1158 réponses à ce sujet

[Melbella]

How is it the mages fault when Fiona was the one who made the deal and the majority of mages are openly against the deal?

 

They don't agree, but they don't disagree enough to do anything about it. The only one who even thinks to ask to join the Inquisition is the Tranquil, Clemence.

 

This is part of the problem with the Circle system.....mages aren't taught to think or be independent. They are taught to obey, just like the Templars. When they get away from that system, they're a little like the Tal'Vashoth in Kirkwall - all rage and rebellion, but no sense (except for Maraas).

[thats1evildude]

They don't agree, but they don't disagree enough to do anything about it. The only one who even thinks to ask to join the Inquisition is the Tranquil, Clemence.

 

"You've got to help us, Inquisitor! We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas!"

 

[thesuperdarkone2]

They don't agree, but they don't disagree enough to do anything about it. The only one who even thinks to ask to join the Inquisition is the Tranquil, Clemence.

 

This is part of the problem with the Circle system.....mages aren't taught to think or be independent. They are taught to obey, just like the Templars. When they get away from that system, they're a little like the Tal'Vashoth in Kirkwall - all rage and rebellion, but no sense (except for Maraas).

So what exactly do you think the mages should have done?

 

Seriously, templar supporters always say the mages should have done something yet never say exactly what.

[thats1evildude]

So what exactly do you think the mages should have done?

Refuse? It's not like the Venatori could force them to obey Corypheus. That was the whole point of using time travel to beat the Inquisition to Redcliffe, and then fooling a Fereldan arl into convincing them to sell out to Tevinter.

There's no indication that the mages were in immediate danger. I mean, they obviously felt secure enough at Redcliffe for their leader to come all the way to Val Royeaux to meet the Herald of Andraste.

So what was the impetus for selling their freedom to Tevinter? Because they couldn't win the war anymore? Tough s**t. If you're so eager to fight for freedom, at least have the strength of conviction to stick to your principles.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Refuse? It's not like the Venatori could force them to obey Corypheus. That was the whole point of using time travel to beat the Inquisition to Redcliffe, and then fooling a Fereldan arl into convincing them to sell out to Tevinter.

There's no indication that the mages were in immediate danger. I mean, they obviously felt secure enough at Redcliffe for their leader to come all the way to Val Royeaux to meet the Herald of Andraste.

So what was the impetus for selling their freedom to Tevinter? Because they couldn't win the war anymore? Tough s**t. If you're so eager to fight for freedom, at least have the strength of conviction to stick to your principles.

If they did refuse, there would literally be no conflict in choosing the mages and little reason to ever go with the templars.

 

Imagine if the game went like this:

 

Inquisitor: Mages, we need your help to close the breach

 

Mages: Ok, we join the Inquisition

 

Mages join inquisition

 

 

That's how things would go down.  We both know the mages didn't refuse and join the Inquisition immediately was because the writers needed a quest and we wouldn't learn about cory's plans. The same reason why Orsino goes crazy if you side with the mages in DA2 as the writers needed another boss fight.

 

Also, you're forgetting that Fiona coming to Val Royeaux was pre-time travel, plus venatori agents posing as refugees made the templars seem like worse threats than they were which isn't to say they weren't a threat as templars did attack Redcliffe as the healer says she healed people wounded by attacks by templars in Redcliffe.

[thats1evildude]

I know that things have to go wrong for there to be an actual story. It doesn't excuse stupid decisions.

 

At the end of the day, no matter how the Venatori stacked the deck against her, Fiona still had free will. She still said "Yes" when Alexius offered to help her win the war in exchange for selling themselves into slavery. And the mages under her command still went along with it, despite recognizing that it was a bad idea.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I know that things have to go wrong for there to be an actual story. It doesn't excuse stupid decisions.

At the end of the day, no matter how the Venatori stacked the deck against her, Fiona still had free will. She still said "Yes" when Alexius offered to help her win the war in exchange for selling themselves into slavery. And the mages under her command still went along with it, despite recognizing that it was a bad idea.

What else could they do? Fight the Venatori who are in a defensible position, are likely more skilled mages, and afterwards get exiled by Ferelden as the Venatori ensured the mages literally had no where else to go?

[Sports72Xtrm]

People who go to the mages are either prideful or compassionate. They think, these people need help or suspect that something is amiss with Fiona not remembering their meeting. The Inquisitor would have to be brave to risk his own neck for these people and think that he could talk sense into them. Those that go to the Templars are more pragmatic or spiteful. Before, when Fiona asked for the Inquisitor in Val Rayoux, it was equals trying to align interests. Once they realize that Fiona has been duped into being an associate of Tevinter, people who aren't compassionate will just let them be thrown to the wolves.

 

So they go to the Templars, even though the Inquisitor would literally have to beg them for help; since for all they knew, the Templars just told everyone in Orlais to F'off and turned a blind eye to the rebel templars or the poisoning of the brother templars like a bunch of jerks. But they're not seen as weak even though coincidentally, the templars are being ordered to become monsters and the inquisitor saves all their lives. Both groups are being duped and corrupted, but only Fiona and the mages are being hated for incompetence.

[thats1evildude]

What else could they do? Fight the Venatori who are in a defensible position, are likely more skilled mages, and afterwards get exiled by Ferelden as the Venatori ensured the mages literally had no where else to go?

They've taken over Redcliffe because the rebel mages allowed it. That's like spreading food all over your carpet and then complaining when you get ants in your house.

Again, if the Venatori could force compliance, then there wouldn't be the need for all the trickery.

And they only got exiled from Ferelden for allying with Tevinter!

[Sports72Xtrm]

Which is worse? A person who makes a split second bad decision out of fear, or a person who continues to make bad decisions because they are resigned to this is how things are and you must follow orders?

[Hellion Rex]

Which is worse? A person who makes a split second bad decision out of fear, or a person who continues to make bad decisions because they are resigned to this is how things are and you must follow orders?

Who are you even referring to here? Because that doesn't describe anyone from Champions of the Just if that is the parallel you are attempting. Fiona didn't have an equivalent on the Templar side who made an absolutely dumb decision.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Well, actually Lord Seeker Lucius was the Fiona equivalent for Templars. He's a Seeker, he knows what demons are, how not to make deals with them, cant' be possessed etc.. and yet he willingly allows Envy to become him?!?!?! Might top Fiona there. True, he is Lord Seeker and not a Templar but still, he allowed Envy to take command of the Templars.

 

Again we are faced with choosing between tow wrongs and trying to get a right by doing so. Just doesn't work, never has and never will but, that's what keeps the series going. I just wonder what our forced bad decisions will get Thedas into next LOL. Templars or Mages endorsed and supported by the mighty Inquisition. Even if you conscripted them, years later they will not admit to that and, will claim to be the blessed allies of the Herald of Andraste while the other side will claim that whatever ills befell them was all the Inquisition's fault because you chose to help the other side and ignored them when they needed help.

 

Either way, both sides are going to make a mess of whatever you did in DAI - that's Thedas for you.

[Hellion Rex]

Well, actually Lord Seeker Lucius was the Fiona equivalent for Templars. He's a Seeker, he knows what demons are, how not to make deals with them, cant' be possessed etc.. and yet he willingly allows Envy to become him?!?!?! Might top Fiona there. True, he is Lord Seeker and not a Templar but still, he allowed Envy to take command of the Templars.

Again we are faced with choosing between tow wrongs and trying to get a right by doing so. Just doesn't work, never has and never will but, that's what keeps the series going. I just wonder what our forced bad decisions will get Thedas into next LOL. Templars or Mages endorsed and supported by the mighty Inquisition. Even if you conscripted them, years later they will not admit to that and, will claim to be the blessed allies of the Herald of Andraste while the other side will claim that whatever ills befell them was all the Inquisition's fault because you chose to help the other side and ignored them when they needed help.

Either way, both sides are going to make a mess of whatever you did in DAI - that's Thedas for you.

Ok, I stand corrected. Totally forgot Lucius, but I got the sense that the other poster was referring to someone else?

[midnight tea]

Well, actually Lord Seeker Lucius was the Fiona equivalent for Templars. He's a Seeker, he knows what demons are, how not to make deals with them, cant' be possessed etc.. and yet he willingly allows Envy to become him?!?!?! Might top Fiona there. True, he is Lord Seeker and not a Templar but still, he allowed Envy to take command of the Templars.

 

 

Yup, and Templars' embarrassment with not detecting that they're following a demon is actually addressed in the game: they fell prey to the very same powers they've sworn to protect Thedas from. Not to mention - aside from a few individuals - nobody has really questioned switching their lyrium supplies from blue to red. Like... wasn't that suspicious? Especially that RL has quite an immediate effect on people. All in all they were manipulated, but so was Fiona - scaring someone into agreeing to what they think is their only option appears to be Corypheus' modus operandi. After all same thing happened to Wardens.

 

Either way I don't find the side as unbalanced as some do. Mages have their problems and Templars have problems. And both have suffered from Chantry propaganda or societal pressures, turning them either to leashed bullies purposefully addicted to powers they have little to no understanding of or oppressed minority conditioned to sit in their golden cage under pretense that they're ticking time-bombs. That in itself has also been addressed directly in the game, by none other than out favorite apostate hobo.

[Barquiel]

Oh, another mage vs templar thread   

Personally, I am against the very concept of isolating people based on what they MIGHT do some time in the future while being watched 24/7 by religious fanatics who think having magic is a curse - therefore none of the mage/templar decisions in the series were very difficult for me.

[Hellion Rex]

Oh, another mage vs templar thread

Personally, I am against the very concept of isolating people based on what they MIGHT do some time in the future while being watched 24/7 by religious fanatics who think having magic is a curse - therefore none of the mage/templar decisions in the series were very difficult for me.

Wow, isn't it a bit of generalization to say that all Tenplars are religious fanatics and think magic is a curse? Cause that's not even remotely true of them all.

[Hellion Rex]

Of the games, the only one I felt was unbalanced was DA2. It felt way too heavy handed and one sided on the mages end of the equation, so I wish it had shown a little more pro Templar stuff. I ultimately found Meredith to be the more compelling of the two faction leaders. Prior to making the big choice, I wish we had gotten some more nuance to help make the decision not feel so one sided, as while I definitely chose to side with the mages at the game's end, I still felt railroaded into it, still felt like that was the only option possible. For me, it felt like there was no reason at all to consider a Templar route cause it literally equated to kill all the Circle mages because of the acts of one idiotic apostate.

[Jaison1986]

Wow, isn't it a bit of generalization to say that all Tenplars are religious fanatics and think magic is a curse? Cause that's not even remotely true of them all.

 

Not all of them, no. But the gits of it is that templars join their order usually because they think it's their holy duty. Not because of practical or realistic reasons. And ultimately leads to developing fanatical ideals. Perish the thought, that people won't be resonable when they make decisions based on faith rather then reason. Isn't that after all, Leliana argument with Shale? Faith is ultimately illogical. How can we give such immense power to illogical individuals?

[Barquiel]

Wow, isn't it a bit of generalization to say that all Tenplars are religious fanatics and think magic is a curse? Cause that's not even remotely true of them all.

 

According to the codex templars as a group are selected for the religious zeal in preference to their moral stance, so you can accurately guess that the average templar is strongly religious. Putting mages at the mercy of such people who are taught that they have "dominion over mages by divine right" was simlpy a terrible idea, especially because the Chantry has vilified mages and magic for centuries, teaching that magic is a curse and a sin mages can never be freed from.

[Lord of War]

According to the codex templars as a group are selected for the religious zeal in preference to their moral stance, so you can accurately guess that the average templar is strongly religious. Putting mages at the mercy of such people who are taught that they have "dominion over mages by divine right" was simlpy a terrible idea, especially because the Chantry has vilified mages and magic for centuries, teaching that magic is a curse and a sin mages can never be freed from.

 

Yes.

 

Mages do need somewhere to train and gain understanding of their power, but the Chantry isn't capable of providing it. Do places like that need a few guards, in case of accidents? Yes, but the Templars are utterly unsuited to that role.

 

That's the thing, the purpose of the Templars: to serve as the Chantry's jackboots, or to throw a gigantic murderous tantrum when the Chantry won't let them be brutal enough. They don't have a place in a just or rational Thedas.

[straykat]

Not only is "freeing the oppressed" inherently appealing for many, but then you have the added on, in-game example of Andraste to add on an irony. Thedas' biggest hero freed the oppressed too. The writers themselves are championing this attitude in their deepest myths. So you don't just have your own ethical reasons to do it. You have good narrative ones too.

[PapaCharlie9]

Oh, another mage vs templar thread 

It kind of predictably devolved into that, but the OP is still, at least to me, a fresh idea. Where is the narrative that gives players a reason to want to support the Templars? In a positive way, not in a lesser-of-evils way? Where are Templars shown in a sympathetic light? In a way that isn't just dialogue with characters?

Are we to understand that DAI is "dark" in mood and theme, because every major faction is shown to be a dupe of evil, one way or the other? Mages and Templars (not to mention the GW) are duped by the forces of Coryphish. Is that where the balance is? A pox on both their houses?

And yet ...
 

Not only is "freeing the oppressed" inherently appealing for many, but then you have the added on, in-game example of Andraste to add on an irony. Thedas' biggest hero freed the oppressed too. The writers themselves are championing this attitude in their deepest myths. So you don't just have your own ethical reasons to do it. You have good narrative ones too.

Exactly. Every major institution of Southern Thedas is brought low so that the Inquisitor can shine. I suppose that is balance, in a way.

[straykat]

I kind of predictably devolved into that, but the OP is still, at least to me, a fresh idea. Where is the narrative that gives players a reason to want to support the Templars? In a positive way, not in a lesser-of-evils way? Where are Templars shown in a sympathetic light? In a way that isn't just dialogue with characters?

 

I don't think it can be argued well, when most players come from western democracies with a long liberal tradition. We champion the individual spirit. And we're not even in the category that communists are...where they "liberate", but are still highly collectivist. That makes many people recoil too.

 

Maybe bring the game to Saudi Arabia and you'll get a different take. Assuming they'd allow it.....which they wouldn't 

[PapaCharlie9]

I don't think it can be argued well, when most players come from western democracies with a long liberal tradition. We champion the individual spirit. And we're not even in the category that communists are...where they "liberate", but are still highly collectivist. That makes many people recoil too.
 
Maybe bring the game to Saudi Arabia and you'll get a different take. Assuming they'd allow it.....which they wouldn't 

I made the point earlier that showing Templars in a positive light wouldn't be that hard. Show an emergent mage in danger of being lynched by a muggle mob and a Templar comes to the rescue, and maybe they are both chased by a local noble that hunts mages for sport. This is not a new idea: the oppressed mutant youth being rescued by Professor Xavier's School For Gifted Youngsters.

[Lord of War]

It kind of predictably devolved into that, but the OP is still, at least to me, a fresh idea. Where is the narrative that gives players a reason to want to support the Templars? In a positive way, not in a lesser-of-evils way? Where are Templars shown in a sympathetic light? In a way that isn't just dialogue with characters?
 

 

There really isn't one, and that's the way it should be. The Templar argument is in no way equal to the mages' unless you happen to be a Chantry zealot. The Chantry and it's Order of thugs has duped Thedas since their founding, perpetuating crimes and evils that massively outweigh anything even Corypheus does (in Inquisition, at least).