Didn't say it was admirable, but it really isn't surprising, is it? Serve the Magister or be turned right back in to the Chantry (or something close enough). Tevinter is more powerful than the Inquisition, and is far less liable to make them all Tranquil.
Did you forget that the chantry still runs the circles under divine cass and Viv?
With it not being the case under Lel, I'm assuming there will be little difference and the Circle will end up being independent for DA Keep reasons.
It's just an assumption, but such a difference in world states does limit what the writers can do. If Lel's world is the one without oversight on Templars and Circle, it is the one likely to be ignored and probably handwaved that the Grand Clerics stepped in. However, if BW will be so bold and have Lel's world exist and force Viv's world to have a College, I think the writers will make the Chantry the same in all worlds with the same reforms.
Just to make the World of Thedas vol 3 easier to write.
Haven't read it. Hope it's good. Maybe I'll pick it up when it's done and in collected editions.
It really isn't
Medling in affairs of Monarchies/States without legitimacy are fun. Big fun.
Risky: fun. Templars: sucks.
My Inquisitors are mages, then they trust in mages, not in the templars. I have a moderated Andrastian noble ex-Circle mage, who hated the life in the circle, a Dalish, who belive in elf pantheon, and do not belive in the Circle-system, and a Qunari "apostate"
Now seriously: Why they should choose the Templars (role-playing point of view)? (I know some good arguments beside choose templars, but I will tell if I will sided at templars...)
I am roleplaying. Therefore, too many risks are not fun for my character, even if they are mages. I mean really, the Rebel Mage path plan had a lot of potential to go wrong.
Ya, PCs have great fun with power trips and little consequence. Games are meant to be fun, afterall.
I like playing a mage, too. Except in DA2. I'm a bit disappointed that game experience is not the same as what the lore suggests when living as a mage, but it has to be a game and there are limits to it.
While I get being a mage that distrusts Templars, I found it pretty cool to be a mage who promotes Ser Barris to Knight Commander after his exemplary conduct in the various table missions he has, protecting innocent mages and civilians while dealing with villianous mages and demons. Certainly one of the best parts in my canon.
I conscripted the Templars, encouraged Cullen to cure his Lyrium addiction and made Leliana Divine.
There is simply no battle in history that none-mages won versus mages without Templars or their own magic. So its laughable when people think mobs can actually attack and take over a circle.
I am roleplaying. Therefore, too many risks are not fun for my character, even if they are mages. I mean really, the Rebel Mage path plan had a lot of potential to go wrong.
I conscripted the Templars, encouraged Cullen to cure his Lyrium addiction and made Leliana Divine.
The whole thing is risky, one or two additional risk no longer matter. And how can we trust it for a minute in the templars? The most corrupt, the others to attack anything that moves.
Considering we are going to Tevinter which has a different chantry, I doubt it will be mentioned that much
Now that I can agree with.
I am certainly interested to see more of the Imperial Chantry and see this issue portrayed in a different setting.
That's not a fair comparison,
Yes, yes it is. A citizen is just as liable to be abused by a guardsman as a mage is by a Templar.
If we are going to dismiss the entire Templar Order because we can't possibly prevent any and all abuse for 900 years, we may as well do away with guardsmen.
Did you not read that list of crimes and atrocities perpetuated by the Templars? It looks less like a bunch of isolated incidents and more like a modus operandi.
The thing about arguing against a system is that for every abused mage you dish out, I can point to every single other who lived their lives in peace in the Circles.
Was there a climate of fear in Ferelden's tower? It seemed to me the mages were more concerned about gossiping about the Hero of Ferelden's alcove adventures with Isabela than lobotomies or rapes.
Ah but surely we have Kirkwall and yes, you could say that under Meredith, the Templar overreached, however, shall we compare the actual Templars of Kirkwall?
So, you have Meredith and Karras and Otto and Mettin. Bad Templars, no doubt. But what of Agatha and Margitte and Hugh and Thrask and Emeric and Cullen and Moira and Keran and Paxley and Ruvena?
And what of Ella's letter where she claims the majority of Templars were glad Alrik was gone and did not want conflict or Tranquility?
It's not the kindest thing to say, but nobody misses Alrik. Not even the other templars. I know it's hard to imagine, but they don't want to fight. They want things to be normal: no Harrowings, no Tranquil, and no one dying. But none of us are getting that wish now.
http://dragonage.wik...tter:_From_Ella
Do you want to talk about a modus operandi? How about the fact virtually every major villain of this franchise is a mage or was influenced by one? Solas, Corypheus causing the Blight which caused Red Lyrium, Khedra.
At some point, a group's ideology becomes too toxic to ignore, and the Templars reached that point handily.
How dare people want to protected from mages? If they bowed to their magical overlord, none of this would be happening.
Just like getting rid of the Preatorians didn't mean the emperors weren't protected, though, getting rid of the Templars doesn't mean the mages won't have protection, they'll just have something new and better.
Yes, I remember your suggestion of having mages be kept in check by people who are paid by them and thus have no reason whatsoever to prosecute them.
I mean, it's like believing the MI6 would bring Prince George in for trial if he raped someone as opposed to covering it up.
[...]
So, you have Meredith and Karras and Otto and Mettin. Bad Templars, no doubt. But what of Agatha and Margitte and Hugh and Thrask and Emeric and Cullen and Moira and Keran and Paxley and Ruvena?
[...]
Thrask good example, but he disagree with you ... 
Magic isn't a crime. The Circle does a lot of business with magic that the Chantry doesn't see a penny on. Only unsanctioned schools are a crime.
The Chantry was moving toward reform, which the Seekers, Templars, and mages interfered and ruined.
It isn't against Chantry doctrine for a mage to be clergy, it seems. Mages are just prohibited from holding a governing position over mundanes. That is what the Chantry teaches.
As for the practical rules concerning the Circle, ya, they had to live in the Towers and such. Such things could change without opposing the Chantry, but they were set up for practical reasons that need to be brought up if those rules are to change.
Not that it matters after the war. The Chantry is no longer overseeing the Circle or College, and if that's the case, then they don't need the Templars, anymore... or lyrium.
The questions are: who will host these groups and what restrictions will they have under their various hosts. Also, there is no monopoly anymore, different groups can start popping up now, be they magic schools or anti-magic mercs.
Not meaning to say this is terrible or great, but I will be disappointed if these options that are now possible are not addressed.
Finally, something interesting in this thread worth discussing. Far too many people who whole-heartedly advocated the breakup of the Circle system payed scant attention or gave any thought to what would happen afterwards- to mundanes or mages.
Too often pro-mages presume that doing away with Templars will mean there will be no actors to restrict the mages. I struggle to think of the last time anyone considered what sort of people might step into the power vacuum that the Templar's destruction would fill. The lack of discussion seems to indicate that people presume no one will.
I struggle to think of the last time anyone considered what sort of people might step into the power vacuum that the Templar's destruction would fill. The lack of discussion seems to indicate that people presume no one will.
And everything will be wonderful? Haha! You do not think, that I think, or?
All things considered, I'd prefer anyone else from the religious fanatics.And everything will be wonderful? Haha! You do not think, that I think, or?
Mundanes could have a harmonious relationship with the southern mages if they wish it. Take Qarth for example: https://www.youtube....h?v=7SYkgbjlGaQ
They have mages free and even participate in government and are not slaves and allegedly, it has benefited them. They've developed an "understanding".
The Mundanes should have their own templars acting as their anti-magic army. The Exalted Council should act as the UN of Southern Thedas. The Chantry, if they actually acted in a matter in which it was intended, would fight for ideals and justice instead of political expedience.
The College, with any luck, could carve out their own kingdom. Something small, perhaps in the Frostback Mountains or Skyhold where no nations would tread and could not use as justification of them being forced into government Circles and where they could be a people unto themselves. I won't lie, in order for the College to survive, they would need to become like the Inquisition and acquire power and influence. They need their own army, they need to establish trade and alliances with other people. If the rebel mages survive, they are in a better position to do that, even with Fiona's misgivings she at the very least could fulfill the role of general and band together all sorts of mages to combat a threat to the Circle and any nation bold enough to leash them again. Blood mages standing side by side with Spirit Healers, Shapeshifters fighting along side Arcane Warriors. And then there are Augurs, the Avexis, the Dreamers who could tip the scales. Hedge mages with powers unable to be replicated, that could command dragons, create powerful enchanted weapons, or summon spirits to fight for the College. At best, they'd be a formidable army. And they'd have to fight the Circle so as not to revert back into the Chantry's clutches. At best, they'd be the mage underground. They'd liberate those imprison under the Circle by coercion and since they know how to revert the Right of Tranquility, they'll have people who regained their magical powers joining their cause and acting as endorsers of the College who freed them from unjust lobotomy. At worse, they'll be seen as terrorists and murderers.
With any luck, Leliana could assuage the fears of the public and the College could be legitimized by giving them a seat on the Exalted Council which will enforce law and order, and unite Southern Thedas against Tevinter, the Qunari, or the Darkspawn. At worse, Southern Thedas will continue to fight amongst itself while presumably the expansion will show the reformation of Tevinter or have the Qunari conquer the north and whoever wins will look to expand to a divided south.
Westeros magic is not like Thedas magic. It's not even DnD magic, it is closer to.... Warhammer Fantasy... sort of... a little like Warcraft with magic coming from the demonic plane or something.
Let's say the College cuts out a nation. It will tick off neighbors and would oppose Chantry doctrine over mages not allowed to rule over mundanes. If the Chantry supported it, it would have to declare itself heretical... which would be awkward.
Mages will be born outside the College, who the College has no right to take without permission of the local power, be it a monarch or bann or whatever. To operate in other nations, it would need permission. Also, mundanes will be born to mages, and all mages in a mage nation would have to be pretty humble to allow those they could easily dominate take a seat of power and potentially oppose powerful mages.
I don't see why Augurs would care to aide the College, the Avvar barely care about the "lowlanders." Blood mages would freak out the Andrastian devout and could cause an Exalted March if the nation has mages in power and openly does blood magic.
At this point, the Circle and College are only for areas that can't support training and supplying mages, places like Nevarra have no need for them. All Nevarrans can be taught by the Mortalitasi, who are usually better taught anyway, and Nevarra would have control on magic policy, not any outsiders.
Without the Chantry, the College lacks authority, and the more powerful nations can dismiss it and do their own stuff.
At least the Circle is known and Viv can really bank on a known brand and her political skills. The College is starting from scratch and nothing is known about it.
The Augurs would care if their gods are swayed by the Plight of the mages. If Korth, Lady of the Skyes, and all those other spirits are swayed, they can sway the the Augurs to join the college. Even the "witches" of the Chasind, the Blood Mages, what other motivations do they need other than an institute that would protect them from being coerced to join a circle, lobotomized, protect their ancient rituals, or be murdered by cold blood from some Chantry or nation's Templar?
The College will take care of the muggle families born of mage parents. They aren't the Chantry, they aren't the Circle, that's the whole appeal of the College. They can have families.
As for ticking off the other nations, the chantry, blah blah blah. So What? Do you think any First Enchanter worth their salt cowers to tyrants and nobles? There are religious fanatics and stubborn men who will not let mages be no matter what. Screw asking for "permission", mages belong with their own, if the nations have a problem, shoot 'em with a fireball. Best to just show them mages aren't to be trifled. with. With a strong leader, the mages can unite and at the very least, have a war that is so costly that "winning" against the College would be meaningless. And despite what the chantry thinks, not all kingdoms disapprove of a free magical society, especially if the College can entice them with benefits to their interests. What could the dwarven kingdom or the Raider pirates gain with magical weapons and armor, and magic to fight the darkspawn. What could the Dalish or Grey Wardens get with a powerful ally? If the College could convince southern thedas that free mages are in favor of their own self interests, they would be formidable in influence to fight the Circle.
As for the Chantry, a softened Leliana will back the College if their cause is just. A hardened will just kill the nations' leaders trying to oppress the College. A Cassandra Divine will at the very least try to follow her faith and back which ever side she feels the Maker would approve of, that doesn't necessarily mean the Circle. Vivienne is a tyrant and the College would fight her no matter what. Since the Chantry reformed itself after Cory's defeat, it's already heretical. They've alredy stepped on toes, it's not like Divine Victoria is afraid of being "awkward".
GoT magic is very rare and Daenerys was able to conquer all of the Western world with only three dragons. In Dragon Age, magic is more abundant. We have mages who can talk to dragons, who can infiltrate your mind, can create curses. Dragon Age mages have a better shot of carving out a kingdom with more means than Daenerys.
Sounds like mages shouldn't respect the sovereignty of other nations. That would justify the fears against magic if the mages become tyrannical and conquer others just to get their way. Not all mages like the College, anyway, that's why they remade the Circle. Few want another Tevinter Imperium, especially "muggles."
Also, yes, this is all a rehash, but it is fun.
Nations who endorses the Circle condone kidnapping, oppression, and lobotomization. Mages should respect those nations just as they respect Tevinter, i.e., slavers looking to oppress. True not all mages like the College, that is why they are the enemy and only understand the fear of dying by the sword. There's no point to a college if the nations rescind everything back to the Circle, if they want a home in Southern thedas they need to fight for it.
The College is not another Tevinter Imperium, at best they'd be the X-men but they could scorch the earth if backed into a corner. And if the southern mages aren't given succor, they'll either just die or align themselves with the real Tevinter Imperium.
please point out where any of us have said that the current system is 100% perfect
I'll wait
You mean aside from your post where it was stated to be exactly like a boarding school?
Or the numerous claims from MisterJB that there is no mage opression, because they have better lives than the average peasant, therfore mages are just whiny and complain baout nothing? Because that argument to me feels just like saying first world people are not allowed to complain about being sexually assaulted because children in Africa starve daily.
Yes, losing your freedom is "whiny". 
The ironic thing is Andraste freed people. And now her adherents boil down to this.
If anyone is whiny, it's the people doing this. It tells me that they lack coping skills.. that they put faith in systems and plans and can't improvise their way through problems or the unknown. The kind of person who can't take it easy unless everything is predictable. They ought to just join the Qunari already and stop the pretense.
Finally, something interesting in this thread worth discussing. Far too many people who whole-heartedly advocated the breakup of the Circle system payed scant attention or gave any thought to what would happen afterwards- to mundanes or mages.
Too often pro-mages presume that doing away with Templars will mean there will be no actors to restrict the mages. I struggle to think of the last time anyone considered what sort of people might step into the power vacuum that the Templar's destruction would fill. The lack of discussion seems to indicate that people presume no one will.
Well to be honest Dean nobody wanted Templars gone in the first place until things... escalated.
We can go back to what mages initially wanted, autonomy in circles. That wouldn't mean removing Templars. People wanted Templars gone when they break away from the chantry for the specific reason of hunting mages and prevent this (more autonomy in circles) from happening. This is the typical situation of giving an organization too much power. Chantry should have held Templars in a much tighter grip.
Templars disband for good only in one of the endings, Leliana as divine and Cullen persuaded to not take Lyrium which results in all Templars going this path and the order gone. In rest of them the Templars still exist, they simply have less power and much less prestige and respect in comparison to past.
As for who would take their place? I don't think the lore has introduced anything to fill this gap, except reformed Seekers maybe. In case of Leliana as divine and no Templars it actually helps that Cassandra and Leliana work well together, therefore reforming the Seekers seems the most convenient in this situation.
Well to be honest Dean nobody wanted Templars gone in the first place until things... escalated.
We can go back to what mages initially wanted, autonomy in circles. That wouldn't mean removing Templars. People wanted Templars gone when they break away from the chantry for the specific reason of hunting mages and prevent this (more autonomy in circles) from happening. This is the typical situation of giving an organization too much power. Chantry should have held Templars in a much tighter grip.
Templars disband for good only in one of the endings, Leliana as divine and Cullen persuaded to not take Lyrium which results in all Templars going this path and the order gone. In rest of them the Templars still exist, they simply have less power and much less prestige and respect in comparison to past.
As for who would take their place? I don't think the lore has introduced anything to fill this gap, except reformed Seekers maybe. In case of Leliana as divine and no Templars it actually helps that Cassandra and Leliana work well together, therefore reforming the Seekers seems the most convenient in this situation.
It's probably good they go anyways. An order that is founded on an addictive substance is no kind of longterm solution... or a strong one. No matter how available it is, it's asinine to tie oneself down to that. Seekers I'm also weary about, but the cost of it doesn't seem as bad. I'm really not sure.
It's probably good they go anyways. An order that is founded on an addictive substance is no kind of longterm solution... or a strong one. No matter how available it is, it's asinine to tie oneself down to that. Seekers I'm also weary about, but the cost of it doesn't seem as bad. I'm really not sure.
Problem with Seekers is ...they are a huge failure.
If you want to point finger at someone for the whole debacle , point them at Seekers.
Their main job and role , their reason to be was to deal with stuff like Kirkwall...but they just shrugged and looked the other way.
It makes zero sense they didn't go to Kirkwall ASAP when the rumors of an Exalted March were very real.
Elthina had lost any influence over Meredith , meaning Meredith had gone rogue plain and simple .
It still annoys me the Seekers were made so comically useless , it's not like they tried and failed...it's the equivalent of some firefighters standing in front of a building on fire and deciding "oh yeah well , let's go home it will sort itself out ...somehow".
I mean Leliana tells you in DA2 everyone is looking at Kirkwall and holding their breath to see what happens next .What happened next is Cassandra did an investigation three years after things went "Boom" and only because the Chantry was on the brick of collapse.Even after the circle in Kirkwall went to hell , the Seekers couldn't be bothered to check what was going on.
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