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Templars vs mages: A fundamental flaw.


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#501
Sports72Xtrm

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Tevinter is dependent on its mundane population. The difference is that, in their culture, being born with magic is a huge blessing that marks one for greatness... even if that greatness may end up being a pencil pusher.

Edit: The general populace supports mage rule, or at least enough of the general population (not including slaves, I mean citizens).

At least magic has tangible benefits to the nation. It could heal illnesses, burn enemies alive, enchant items. It holds a lot more logical weight than some mundane claiming to be king because his great grand-daddy did some good stuff. Who can argue that the former's power is more earned than the latter?



#502
Dean_the_Young

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Not at all. It is true that a mage more powerful and dangerous than a warrior. The demons are more likely to find him, because he is in connection with the Fade. Yes. I did never said: not. I said, however, that the mages should not deserve jail time, just because he can be evil. 

 

By this logic we should jail exclude all the children who have a talent for persuasion, and shows interest to politics. ;)

 

So, more power does NOT corrupt more in frequency and degree? Let's pursue this, then.

 

Why do you think power corrupts at all, then?

 

Power, after all, is a relative relationship dynamic between two parties. What about relative power differences makes it that so that the existence, but not the degree, of an imbalance of power is solely tied to the harmful abuses of corruption? Is the potential for abusive corruption of a local guardsman the same as it is for the head of a massive institution with its own spy network?

 

Why doesn't greater ability and opportunity for corruption encourage greater degree or frequency of corruption? What's the limiting principle?



#503
Qun00

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Andraste's granny pants, 21 pages!

The subject isn't as dead as I'd thought.

#504
Daerog

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Boredom never dies!
  • phoray aime ceci

#505
Bardox9

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We've had to choose between the two sides in all three games and the large majority of players choose mages without thinking twice.

And why wouldn't they? One's first instinct is to help the oppressed. But if it is to be presented as a choice, it shouldn't be so black and white.

While there are a few reasons to be pro Circle and respect the templars' real purpose, the games failed to provide one that is just as compelling as the noble cause of mage freedom.

Which side I choose often depends on the character I am playing and how they would view the issue. Personally, I am a pro-Circle person. Yes, it's not right how mages are simply locked away simply for being born with abilities others do not have, but without proper training, that power can destroy them and many innocents around them. The missions of Redcliff in DA:O is evidence of this. Then there are the fearful masses that would just as soon behead a mage as allow one to live in their town. As Irving said, "The towers walls protect us as much as they protect others from us."

 

The Gallows was different. Everything that could go wrong, did go wrong in that Circle. I blame that entirely on Orsino. He was a weak, horrible First Enchanter. If he had done his job the way Irving did, things would never had escalated the way they did. Meredith may have used some extreme measures, but what choice did Orsino leave her? From the first act we see blood mages and demons pouring out of the Circle. For a circle to run properly, the Knight Commander and First Enchanter must cooperate. Otherwise the Circle cannot function and will fail and the mages are the ones who suffer for it.

 

In DA:I, the choice between the Mage arc and the Templar arc is less about the two factions and more about which would be more effective at helping to seal the giant hole in the sky. For this purpose, the mages make more sense to me, though the Templar side is a much more interesting arc, IMO. But there is also the Tervinter involvement to consider. Do you really want to leave those mages, who are not technically part of the rebellion, at the mercy of an obviously corrupt magister? Never mind Cory's connection to what's happening in Redcliff.

 

Besides, I would much rather those mages be where I can see them and convert a part of Skyhold into a mini-Circle. My Inquisitor would have to be a blindly devote Andrastian, which I have played a couple of those, to go for the Templars. The Circle is not perfect by any means, but it's the least crappy of the available options when it comes to how society deals with magic. 


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#506
straykat

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Hardened Leliana takes care of any resistance almost instantly two times, one after epilogue and another time after events of Trespasser. If you want someone who can deal with Vivienne, its Leliana. If you make Leliana divine, Vivienne is severely outclassed and out of her league.

 

Although Vivienne takes that position in all the endings. But still if she is going to be a problem other than a independent circle, Leliana is best candidate to deal with her.

 

Hardened Leliana is a lamer... kind of defeats the purpose why I liked her in the first place 

 

Plus, my romanced Warden is dead... I'd rather her not stew in misery. Not when I have a choice.  :P



#507
raging_monkey

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Hardened Leliana is a lamer... kind of defeats the purpose why I liked her in the first place

Plus, my romanced Warden is dead... I'd rather her not stew in misery. Not when I have a choice. :P

you had a choice lol

#508
Asha'bellanar

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So what exactly do you think the mages should have done?

 

Seriously, templar supporters always say the mages should have done something yet never say exactly what.

First: I'm not a "templar supporter". I've always sided with the mages, but the rebel mages in DA:I really made me question things.

 

As for what they should have done, perhaps they should have gone to the Arl of Redcliffe in his extremely defensible castle and asked for refuge from the supposed hoarde of templars that were coming after them. After all, they were in Redcliffe at the invitation of the Crown, and presumably at least somewhat under the protection of the Crown. If nothing else, the arl would not have wanted to see the templar/mage war that close to his doorstep. He could have easily housed the rebel mages in the castle (in the dungeons, if necessary) while sending word to Denerim asking for reinforcements and perhaps advisors.

 

Perhaps this would have failed, sure, but they didn't do anything of the sort. They just went, "Oooh, these random Tevinter Magisters are here to tell us the templars are coming for us, let's just enslave ourselves to them! We have no choice!"

 

Not all the mages supported Fiona's decision, but even those who disagreed went along with it, for a variety of reasons. Mostly, I think they just didn't have a lot of critical thinking skills after living their entire lives in a monitored institution, nor the will to rebel further, and that's understandable. But Fiona was a former slave and a Grey Warden. She should have had the ability to think it through with a little more clarity than taking the first (terrible) option that presented itself.



#509
straykat

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you had a choice lol

 

No, I agree.. I mean I do have a choice. I wouldn't pick Hardened willingly. The only way I'd accept it if it was forced on me. 



#510
raging_monkey

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No, I agree.. I mean I do have a choice. I wouldn't pick Hardened willingly. The only way I'd accept it if it was forced on me.

hehe I ment making the warden live but that's funny too

#511
straykat

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The US was my first playthrough, so I've sort of grown attached...

 

But I had other stories. They just sucked. Especially my evil Warden. Redcliffe looks the same and built a damn statue still, everyone lauds the HoF, Cass and Leliana wanted them for Inquisitor....even though he killed Leliana and defile their dearest beliefs. It's so half assed that I'm better off deleting it.

 

I have one living Warden now.. a dwarf female who sacrificed Loghain and ran off with Zevran. This works enough for me. I just don't know if I'll ever play DAI enough to get to it.



#512
raging_monkey

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Firsts usually are canon right

#513
straykat

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Kind of... When I found out you could recruit Loghain later, I really wanted to like that... and drunk Alistair in DA2 :P

 

But I've gone back to my instincts.



#514
Lulupab

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I made the "best" decision in all political quests of my first playthroughs so far, which made me a bit proud of myself tbh. I made Alistair king and married to Anora and recruited Loghain without any firsthand knowledge it could have been done. 

 

Of course by "best" I mean the extra things you can achieve with correct boot licking, intimidation etc... in DA:I its easy to make Celene or Gaspard rule alone, but reuniting Celene and Briala and making Gaspard bow to blackmails of Briala requires quite a bit of effort if you want to do it the first time without any help. Maybe that's what I liked about it, I got to play the game even if it was brief and I liked it. 



#515
Lulupab

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I hope we get to explore the nobility part of mages on Tevinter when the next game comes out. Like making the mage background noble by default or if in case of several backgrounds like in DAO the option to choose noble. In a sense completely opposite of games so far. Warriors and Rogues cannot be nobles, only mages can.

 

This should give enough perspective on the matter.



#516
Xilizhra

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I disagree with the thread's premise. Not everything needs to be on a perfectly equal moral plane, and no further degrees of gray were necessary, given all the templar supporters out there to begin with.



#517
Catilina

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I disagree with the thread's premise. Not everything needs to be on a perfectly equal moral plane, and no further degrees of gray were necessary, given all the templar supporters out there to begin with.

What is the "grey" solution?

 

(Too many moralist, dedicated "lawful neutral" here, and freedom fighter... of course.)



#518
Xilizhra

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What is the "grey" solution?

 

(Too many moralist, dedicated "lawful neutral" here, and freedom fighter... of course.)

Which type of gray are you referring to?



#519
Catilina

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Which type of gray are you referring to?

The gray have much shades. Just asked. You have good solution to mage–templar conflict?

 

My concept (not perfect): the Circles operate as science centers, school, library, and research (etc.). Compulsory education for the mage children (boarding school / college system), but the family can visit them, and the child can go home from time to time. The mages have freedom (but I don't totally reject the phylactery system: the registration and monitoring of mages I do not think it is completely wrong thing).



#520
Xilizhra

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The gray have much shades.

Fifty, by any chance?

 

 

Just asked. You have good solution to mage–templar conflict?

No, due to a profound lack of useful information. However, Leliana's solution as Divine seems to be working out quite well, so I'm willing to keep going with that.


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#521
Catilina

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Fifty, by any chance?

More :)



#522
MisterJB

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I wonder what would happen if you grabbed a group of mages and, under Templar supervision, have them work in the fields or mines for a month, without magic?

I imagine they'd be begging to return to the Circles after a week, tops.



#523
Catilina

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I wonder what would happen if you grabbed a group of mages and, under Templar supervision, have them work in the fields or mines for a month, without magic?

I imagine they'd bee begging to return to the Circles after a week, tops.

A mage useful thing. Do not need to worry about his/her livelihood. Not to mention, there is the man, who does not want to live also in the GOLDEN cage. You can't imagine that?



#524
Xilizhra

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I wonder what would happen if you grabbed a group of mages and, under Templar supervision, have them work in the fields or mines for a month, without magic?

I imagine they'd be begging to return to the Circles after a week, tops.

Who would be so silly? Even the qunari have their mages use magic.



#525
thesuperdarkone2

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Who would be so silly? Even the qunari have their mages use magic.

Not to mention that hypothetical makes no sense. Who would put mages to work in the mine? If they have templars, the circle system still exists so why are the mages even working in the mine in the first place? Plus, if the mine owner has mages, why the hell are they working instead of just using magic for things like lifting rocks?

 

That hypothetical just makes little sense when you think about it. Is JB even trying?