1158 réponses à ce sujet

[straykat]

Problem with Seekers is ...they are a huge failure.

If you want to point finger at someone for the whole debacle , point them at Seekers.

Their main job and role , their reason to be was to deal with stuff like Kirkwall...but they just shrugged and looked the other way.

 

It makes zero sense they didn't go to Kirkwall ASAP when the rumors of an Exalted March were very real.

Elthina had lost any influence over Meredith , meaning Meredith had gone rogue plain and simple .

 

It still annoys me the Seekers were made so comically useless , it's not like they tried and failed...it's the equivalent of some firefighters standing in front of a building on fire and deciding "oh yeah well , let's go home it will sort itself out ...somehow".

I mean Leliana tells you in DA2 everyone is looking at Kirkwall and holding their breath to see what happens next .What happened next is Cassandra did an investigation three years after things went "Boom" and only because the Chantry was on the brick of collapse.Even after the circle in Kirkwall went to hell , the Seekers couldn't be bothered to check what was going on.

 

I think this has more to do with them canceling DA2's expansion.

 

I'd even be willing to bet that the Seekers and Inquisition were one and the same at some point. And like... the Inquisition we have now is some way to make a break from all of it. Badly, I might add. That expansion should've happened either way.

 

Just my speculation though. As it is, I agree. I only think the actual mechanisms behind their skills could still be of use... more than lyrium at least. I'm just wary of Spirit mingling a bit, but I'm not sure if it's a big problem or not.

[Reznore57]

I think this has more to do with them canceling DA2's expansion.

 

I'd even be willing to bet that the Seekers and Inquisition were one and the same at some point. And like... the Inquisition we have now is some way to make a break from all of it. Badly, I might add. That expansion should've happened either way.

 

Just my speculation though. As it is, I agree. I only think the actual mechanisms behind their skills could still be of use... more than lyrium at least. I'm just wary of Spirit mingling a bit, but I'm not sure if it's a big problem or not.

 

The funny thing is the Seekers or at least Cassandra were supposed to be in Kirwall during act 3 .The Qunari coupound was turned into a Seeker place , and there's still voiced line of Elthina talking with Hawke saying stuff like Cass is here and wants to talk with him in the files.

 

It's too bad it didn't happen though when you arrive in Kirkwall , one of the first codex you can find in the Gallows is about the Seekers who deal with rogue mages and templars, and how even the templars start sweating when the Seekers check a circle.

[fhs33721]

Do you want to talk about a modus operandi? How about the fact virtually every major villain of this franchise is a mage or was influenced by one? Solas, Corypheus causing the Blight which caused Red Lyrium, Khedra.

Now this is an interesting claim. let's see how much truth there is for that actually. For science:

 

Major non-Mage villains:

King Meghren (Big Bad of The stolen Throne novel)

Majorlaine and Reileigh (Big bads of the Lelianas song DLC),

Loghain and Howe (Secondary antagonists of all of DAO and have a higher presence than the actual big bad the archdemon),

Branka (Main villain of the Orzammar arc),

Kolgrim (Main villain of the sacted Ashes plotline) ,

The Arishok and Mother Petriece (Big bads of act 2 of DA2),

Duke Prosper (Big bad of the Mark of the assassin DLC),

Gaspard (Fills the main villain role for The masked empire),

Lord seeker Lambert (Kind of the big bad of Asunder)

The Vidasalla (main villain for Tresspasser)

and the most vile villain of all, the Requisition officier (for giving me infinite quest and those being shittiest quests in the history of Bioware to boot).

 

As opposed to the major mage villains:

Megherens main mage commander in The stolen Throne,

The Architect (main villain of the Calling novel and sedondary villain of the Awakening Expansion),

Zathrian (main villain of the werewolve questline),

Avernus (Responsible for demon invasion in Wardens peak),

The mother (Big bad of the awakening Expansion),

Corypheus (Big bad of the Legacy DLC and DAI),

The Magister dude that acts as main villain for the comic series,

Calpernia (One of Corypheus second in commands)

Alexius (Main villain in In Hushed Whispers),

Erimond (Secondary villain during the Warden stroyline),

Solas (most likely as main villain of DA4)

and lastly probably Flemeth (as overrarchig villain for the series, though her actual end goal has until now never been revealed).

 

Plus aditionally there is Abominations that sometimes serve as major villains, who are also kind of mages faults:

Uldred abomination (main villain of the broken circle plot),

Desire demon summoned by Connor in redcliffe (obviously the big bad of Redcliffe)

and the Baroness who is kind of the third antagonist of Awakening.

 

Mage influenced non-mage villains:

Meredith Stannard (Big Bad of DA2, specifically Act 3 influenced by red lyrium),

Samson (Corypheus other second in command during DAI. Influenced by Corypheus and red lyrium),

Florianne (Main villain of Wicked eyes and Wicked hearts. Influenced by Corypheus)

and the Hakkonite leader who isn't a mage but I'll put him here because his plans involve magic.

 

Lastly, Major villains that are some sort of magical creatures and are influenced by a mage:

Urthemiel (Big bad of DAO, allegedy only exists because of Corypheus),

Darkspawn (in general as Atagonists of the Back to Ostagar DLC. same as Urthemiel),

The Harvester (Big Bad of Golems of Amgarrak. Created with help from Tevinter mages even thogh the dwarves were the driving force behind that f*ck-up)

Envy (Main villain of Champions of the just. Serves Corypheus),

the Nightmare (Main villain during the Warden stroyline, Helps Corypheus.),

Hakkon (is a spirit turned demon summoned into a Dragon assumedly by a mage)

The Titan ("Villain" of the Descent. Not very villainous but he does cause Havoc due to Corypheus nonsense),

 

So in conclusion we have 13 major non-mage villains, 15 major mage villains (three of which are abominations), 4 non-mage villains that were "influenced" by mages or magic and 7 major magical creatue-villains that are presumbaly the fault of mages.

And there are obviuosly some cases where non-mages are the ones in charge actually (Mehgrens mage, Avernus initially only acting on command of Sophia Dryden and the dwarves being the ones to start the whole Golem research in the first place). As well as cases like Envy and the Nightmare who would aslo be up to no good without mages around. And Meredith was aweful before the red lyrium and Florianne probably was pretty villainous before supporting Corypheus as well.

 

But yes about 2/3 of villains are mages or influenced by mages (even though I'm deliberately stretching the "influnced by mages" part very, very thin.) Still leaves 1/3 non-mage villains and I'd personally conclude that "virtually every  major villain of this franchise is a mage or was influenced by one" is still somewhat exaggerated.

 

Edited: Added King Meghren to the list.

[MisterJB]

You mean aside from your post where it was stated to be exactly like a boarding school?

Or the numerous claims from MisterJB that there is no mage opression, because they have better lives than the average peasant, therfore mages are just whiny and complain baout nothing? Because that argument to me feels just like saying first world people are not allowed to complain about being sexually assaulted because children in Africa starve daily.

 

That is quite the leap in logic.

Just because I believe mages have better quality of life than most of Thedas and that they over-romanticize an outside world that is cruel and harsh and where the majority of people can't even read, that means I believe the Circle is perfect?
No, I simply don't believe the grievances the mages have with it, some of which are legitimate, justify causing a war that would kill innocent people whose lives were already worse than the mages to begin with.
 

[MisterJB]

But yes about 2/3 of villains are mages or influenced by mages (even though I'm deliberately stretching the "influnced by mages" part very, very thin.) Still leaves 1/3 non-mage villains and I'd personally conclude that "virtually every  major villain of this franchise is a mage or was influenced by one" is still somewhat exaggerated.

I would say that you are stretching far more when you place people like Duke Prosper (whose party Hawke crashes with a qunari agent and whose villainy was simply trying to acquire qunari secrets) Branka and Kolgrim (who, again, are mostly minding their own business until the Warden comes around and whose crimes consist of a dozen death if that) and Gaspard and Lambert (whom you yourself admit are only "kind of" the villains from a certain point of view) on the same level of villainy as global threats like Solas and Corypheus.

 

Even Loghain wouldn't have done what he did if not for the Blight which wouldn't be in Thedas if not for Corypheus and the Architect..

[Catilina]

[...]

I would only add, that the influence in many cases happened by the will of the influenced character.. For example: Meredith. No one forced her to wanting even more power by using the led lyrium. This was only her choice.

[Catilina]

[...]

Even Loghain wouldn't have done what he did if not for the Blight which wouldn't be in Thedas if not for Corypheus and the Architect..

Okay, Then Loghain is innocent. Good to know. 

Then Anders innocent too. He also had a reason.

 

(Not to mention that Loghain have interesting reason: he mirdered almost all the warden, who could have done something against the Blight. This is a twisted logic, is not it?)

[fhs33721]

I would say that you are stretching far more when you place people like Duke Prosper (whose party Hawke crashes with a qunari agent and whose villainy was simply trying to acquire qunari secrets) Branka and Kolgrim (who, again, are mostly minding their own business until the Warden comes around and whose crimes consist of a dozen death if that) and Gaspard and Lambert (whom you yourself admit are only "kind of" the villains from a certain point of view) on the same level of villainy as global threats like Solas and Corypheus.

 

Even Loghain wouldn't have done what he did if not for the Blight which wouldn't be in Thedas if not for Corypheus and the Architect..

Hey now, I'm not puting anyone on Level with Solas and Corypheus. I'm just listing all the major villains for their repspective game/DLC/book/comic. Minding your own villainous business until the protagonist comes along therefore doesn't excuse you from getting on the list. After all Zathrian was also just minding his own business and only cursed a couple of people, but I still put him on the mage-villain list. The Harvester was also just minding it's own business until the Protagonist stumbled over it. It still goes on the list. Just like the Titan who was literally doing nothing villainous at all except causing dwarves to loose money by making them unable to mine in that area. Just like Megherens mage-right hand, even though he was just following a non-mages orders and the Hakkonite leader even though he was a non-mage who planned on his own to use a magical creature for genocide.

You see I'm applying the generous definition of villain to both sides. Also according to your own logic Gaspard for example is far more deserving of the villain list than Zathrian, the Harvester or Avernus because his plans caused far more destruction and death than all their evil deeds combined.

[fhs33721]

I would only add, that the influence in many cases happened by the will of the influenced character.. For example: Meredith. No one forced her to wanting even more power by using the led lyrium. This was only her choice.

As said I was generously stretching the definition of "mage influenced". Apparently it wasn't streched enough for some people, who claim that even Loghains deeds are somehow the fault of mages. For the record I think Meredith was villainous enough to begin with.

By the way I should have probably put King Megheren himself on the non-mage villain list instead of just his second in command.

[Catilina]

As said I was generously stretching the definition of "mage influenced". Apparently it wasn't streched enough for some people, who claim that even Loghains deeds are somehow the fault of mages. For the record I think Meredith was villainous enough to begin with.

By the way I should have probably put King Megheren himself on the non-mage villain list instead of just his secon in command.

You are too courteous!

[thesuperdarkone2]

People are seriously arguing it's the mages fault for loghain's actions?! Lol Templar supporters are desperate to find any way to blame mages

[MisterJB]

"Fiona was under blood magic" Superdarkone yells, as he clings desperately to a codex entry no one has yet been able to find.

[Hellion Rex]

People are seriously arguing it's the mages fault for loghain's actions?! Lol Templar supporters are desperate to find any way to blame mages

The exact same could be said of some pro-mage supporters. Please get off your high pedestal.

[Lulupab]

There are some desperate discussions going on however. lmao blaming all mages for blight.

 

Guess what? ALL those mages were human, might as well blame all the humans for blight. 

 

Moving to more serious topics...

 

Not sure who you are blaming for starting the war, but pretty sure Lambert was half the reason, and everything else combined the other half. After the reveal in DA:I Lambert was a pure villain. Not saying you can't feel at least a tiny a bit of sympathy towards him, but doesn't change the fact that he was a villain. You could remove all actors who contributed to the fight between mages and Templars and the war might have happened anyway. But if you remove Lambert from play the war wouldn't have happened.

 

Thedas is a magical world, of course the events revolve around magic. 2/3 of the villains might be mages, however magic is used to fight them as well. Its a tool, its like saying 2/3 of world's criminals use guns. The only difference here is magic is a gun only a certain people can use. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

The exact same could be said of some pro-mage supporters. Please get off your high pedestal.

So I take it you have no problem with saying mages are the reason loghain did anything?

[Catilina]

So I take it you have no problem with saying mages are the reason loghain did anything?

Loghain are innocent.

[Hellion Rex]

So I take it you have no problem with saying mages are the reason loghain did anything?

Hardly, cause I don't blame them for it. I haven't read the Calling or Stolen Throne, so I don't feel comfortable discussing Loghain at all, really. That said, my point was about your generalizations of people that support Templars, in general.

[Lulupab]

If you want to blame something for Loghain's actions, its Orlais not blight. Orlais and its threat was the reason he betrayed, not the blight itself.

 

Saying Loghain did what he did because of mages is probably the most absurd thing I've heard during my time on this forum.

[Daerog]

Hardly, cause I don't blame them for it. I haven't read the Calling or Stolen Throne, so I don't feel comfortable discussing Loghain at all, really. That said, my point was about your generalizations of people that support Templars, in general.

I have read them.

I would call Loghain an antagonist, not a villain. All he did, he was doing for Fereldan. He was paranoid about Orlais because his mother was raped, father murdered before his eyes, and lived through a harsh occupation that cost a lot of lives to push out.

So, I ended up killing Loghain in my canon, but he wasn't evil. He was a radical patriot.

Cory sought to be a God Tyrant, Lambert became corrupt with fear and pride, and Orsino was supporting murder for more power.

Lumping mages together is like lumping elves together. It's not that accurate. There are mages who are more loyal to their state or patron or personal code than other mages, just as there are elves who don't care about elfhood and elfiness in general.

I don't think the Mortalitasi (as a group/organization) joined the rebels, there would be no benefit for them, just a loss in reputation and trust. They are already privileged. Loyalists ran out of the war when they could. Grey Warden mages didn't help, either, but that's expected.

Templars are a little easier to lump together, due to being a single organization that doesn't have any known subgroups/fraternities with varied philosophies. Still, sweeping generalizations are sweeping generalizations.

I'm guessing the Chantry will no longer hold a monopoly on lyrium, other Templar-like groups will form as anti-magic mercs. Since few know and are able to be touched by a fade spirit, the Templar method will be the way to go. It is pretty effective.

On the Templar method, my question is why a high ranking Inquisition member (first Inquisition) would discover, use, and promote such a method when high ranking Inquisition members knew about being touched by spirits? Or was the spirit thing discovered later? Or does the Templar method have some benefits that the spirit method doesn't?

Edit: Scratch the discovered bit, but it seems the early Inquisition had no spirit-touched, just Templars, the earliest ones when the effects weren't fully known. http://dragonage.wik...y:_At_What_Cost

[MisterJB]

So I take it you have no problem with saying mages are the reason loghain did anything?

 

Every death caused by the Blight is on the shoulder of mages.

[raging_monkey]

If you want to blame something for Loghain's actions, its Orlais not blight. Orlais and its threat was the reason he betrayed, not the blight itself.

Saying Loghain did what he did because of mages is probably the most absurd thing I've heard during my time on this forum.

try the feedback forums... Its a lot worse

[Jaison1986]

Every death caused by the Blight is on the shoulder of mages.

 

the sins of the father am I right? By that mindset, Cassandra needs to be burned at the stake for all the mistakes the seekers made.

[Hellion Rex]

Every death caused by the Blight is on the shoulder of mages.

I wouldn't say that necessarily, however I do think it's fair the Blight does place an impetus and burden upon the mages to learn control of their power and put their powers to use in society.

[MisterJB]

the sins of the father am I right? By that mindset, Cassandra needs to be burned at the stake for all the mistakes the seekers made.

I am not saying the mages of today are to blame.

I am saying that mages are to blame.

[Lulupab]

By that logic all those mages were human, KILL THE HUMANS because they are to blame for all the blights. The chant itself calls it greed of humans, not mages, that made them venture into black city.

 

Blight is a 100% human thing. Neither Elves nor Dwarves had anything to do with it. The Qunari are also out of the question.