle the entire police force of our nation.

Yes, they provide a needed service and a career path for many young men and women and yes, the vast majority of them are decent, hard working folk but...actually, I can't think of a reason justifying this decision.

How about instead we just throw out the actual rapists, sadists and murderers from the templars rank? Oh wait, those are also the ones that seem to be getting most of  the the leadership positions. And nobody was doing anything about this kind of cr*p for at least decades. Instead the ones against this kind of treatment were bullied into shutting up by the higher ups as Cole states. But before the mage templar war happened nobody was doing anything about these occurences. In your analogy that would be like discovering corrupt guards and then doing absolutely nothing.

And the seekers who were specifically tasked to keep the templars in line if they got overboard didn't do **** about anything either. Instead  they were apparently commanded by the same kind of nutjobs than the templar leadership because they basically just shrugged and looked the other way during all those occurences of templars abusig their powers and were also perfectly fine with letting Meredith pull off her downright horrifying bullsh*t for years.

 

But no clearly the system doesn't not need any sort of reform. Just keep everything the way it is. Everything is fine, since the vast majority of templars are hard working decent folk. The mages just don't appreciate how good they have it compared to everyone else. They live in relative comfort, have free education and a war meal every day (unless they are thrown into the dungeon and starve to death because the templars forget them of course) and all they have to worry about in return is potentially being raped, beaten, lobotomized or executed by people who can easily get away with all of these without repercussions. And they really are upset about this. Such crybabies.

[thesuperdarkone2]

How about instead we just throw out the actual rapists, sadists and murderers from the templars rank? Oh wait, those are also the ones that seem to be getting most of the the leadership positions. And nobody was doing anything about this kind of cr*p for at least decades. Instead the ones against this kind of treatment were bullied into shutting up by the higher ups as Cole states. But before the mage templar war happened nobody was doing anything about these occurences. In your analogy that would be like discovering corrupt guards and then doing absolutely nothing.
And the seekers who were specifically tasked to keep the templars in line if they got overboard didn't do **** about anything either. Instead they were apparently commanded by the same kind of nutjobs than the templar leadership because they basically just shrugged and looked the other way during all those occurences of templars abusig their powers and were also perfectly fine with letting Meredith pull off her downright horrifying bullsh*t for years.

But no clearly the system doesn't not need any sort of reform. Just keep everything the way it is. Everything is fine, since the vast majority of templars are hard working decent folk. The mages just don't appreciate how good they have it compared to everyone else. They live in relative comfort, have free education and a war meal every day (unless they are thrown into the dungeon and starve to death because the templars forget them of course) and all they have to worry about in return is potentially being raped, beaten, lobotomized or executed by people who can easily get away with all of these without repercussions. And they really are upset about this. Such crybabies.

Guess they never heard of a gilded cage. Plus, I bet beating up pregnant women is ok because because they are mages

[Asdrubael Vect]

Before the Seekers, the people that weren't barbaric clans were ruled over by mage dictators that fought for more power, be it Tevinter or the elves.

Then the Blight happens, Andraste happens, then Inquisition, then the Chantry. So, the Inquisition that would become the Seekers were before the Chantry and they had little to no Chantry oversight when they became the Seekers. Only then could nations not dominated by mages rise up.

Only in Tevinter could mundanes and mages have equal opportunities, but that was by force after slaughtering the competition, and it was short lived because how much mightier mages are. It is might makes right there. It is a system that works, but it isn't ideal.

Inquisition was created after some years after Hessarian was die and most of the continent was Andrastian cos of Tevinter, it already have kingdoms and south have it too, many lands with minor kingdoms was just conquered by Orlais when blight happened and some when Qunari invade...and yeah Inquisition was do things on south not in andrastion Tevinter lands with Hessarian reforms, as we know interestion things about Inquisition and that they was not really Andrastians, they was like Grey Wardens just agains deamons and dangerous dragon worshipers blood magic cultist

 

Seekers was a part of Inquisition what was commanded by mages, most lord Inquistiors was experienced mages before Ameridan and Seekers was lesser part of Inquisition as their creation was need magic rituals with spirit possesion, they was created by mages as grey wardens via their blood magic ritual.

 

Oralis Chantry what was before Seekers was die with Draccon 1 as Ameridan as we can understand with many high ranking Inquisition members what was mages...they could die where blight happen and seekers could help them die cos this is explanation why just after 2 blight was started all tis anti mages and anti heretics propoganda as wars with elves and others bad things, alianages, Circles of mages as concentration as camps,  Inquisitor Ameridan was rewritten as many religious texts what was connected with Shertan and other things, Seekers with their puppets as Orlais Chantry and their templars puppets was start to do crap after second biight, draccon 1 death, Ameridan as mages extinction as when Inquisition disbaned and become Seekers and their created Templars jailors of mages

[Beerfish]

The difficulty in all this is trying to get valid and unbiased views of the results of the wide range of suggestions we have heard on this topic as far as reform is concerned. And as usual the one stake holder in all of this that rarely gets talked about is always going to be the driver of what happens in the future.  That being the general populace that are not mages or templars or chantry or tevinter.

 

People that heartily support mages totally downplay any negatives to the general populace and the mages themselves if they get major freedom in reforms.  Templar supporters can take the opposite tact.  In the long run how this situation is shaped depends on the general populace.

[Daerog]

Compared to elves and peasants (like Tevinters peasantry), mages do live better lives and can be carefree, as has been seen with different mages in the various mediums of Dragon Age stories.

Reforms were needed and were coming, but the Lord Seekers, who had no Chantry oversight, slowed the reforms down and the war just ended the thing.

There were higher up Templars that disapproved of the evil Templars, but without a flood of recruits, it's not easy to replace corrupt senior templars.

Let's not forget that mage officials can also be corrupt and harm innocents. First Enchanter Remille for instance. First Enchanter Orsino for another. There is also Uldred and, depending on your view, Grand Enchanter Fiona.

Still, no issue on my end when slaying the Templars in Kirkwall (mages, too...), but with the knowledge of ways for mundanes to fight mages, Templars are not going away, they will just take different shapes.

[Sah291]

The Templar Order isn't that big, compared to how much area they need to care for.
They are meant to be a peacekeeping force that guards mage criminals and civilians and mundanes.
On a side note, I wonder if BW will have any quests related to the Aeonar being found empty after DAI. You'd think the Templars would have killed some of the more dangerous criminals, but there were no signs of violence. I can only imagine it like if Arkham Asylum removed its guards and doctors and left all the doors unlocked.

They are bigger than they probably need to be, if the circle system is outright changed or dissolved. That just means they recruit fewer people and refocus their efforts on targeted groups like the Venatori.

But that's just the issue isn't it? All mages are still treated as war criminals, long after the Andrastian war for independence, and it is as if they still consider themselves to be at war with mages/magic, hence the need for the standing army.

That won't likely change unless the Chantry decides to ever decriminalize magic and grant asylum to Southern mages.

[Daerog]

The difficulty in all this is trying to get valid and unbiased views of the results of the wide range of suggestions we have heard on this topic as far as reform is concerned. And as usual the one stake holder in all of this that rarely gets talked about is always going to be the driver of what happens in the future.  That being the general populace that are not mages or templars or chantry or tevinter.
 
People that heartily support mages totally downplay any negatives to the general populace and the mages themselves if they get major freedom in reforms.  Templar supporters can take the opposite tact.  In the long run how this situation is shaped depends on the general populace.

Well, before they had no means to counter their mage overlords, but now there is more knowledge of how mundanes can counter mages. So, it's up in the air, maybe.

Actually, it is just going to depend on the moods of the writers, but the back and forth is still fun.

[Steelcan]

How about instead we just throw out the actual rapists, sadists and murderers from the templars rank? Oh wait, those are also the ones that seem to be getting most of  the the leadership positions. And nobody was doing anything about this kind of cr*p for at least decades. Instead the ones against this kind of treatment were bullied into shutting up by the higher ups as Cole states. But before the mage templar war happened nobody was doing anything about these occurences. In your analogy that would be like discovering corrupt guards and then doing absolutely nothing.

And the seekers who were specifically tasked to keep the templars in line if they got overboard didn't do **** about anything either. Instead  they were apparently commanded by the same kind of nutjobs than the templar leadership because they basically just shrugged and looked the other way during all those occurences of templars abusig their powers and were also perfectly fine with letting Meredith pull off her downright horrifying bullsh*t for years.

 

But no clearly the system doesn't not need any sort of reform. Just keep everything the way it is. Everything is fine, since the vast majority of templars are hard working decent folk. The mages just don't appreciate how good they have it compared to everyone else. They live in relative comfort, have free education and a war meal every day (unless they are thrown into the dungeon and starve to death because the templars forget them of course) and all they have to worry about in return is potentially being raped, beaten, lobotomized or executed by people who can easily get away with all of these without repercussions. And they really are upset about this. Such crybabies.

please point out where any of us have said that the current system is 100% perfect

 

I'll wait

[thesuperdarkone2]

Compared to elves and peasants (like Tevinters peasantry), mages do live better lives and can be carefree, as has been seen with different mages in the various mediums of Dragon Age stories.

Reforms were needed and were coming, but the Lord Seekers, who had no Chantry oversight, slowed the reforms down and the war just ended the thing.

There were higher up Templars that disapproved of the evil Templars, but without a flood of recruits, it's not easy to replace corrupt senior templars.

Let's not forget that mage officials can also be corrupt and harm innocents. First Enchanter Remille for instance. First Enchanter Orsino for another. There is also Uldred and, depending on your view, Grand Enchanter Fiona.

Still, no issue on my end when slaying the Templars in Kirkwall (mages, too...), but with the knowledge of ways for mundanes to fight mages, Templars are not going away, they will just take different shapes.

Magehunter pretty much says there are ways for nontemplars to fight mages

[Steelcan]

They are bigger than they probably need to be, if the circle system is outright changed or dissolved. That just means they recruit fewer people and refocus their efforts on targeted groups like the Venatori.

But that's just the issue isn't it? All mages are still treated as war criminals, long after the Andrastian war for independence, and it is as if they still consider themselves to be at war with mages/magic, hence the need for the standing army.

That won't likely change unless the Chantry decides to ever decriminalize magic and grant asylum to Southern mages.

there are far too few templars to be considered a true standing army, remember they can't actually go up against entire nations like Ferelden even after it was weakened by a Blight.

 

And furthermore given the current situation with the elves, Tevinter, and Qunari, trained anti-magic soldiers are going to be needed more than ever

[Bayonet Hipshot]

It kind of predictably devolved into that, but the OP is still, at least to me, a fresh idea. Where is the narrative that gives players a reason to want to support the Templars?

 

Going to the Templars was the only sensible solution for the Herald and the Inquisition if you are roleplaying and not rollplaying. 

 

So here's the rundown of the situation:-

 

The Inquisition team went to Val Royeaux. There they saw the Templars behaving like jerks to the Chantry's clerics and received invitation from the leader of Rebel Mages to meet in Redcliffe.

 

You reach Redcliffe only to find the Rebel Mages enslaved to a Tevinter Magister who has also ousted the ruler of Redcliffe from the castle. Worse still you discover a new, volatile and dangerous form of magic at work called time magic.

 

You return to Skyhold to either go to the Mages or Templars. This is the point of no return.

 

At that point in time, this was the mission of the Inquisition:-

 

Enlist the aid of either the Rebel Mages or the Templars in order to power the Mark or weaken the magic around the Breach to close off the Breach permanently. There was a job and we had to do it and that job did not involve playing hero.

 

Why going to Templars is the logical option:-

 

At that time, Alexius had the upper hand and had outplayed us. In response, we supposedly send the Herald, the singular person with the power to seal rifts, as bait as well as bringing along some notable Inquisition members while Leliana and her agents carry out a raid of some form on the castle. That is an extremely risky plan and there was so many ways for it to go wrong. Remember, we are roleplaying here, not rollplaying, so we do not know that the Herald, Leliana, Leliana's agents and our companions will succeed in the end. What we do know is that we have a really risky plan with no back ups and we could be killed. By contrast, at the time, going to the Templars involved bringing some nobles with you to force negotiations. Far less chance of loss of life or bloodshed.

 

Secondly, the goal was to get people to help the Inquisition to seal the Breach. At that time in the game, the Inquisition was a fledgling organization. Playing hero and meddling in affairs concerning the Ferelden monarchy and possibly the Tevinter magisterium was also highly risky given that we had very little legitimacy at that point. By contrast, going to gain the Templar's assistance, either via conscription or alliance, involve using 10 Orlesian noble houses which gives the fledgling Inquisition much needed legitimacy and is not going to cause any diplomatic incident since the Templar Order was an independent organization at that point.

 

TL;DR:-

 

At that point in the game, going the Mage path involves a very risky plan that can to terribly wrong in so many ways including the possible death of the Herald as well as notable Inquisition people and risks causing a diplomatic or a political incident. On the other hand, at that point in the game, going the Templar path does not involve any risky plans and grants the Inquisition much needed boost in political support and legitimacy.

[Steelcan]

Magehunter pretty much says there are ways for nontemplars to fight mages

and there are ways for non-biotics to fight biotics in ME, doesn't mean that biotics aren't inherently more powerful

[Gervaise]

To be honest the abuses by the Templars of their charges are pretty much the same as the nobility out in the main community, probably because the Templars at the top of the tree are largely the cast off extra children from noble households, so they think they are entitled to act in the Circles in exactly the same way they did out in the community.    They are able to get away with it because it would seem they confine their abuse to those mages who are commoners and therefore cut off from the families the moment they enter the Circle.   So unless they suck up to the First Enchanter or get some noble patronage (like Vivienne) they have no one to look out for them and question what is going on.   By contrast the children of the nobility are allowed to keep in touch with their families (if they so wish) and their parents can pay for them to have extra comforts, hand picked Templars (likely their own relatives) to look after them, etc.  

 

Not that it is any better out in the community.   Chevaliers and other nobles abuse their power, as do City Guards, who are also normally drawn from the dregs of the nobility.   If the Chantry really did its duty regarding to teaching of the Maker, then it would take those in power to task over their abuses, but the fact is they do not because many of those in leading positions in the Chantry are also from the nobility.    Even a supposed good Guard Captain like Aveline ignored "rumours" that one of her guards had raped an elf girl, until her brothers decided to take the law into their own hands; pretty hypocritical when you think about it considering how much vigilante justice her friend Hawke dispensed but there you go, that is Thedas for you.  

 

My take on the Circles as they were was that the nobility in the south didn't want to risk losing their positions of privilege to upstart peasants defended by commoner mages.    May be if mages are allowed to mix more with the community, it will have the effect of the ordinary folk mistrusting them less and those in power not able to abuse the general populace quite as freely as they did because the mage members of the community will be effective in protecting them.

[Beerfish]

Well, before they had no means to counter their mage overlords, but now there is more knowledge of how mundanes can counter mages. So, it's up in the air, maybe.

Actually, it is just going to depend on the moods of the writers, but the back and forth is still fun.

Most mundanes can't counter mages at all.  This being mages that are by choice malevolent or good people that can't handle being a mage and being possessed.  Since general populations can be victims of levels of hysteria all it takes is for one mage to rub out a village to create all sorts of bad consequences to every mage.

 

If a populace experience with mages has been that they are kind and are healers and do all sorts of things they'll get support and sympathy, if they go the other way then there can easily be go totally the other way into witch hunts as has happened a number of time sin history.

[Daerog]

They are bigger than they probably need to be, if the circle system is outright changed or dissolved. That just means they recruit fewer people and refocus their efforts on targeted groups like the Venatori.
But that's just the issue isn't it? All mages are still treated as war criminals, long after the Andrastian war for independence, and it is as if they still consider themselves to be at war with mages/magic, hence the need for the standing army.
That won't likely change unless the Chantry decides to ever decriminalize magic and grant asylum to Southern mages.

Magic isn't a crime. The Circle does a lot of business with magic that the Chantry doesn't see a penny on. Only unsanctioned schools are a crime.

The Chantry was moving toward reform, which the Seekers, Templars, and mages interfered and ruined.

It isn't against Chantry doctrine for a mage to be clergy, it seems. Mages are just prohibited from holding a governing position over mundanes. That is what the Chantry teaches.

As for the practical rules concerning the Circle, ya, they had to live in the Towers and such. Such things could change without opposing the Chantry, but they were set up for practical reasons that need to be brought up if those rules are to change.

Not that it matters after the war. The Chantry is no longer overseeing the Circle or College, and if that's the case, then they don't need the Templars, anymore... or lyrium.

The questions are: who will host these groups and what restrictions will they have under their various hosts. Also, there is no monopoly anymore, different groups can start popping up now, be they magic schools or anti-magic mercs.

Not meaning to say this is terrible or great, but I will be disappointed if these options that are now possible are not addressed.

[Catilina]

[...]„Playing hero and meddling in affairs concerning the Ferelden monarchy and possibly the Tevinter magisterium was also highly risky given that we had very little legitimacy at that point. ”[...] 

Medling in affairs of Monarchies/States without legitimacy are fun. Big fun.

Risky: fun. Templars: sucks.

 

My Inquisitors are mages, then they trust in mages, not in the templars. I have a moderated Andrastian noble ex-Circle mage, who hated the life in the circle, a Dalish, who belive in elf pantheon, and do not belive in the Circle-system, and a Qunari "apostate"

 

Now seriously: Why they should choose the Templars (role-playing point of view)? (I know some good arguments beside choose templars, but I will tell if I will sided at templars...)

[Daerog]

Magehunter pretty much says there are ways for nontemplars to fight mages

Haven't read it. Hope it's good. Maybe I'll pick it up when it's done and in collected editions.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Magic isn't a crime. The Circle does a lot of business with magic that the Chantry doesn't see a penny on. Only unsanctioned schools are a crime.

The Chantry was moving toward reform, which the Seekers, Templars, and mages interfered and ruined.

It isn't against Chantry doctrine for a mage to be clergy, it seems. Mages are just prohibited from holding a governing position over mundanes. That is what the Chantry teaches.

As for the practical rules concerning the Circle, ya, they had to live in the Towers and such. Such things could change without opposing the Chantry, but they were set up for practical reasons that need to be brought up if those rules are to change.

Not that it matters after the war. The Chantry is no longer overseeing the Circle or College, and if that's the case, then they don't need the Templars, anymore... or lyrium.

The questions are: who will host these groups and what restrictions will they have under their various hosts. Also, there is no monopoly anymore, different groups can start popping up now, be they magic schools or anti-magic mercs.

Not meaning to say this is terrible or great, but I will be disappointed if these options that are now possible are not addressed.

Did you forget that the chantry still runs the circles under divine cass and Viv?

[Daerog]

Medling in affairs of Monarchies/States without legitimacy are fun. Big fun.
Risky: fun. Templars: sucks. (My Inquisitors are mages, then they trust in mages, not in the templars.)

Ya, PCs have great fun with power trips and little consequence. Games are meant to be fun, afterall.

I like playing a mage, too. Except in DA2. I'm a bit disappointed that game experience is not the same as what the lore suggests when living as a mage, but it has to be a game and there are limits to it.

While I get being a mage that distrusts Templars, I found it pretty cool to be a mage who promotes Ser Barris to Knight Commander after his exemplary conduct in the various table missions he has, protecting innocent mages and civilians while dealing with villianous mages and demons. Certainly one of the best parts in my canon.

[Sah291]

there are far too few templars to be considered a true standing army, remember they can't actually go up against entire nations like Ferelden even after it was weakened by a Blight.

And furthermore given the current situation with the elves, Tevinter, and Qunari, trained anti-magic soldiers are going to be needed more than ever

They may not have the numbers to go up against another nation alone, but this is what their role really is, which is important to distinguish from other civil institutions (like the City Guard).

They are supposed to be a highly trained military order, who specialize in anti magic. Not a civilian police force.

@Daerog,

Magic is very much still a crime, if all mages are under military guard, regardless of having committed any actual crimes or not.

[Catilina]

Ya, PCs have great fun with power trips and little consequence. Games are meant to be fun, afterall.

I like playing a mage, too. Except in DA2. I'm a bit disappointed that game experience is not the same as what the lore suggests when living as a mage, but it has to be a game and there are limits to it.

While I get being a mage that distrusts Templars, I found it pretty cool to be a mage who promotes Ser Barris to Knight Commander after his exemplary conduct in the various table missions he has, protecting innocent mages and civilians while dealing with villianous mages and demons. Certainly one of the best parts in my canon.

After all, you can imagine (as blood mage Hawke also possible), but I really do not like. Yet. Maybe later.

 

(I like playing with mage Hawke in DA2 too, and I prefer Carver...)

[Lulupab]

There is simply no battle in history that none-mages won versus mages without Templars or their own magic. So its laughable when people think mobs can actually attack and take over a circle.