1158 réponses à ce sujet

[Catilina]

"Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius."

[Hellion Rex]

I am not saying the mages of today are to blame.

I am saying that mages are to blame.

The way you worded it made it sound like the former instead of the latter.

[thesuperdarkone2]

By that logic all those mages were human, KILL THE HUMANS because they are to blame for all the blights. The chant itself calls it greed of humans, not mages, that made them venture into black city.

Blight is a 100% human thing. Neither Elves nor Dwarves had anything to do with it. The Qunari are also out of the question.

At first I thought he was joking, but he's actually serious. Not sure if sad or funny

[raging_monkey]

At first I thought he was joking, but he's actually serious. Not sure if sad or funny

it's a game he can think what he wants sans moral judgement

[straykat]

Well, it's magisters specifically to me. But anyone could be that power hungry, even if not a mage. It just so happens that magisters have a better shot than most.

 

 

And while I prefer mages have their freedom, I still don't think they should rule or be put in that position again.

 

To punish all mages as if they were magisters is just stupid though. Andraste never said that. She didn't even warn about every problem that pops up because of magic. She just cared about slavery and rulers (or the hubris of rulers). Somehow the Chantry made it about every single magic issue under the sun.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

People are seriously arguing it's the mages fault for loghain's actions?! Lol Templar supporters are desperate to find any way to blame mages

 

If you think about it, the Ferelden Circle Mages and Loghain are quite intricately linked.

 

Without Loghain making such big promises, Uldred and his lackeys would not have rebelled and caused the mess that is the Broken Circle questline.

 

Without Jowan to deliver the poison to Arl Eamon and without Jowan educating Connor, the entire Redcliffe mess that is the Arl of Redcliffe could have been avoided.

 

The point is that without Loghain, the Uldred and his lackeys would not have gotten to where they were and without some of the Ferelden Circle mages, Loghain could not have gotten where he was.

 

So the blame does rest on both parties in this issue.

 

 

"Fiona was under blood magic" Superdarkone yells, as he clings desperately to a codex entry no one has yet been able to find.

 

Superdarkone is a mess. Sad !

 

 

Well, it's magisters specifically to me. But anyone could be that power hungry, even if not a mage. It just so happens that magisters have a better shot than most.

 

And while I prefer mages have their freedom, I still don't think they should rule or be put in that position again.

 

To punish all mages as if they were magisters is just stupid though. Andraste never said that. She didn't even warn about every problem that pops up because of magic. She just cared about slavery and rulers (or the hubris of rulers). Somehow the Chantry made it about every single magic issue under the sun.

 

I wanted to disagree with you, but I realized that I couldn't.

 

The Evanuris were a group of 9 (counting Fen'Harel, he is anti-slavery though) mages that managed to subjugate an entire race of people, their own kind at that for eons and mess things up so badly that one of them had to create a construct, the Veil that practically destroyed the Elven people.

 

The Ancient Tevinter Magisters enslaved the Elves at Arlathan and then used Blood Magic to enter into the Fade to unleash the Taint and start the Blights. Now in modern day Tevinter, it is ruled by Magisters and Tevinter as a corrupt nation openly practices slavery and secretly practices Blood Magic.

 

Amongst the Dalish Elves, they have to strictly rely on the Keeper, who must be a Mage, a sign of the "Mage Top, Mundanes Below" hierarchy in ancient Elvehnan. This prevents capable non-mage Dalish Elves from ruling and more importantly, we have seen or read quite a number of Dalish Keepers and/or their Firsts mucking things about.

 

In my opinion, mages are at their best when they are consulting or advising a ruler or pursuing scholarly work or functioning as both support and offense in times of conflict. Ruling does not suit them since Mages have to stay in control and not let their emotions get to them but when you are in power, it is hard to do that.

[Lord of War]

 

In my opinion, mages are at their best when they are consulting or advising a ruler or pursuing scholarly work or functioning as both support and offense in times of conflict. Ruling does not suit them since Mages have to stay in control and not let their emotions get to them but when you are in power, it is hard to do that.

 

This is something I can fundamentally agree with. Like or not, mages are important, and including them in society is not just necessary, but vital. The Chantry/Templar method of it, though, is not the right or even smart way of going about it. Will reform be hard? I think so, but I also think it's worth it for a better and greater society.

[straykat]

On a sidenote, I know I said I like Leliana and siding with Temps, but I may just conscript mages next time I play. That's a cool outcome to me too.

 

Not sure what I have to do to prevent Vivienne from taking the position though... that kind of worries me. I mean, outside of not recruiting her at all. It seems like I'm stretching things thin if I want Leliana as divine somehow.

[Lulupab]

On a sidenote, I know I said I like Leliana and siding with Temps, but I may just conscript mages next time I play. That's a cool outcome to me too.

 

Not sure what I have to do to prevent Vivienne from taking the position though... that kind of worries me. I mean, outside of not recruiting her at all. It seems like I'm stretching things thin if I want Leliana as divine somehow.

 

Hardened Leliana takes care of any resistance almost instantly two times, one after epilogue and another time after events of Trespasser. If you want someone who can deal with Vivienne, its Leliana. If you make Leliana divine, Vivienne is severely outclassed and out of her league.

 

Although Vivienne takes that position in all the endings. But still if she is going to be a problem other than a independent circle, Leliana is best candidate to deal with her.

[Lord of War]

Vivienne is much more powerful under a Divine Cassandra, that's something to be wary of. Her Circle under Leliana is more like a political club for mages than anything else, it certainly isn't getting Chantry support under Leliana. 

[MisterJB]

This is something I can fundamentally agree with. Like or not, mages are important, and including them in society is not just necessary, but vital. The Chantry/Templar method of it, though, is not the right or even smart way of going about it. Will reform be hard? I think so, but I also think it's worth it for a better and greater society.

 

I actually find myself curious what you would consider to be a "better and greater society", tough I expect a dissertation would end with me pointing out every single way such a society's mechanisms would be undermined and used against itself.

 

Sure, mages are needed because our enemies will have mages but I would say that should be the extent of their involvement beyond making the ocasional enchanted baubble for the nobility.
 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

On a sidenote, I know I said I like Leliana and siding with Temps, but I may just conscript mages next time I play. That's a cool outcome to me too.

 

Not sure what I have to do to prevent Vivienne from taking the position though... that kind of worries me. I mean, outside of not recruiting her at all. It seems like I'm stretching things thin if I want Leliana as divine somehow.

 

I conscript Templars, make Cullen pursue the path to cure his addiction and make Leliana Divine.

 

To me, the Templar Order is a highly unethical organization that uses superstitious nonsense to entice gullible people to get addicted to a highly dangerous substance. Last I checked, it was neither the Maker nor Andraste that told their followers to get addicted to Lyrium to combat rogue Mages. Jaws of Hakkon showed that the Templar specialization came out of a technique that people like Haron, one of Ameridan's companions were trying out.

 

In my opinion, Seekers are far more suitable to combating rogue Mages as well as demonic creatures of the Fade. True the Seeker Order is a mess but being a Seeker means you do not have to be addicted to Lyrium and you are resistant to Blood Magic and Red Lyrium. Which is why you let Cassandra reform the Seeker Order.

 

 

[Lord Raijin]

Because neither the Chantry nor the Templars can command the mages to do anything. The mages rule themselves within the Circle, the Templars guard and advise with all major decision requiring the approval of the First Enchanter while the Chantry mediates between these two equal groups..

 

That's not true at all. According to Knight-Commander Greagoir if the warden is not a mage he would engage in dialogue "It is the innocent folk of Ferelden who matter. I would lay down my life, and the life of any mage, to protect them."

 

http://dragonage.wik...mander_Greagoir

 

The mages would love to rule themselves (The Libertarians) within the Circle, but the Chantry simply would not allow that to happen, not while the Chantry runs each Circle.

[MisterJB]

Gregoir's belief that the lives of the people of Ferelden are more important than those of either Templar or mages somehow translates into "Chantry runs the Circles".

 

I think you just made leaps of logic into an Olympic competition.

[Lulupab]

That's good and all, until Templars break away from Chantry. 

 

You know what happens when a guard dog bites its master? Simple yet very convenient reference.

[Sports72Xtrm]

I wanted to disagree with you, but I realized that I couldn't.

 

The Evanuris were a group of 9 (counting Fen'Harel, he is anti-slavery though) mages that managed to subjugate an entire race of people, their own kind at that for eons and mess things up so badly that one of them had to create a construct, the Veil that practically destroyed the Elven people.

 

The Ancient Tevinter Magisters enslaved the Elves at Arlathan and then used Blood Magic to enter into the Fade to unleash the Taint and start the Blights. Now in modern day Tevinter, it is ruled by Magisters and Tevinter as a corrupt nation openly practices slavery and secretly practices Blood Magic.

 

Amongst the Dalish Elves, they have to strictly rely on the Keeper, who must be a Mage, a sign of the "Mage Top, Mundanes Below" hierarchy in ancient Elvehnan. This prevents capable non-mage Dalish Elves from ruling and more importantly, we have seen or read quite a number of Dalish Keepers and/or their Firsts mucking things about.

 

In my opinion, mages are at their best when they are consulting or advising a ruler or pursuing scholarly work or functioning as both support and offense in times of conflict. Ruling does not suit them since Mages have to stay in control and not let their emotions get to them but when you are in power, it is hard to do that.

Disappointed how so many people are so humbled by the magisters, mages that the southern mages aren't even related to, that they would throw away a voice at court for a ceremonial position like "advisor". The problem with that is that if you throw away your influence, then the nobles and the chantry will ride you roughshod, and throw away your rights as they please. Mages have been serving as "advisors" and scholars for centuries, still didn't prevent the Tranquilities even if objected, the threats of annulments and those that were actually carried out, even Orsino- a defiant First Enchanter- finally broke and conceded to Meredith's demands at the eve of Kirkwall's Annulment. If you are born with the gift of magic, you are born as a weapon and with power. Like kings, those with power and influence don't have the luxury to escape politics. Even Loghain tells the Warden something like that, granted it was about Maric, but still applicable I believe.

 

People have this softened Alistair personality disorder where they see mundanes as their Goldanna's- family that is suppose to accept you unquestionably when in reality they are just a harping wretch trying to bleed you dry because if you tell Alistair the truth, "Everyone is out for themselves." If your a mage, you should accept that mundanes look at you and see either a weakling to be abused or a weapon. Might as well be the weapon and use it to take your freedom. Amazing how people still don't see that. Mages who accept these terms are idiots. There are good mage rulers just as there are good mundane rulers, and there are bad mage rulers just as there are bad mundane rulers. An example of a bad mage ruler is someone who throws away their voice at court to appease social pressure from mundanes. Word of advice to those mages, "a lion doesn't concern themselves of the opinion of the sheep". A bad mundane ruler is afraid of mages that they cower to their power. And if the good mage ruler comes to blows with a good mundane ruler, the ruler that survives is the better ruler. It wouldn't hurt Bioware to actually write mages who have some actual dignity instead of constantly accepting the narrative that they're monsters with the curse of magic.

 

Keepers and their First aren't tyrants and they're not the evanuris. One difference is that Keepers are mortal, Evanuris where immortal. Even the most horrible mage eventually dies and gives rise to a successor. Then there's the fact that the mages per clan are the minority and can be checked. There's only two mages per clan and the clan are always wondering around as their people are in diaspora. They are akin to the Divine, their word holds meaning in a spiritual meaning but the clan makes up their own laws. Leadership is different for every culture, but if the Keeper or First fall to corruption, it is the clan's duty to hunt them. Tyrants don't surround themselves with armed subjects that could easily overpower them with trained arrows. So if you are insinuating that the Dalish are being oppressed by the Keepers, I would disagree. They are more free than the peasants of Orlais or the city elves who the nobles abuse unchecked. The Keepers are checked.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

*snip*

 

 There are good mage rulers just as there are good mundane rulers, and there are bad mage rulers just as there are bad mundane rulers.

 

*snip*

 

Give us an example of a good mage ruler in Thedas please. I will wager that you will not find any. The only one I can think of is Keeper Deshanna Istimaethoriel Lavellan, only if the Elven protagonist managed to allow Clan Lavellan to rule Wycome.

 

Otherwise, all the mage rulers we have seen are bad ones. The Evanuris including Solas and Mythal are not nice. The Magisterium with their Archon are not nice either. Heck, Divine Vivienne is not a good Divine since she rules with an authoritarian hand and perverts the Chant of Light intent to the point Cassandra, a very devout Andrastian, leaves her position within the Chantry hierarchy.

 

So good mage rules are minority to the point they are statistically insignificant. You could even say that Keeper Deshanna is an anomaly in this regard.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Give us an example of a good mage ruler in Thedas please. I will wager that you will not find any. The only one I can think of is Keeper Deshanna Istimaethoriel Lavellan, only if the Elven protagonist managed to allow Clan Lavellan to rule Wycome.

 

Otherwise, all the mage rulers we have seen are bad ones. The Evanuris including Solas and Mythal are not nice. The Magisterium with their Archon are not nice either. Heck, Divine Vivienne is not a good Divine since she rules with an authoritarian hand and perverts the Chant of Light intent to the point Cassandra, a very devout Andrastian, leaves her position within the Chantry hierarchy.

 

So good mage rules are minority to the point they are statistically insignificant. You could even say that Keeper Deshanna is an anomaly in this regard.

Bayonet anyone who has magic is a bad ruler to you because if they have power and you don't they're bad. Doesn't matter if they're compassionate, if they forged the first empires, if they create wonders, its you insecurity that prevents you from being objective. The fact that Solas was able to cast down gods, or Ameriden saved the world countless times, or that mages created the Grey Warden rituals who stopped the blight mean nothing to you because at the end of the day you're weak and they're not.

 

But here's a few more: Dorian, Calpernia, Maevaris, Ameridan, Malcom Hawke, Archon darinius, Archon Hessarian, Archon Tidarion.

[Catilina]

Give us an example of a good mage ruler in Thedas please. I will wager that you will not find any. The only one I can think of is Keeper Deshanna Istimaethoriel Lavellan, only if the Elven protagonist managed to allow Clan Lavellan to rule Wycome.

 

Otherwise, all the mage rulers we have seen are bad ones. The Evanuris including Solas and Mythal are not nice. The Magisterium with their Archon are not nice either. Heck, Divine Vivienne is not a good Divine since she rules with an authoritarian hand and perverts the Chant of Light intent to the point Cassandra, a very devout Andrastian, leaves her position within the Chantry hierarchy.

 

So good mage rules are minority to the point they are statistically insignificant. You could even say that Keeper Deshanna is an anomaly in this regard.

Good ruler is hard to find, no matter that mage or non mage. The power can corrupt anyone. 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Bayonet anyone who has magic is a bad ruler to you because if they have power and you don't they're bad. Doesn't matter if they're compassionate, if they forged the first empires, if they create wonders, its you insecurity that prevents you from being objective. The fact that Solas was able to cast down gods, or Ameriden saved the world countless times, or that mages created the Grey Warden rituals who stopped the blight mean nothing to you because at the end of the day you're weak and they're not.

 

But here's a few more: Dorian, Calpernia, Maevaris, Ameridan, Malcom Hawke, Archon darinius, Archon Hessarian, Archon Tidarion.

 

Dorian becomes a Magister post-Trespasser. Maevaris is on the Magisterium far longer. However, both of them have not exactly achieved much of anything, have they ?

 

Malcolm Hawke is not a ruler. Calpernia is responsible for many atrocities before the Inquisitor perhaps chooses to explain the situation to her.

 

Tevinter Archons are not good rulers. They get to where they are are through scheming, backstabbing, assassinations and Blood Magic.
 

[Sports72Xtrm]

Tevinter Archons are not good rulers. They get to where they are are through scheming, backstabbing, assassinations and Blood Magic.

 

So you agree they are as adept at ruling as the muggles, they just have more tools at their disposal. Glad that's settled then.

[Lulupab]

You are looking for a "good" mage ruler, knowing mages cannot be rulers in 9/10 of the world. OK. 

[MisterJB]

I must say, I appreciate Sports' honesty, at least.

None of this hiding one's true intentions and opinions behind a façade of fairness or equal rights. Normal people and mages are different groups and the only rule is survival of the fittest.

[Dean_the_Young]

Good ruler is hard to find, no matter that mage or non mage. The power can corrupt anyone. 

 

Something we agree on! Now, to build on this piece of agreement, would you agree that greater power is more like to corrupt?

 

Or could make equal amounts of corruption of person have unequal harmful effects on others?

[Catilina]

Something we agree on! Now, to build on this piece of agreement, would you agree that greater power is more like to corrupt?

 

Or could make equal amounts of corruption of person have unequal harmful effects on others?

One mage ruler or one non-mage ruler? I don't see difference. The mage ruler know much type of dangerous magic,  the non mage ruler can hire mages, who know much type of dangerous magic.