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[fhs33721]

I wonder what would happen if you grabbed a group of mages and, under Templar supervision, have them work in the fields or mines for a month, without magic?

I imagine they'd be begging to return to the Circles after a week, tops.

Depends, will the templars actually make an effort to stop their more sadistic members from the usual nonsense during this or not. Because if not, then of course the mages will want back to the circle since being absused while studying magic is objectively preferable to being abused while having to do hard physical work.

[Daerog]

Depends, will the templars actually make an effort to stop their more sadistic members from the usual nonsense during this or not. Because if not, then of course the mages will want back to the circle since being absused while studying magic is objectively preferable to being abused while having to do hard physical work.

Well, not all Circles have consistant/constant abuse, not all Templars abuse, not all mages experience abuse. So, even without abuse being assumed, I think JB was just saying mages are delicate flowers that don't know the hardship of the everyman.

Certainly a lot of mages bailed on Fiona and none grew up in physical hardship, so... ya, they'd suck at physical labor.

It is good for mages to have physical excersise, for health and strong minds, and they do excersise. Mages are supervised, but enchanters, or maybe just senior enchanters, don't always need or get supervised. How else would First Enchanter Remille speak with Archie, practice blight magic, and do unsanctioned enchantments on a dagger he kept? Fereldan Templars don't watch senior enchanters much, I wonder if that is the norm or Fereldan Templars are lax (Lambert taking over Templar duties in White Spire and the stuff in Kirkwall are out of the norm, obviously.)

[MisterJB]

Not to mention that hypothetical makes no sense. Who would put mages to work in the mine? If they have templars, the circle system still exists so why are the mages even working in the mine in the first place? Plus, if the mine owner has mages, why the hell are they working instead of just using magic for things like lifting rocks?

 

That hypothetical just makes little sense when you think about it. Is JB even trying?

Yes, it is quite a chore to try and get a point through to some of you; particularly some who still haven't figured it out Dean was being ironic in a certain other thread; but I do try.

 

The point being that mages, who romanticize freedom and the outside world and whose hardest labor they have ever performed was waving their fingers around, fail to take into account that the world is dirty, cold, harsh, full of sickness and banditry and people break their backs every day in order to earn pittances to pay taxes written in words they can't even read while they are accostumed to free food, education, healthcare, palatial accomodations and, again, the extent of their labor being waving their fingers around.

 

Which leads us to yet another point which is that if mages when confronted with the reality of what the overwhelming majority of Thedosians face everyday balk at it, this completely undermines the pro-mage rethoric where they are the opressed, lower class in need of help and that freedom is somehow the solution to all life's problems

 

Have to spell everything for some people...

[MisterJB]

Depends, will the templars actually make an effort to stop their more sadistic members from the usual nonsense during this or not. Because if not, then of course the mages will want back to the circle since being absused while studying magic is objectively preferable to being abused while having to do hard physical work.

 

At least you understood.

 

However, not only is the idea that a mage can't go a month in his life without being abused ridiculous; just as there are abusive Templars, there are also abusive guards and nobles hence, that is no excuse.
 

[thesuperdarkone2]

Well, not all Circles have consistant/constant abuse, not all Templars abuse, not all mages experience abuse. So, even without abuse being assumed, I think JB was just saying mages are delicate flowers that don't know the hardship of the everyman.

Certainly a lot of mages bailed on Fiona and none grew up in physical hardship, so... ya, they'd suck at physical labor.

It is good for mages to have physical excersise, for health and strong minds, and they do excersise. Mages are supervised, but enchanters, or maybe just senior enchanters, don't always need or get supervised. How else would First Enchanter Remille speak with Archie, practice blight magic, and do unsanctioned enchantments on a dagger he kept? Fereldan Templars don't watch senior enchanters much, I wonder if that is the norm or Fereldan Templars are lax (Lambert taking over Templar duties in White Spire and the stuff in Kirkwall are out of the norm, obviously.)

Course you need to remember that abuse was prevalent even in the apparently liberal circles. Cole's dialogue pretty much says that there were rapes and making people tranquil for to become sex slaves like in Kirkwall, and in Asunder, the first chapter openly states the templars in the White Spire fear and hate mages. Heck, in Ch 1, Cole is just spying on the mages and he spies on 2 mages talking after a female mage was just done being beaten by templars.

 

Yeah, that didn't really endear me to the templars.

[fhs33721]

Well, not all Circles have consistant/constant abuse, not all Templars abuse, not all mages experience abuse. So, even without abuse being assumed, I think JB was just saying mages are delicate flowers that don't know the hardship of the everyman.

Well, we have definite proof that in at least 2 circles (Kirkwall and White spire) abuse was very frequent, so there is that. And I still fail to see how the argument of "mages not knowing the hardship of everyman" somehow invalidates their desire not to be abused by their templar overseers.

 

However, not only is the idea that a mage can't go a month in his life without being abused ridiculous; just as there are abusive Templars, there are also abusive guards and nobles hence, that is no excuse.

What kind of argument are you making here? That mages shouldn't complain about abusive templars because abusive nobles terrorize the peasants outside the circle? I continue to fail to see how the average living conditions of normal Thedosian people invalidate any valid criticism of how circles are (or rather were as of DAI) currently run. Is this the age old "Someone else has it even worse than you, so don't you dare wanting to improve your own situation" argument?

Also excuse for what? For not wanting to be beaten up, blackmailed into sex or being lobotomized at the drop of a hat?

[MisterJB]

Well, we have definite proof that in at least 2 circles (Kirkwall and White spire) abuse was very frequent, so there is that.

We have absolutely no reason to believe abuse was frequent in the White Spire.

And even in Kirkwall, it depends on what one would consider abuse and when something becomes frequent.

 

 

And I still fail to see how the argument of "mages not knowing the hardship of everyman" somehow invalidates their desire not to be abused by their templar overseers.

Except that is not the desire of most of the pro-mages on these forums.

Their desires is to free the mages and that would worsen the living conditions of the people of Thedas. Hence, what is being asked is to worsen the lives of the majority of people in order to improve the lives of an already upper class.

 

[Daerog]

Abuse is frequent in current times (in Kirkwall and WS at least). Templars are abusing their power more and more in recent times (in Kirkwall and WS at least). The Circle was not always how it is in the Dragon or Blessed Age. The Divine also saw the need for changes, and Lambert wanted to oppose the Chantry, so things were going downhill, but that doesn't mean these things are the status quo since the creation of the Circle.

I don't support the abuse of the Templars, because the abuse does go against the Chantry and Circle rules. I am in no way trying to justify the abuses.

The naivete of the libertarians and resolutionists does not invalidate their desire to not be abused. No one should be starved to death or raped, but those things are not common in the system. They were possibly common in Kirkwall because that is where the rapist was. One Templar isn't a pattern, but it was stupid how much some Templars got away with in Kirkwall. The mage authority in Kirkwall just made things worse.

I support the Templars as they are meant to be, like Ser Barris, and I support the Circle as it was designed to be by mages and the Chantry. Not that this matters anymore, but there isn't much to talk about until we know how the College and new Circle work.

Edit: made some edits.

[The Baconer]

And even in Kirkwall, it depends on what one would consider abuse and when something becomes frequent.

 

That's so weak. 

[fhs33721]

We have absolutely no reason to believe abuse was frequent in the White Spire.

And even in Kirkwall, it depends on what one would consider abuse and when something becomes frequent.

No reason to believe that aside from the following Cole banter you mean?

 

Cassandra: What the Templars did to you, to the real Cole... I knew the treatment was harsh, but...

• Cole: There were beatings, worse than beatings. "If you tell anyone, I'll say you used blood magic."
• Cole: Not all Templars were like that. But not enough could stand up to the ones who were.
• Cassandra: Whatever happens in the future, there will be changes to how Templars and mages govern themselves.
• Cassandra: The Inquisition may have a say in such changes. I... would appreciate any insight you might have.
• Cole: You'd take advice from a demon?
• Cassandra: I'll take it. I'm not promising to follow it.

Or alternatively that one:

Cassandra: What the Templars did to you, to the real Cole... I knew the treatment was harsh, but...

• Cole: Yes. Beatings, worse. "Do you remember telling me no? You can't do that now. The Tranquil don't say no to anything."
• Cassandra: Maker's breath!
• Cole: Not all, but enough. The good templars were too afraid to stop the others.
• Cassandra: Whatever happens in the future, there will be changes to how templars and mages govern themselves.
• Cassandra: The Inquisition may have a say in such changes. I... would appreciate any insight you might have.
• Cole: Compassion and faith. Not all, but a start. I can help. I can try.

This does not sound like something that happened only once. And really? No frequent abuse in the Kirkwall circle? That's what you are trying to argue here? Might as well defend Vaughn Kendell next while you are at it.

 

Except that is not the desire of most of the pro-mages on these forums.

Their desires is to free the mages and that would worsen the living conditions of the people of Thedas. Hence, what is being asked is to worsen the lives of the majority of people in order to improve the lives of an already upper class.

As I said before I see the merit in the circle system, I just think that it is in dire need of reforms. A lot of reforms. The seekers actually doing their job for once, instead of trying to sabotage divine-sanctioned research or making deals with demons, would be a good start as well I guess.

[thats1evildude]

Yes. As long as the Templars are oppressors, as long as the hold the mages prisoner in the Circles, they're fair game.

Sic semper tyrannis

You know that's what John Wilkes Booth shouted after he shot Abraham Lincoln, right?

The irony of quoting a man famously in favour of slavery to justify killing templars is pretty delicious.

[ShadowLordXII]

The big problem with this conflict is that we're given a false dichotomy between mages and templars when the root of the conflict can be tracked to Chantry teachings and practices. But the player is never allowed to directly address this nor able to directly call-out/criticize the Chantry for this stuff in a meaningful way.

 

The idea is a decent one, one of where we have a grey-grey conflict with no clearly right or wrong answer. However it seems that the facts and context of the entire social strata paint a very different picture. One where inherent flaws in the system perpetuate tension which builds and builds until it explodes.

 

The entire Circle system is a blunt overreaction to the tyranny of the Tevinter Magisters where instead of being in charge, mages are isolated and trained to serve Chantry society. They are not allowed to have families; To live outside of the Circle; Can only travel outside of the Circle with Chantry permission; and can be killed or lobotomized at will if their templar jailers deem them as a threat. Their every movement is also tracked via blood magic...magic which mages aren't allowed to use, but it's okay when the Chantry does it apparently.

 

They are also taught that they are ticking time bombs and that the fact that they exist makes them a threat to themselves and to others. Worst is that general society is taught the same doctrine which means that people are indoctrinated to instinctively fear mages because of what they are rather than what they do. It's essentially a manifestation of Criminal Labeling Theory.

 

Templars on the other hand are ordinary men and women who are trained their whole life to uphold Chantry doctrine and to essentially obey said doctrine without question. Mainly so that they can cut down rogue mages and mages outside of the Circle without questioning their orders. It doesn't matter if the apostate is practicing blood magic or not, or if they're hurting anyone or not, they have to be brought into the Circle or get murdered.

 

And they do this through magic drawn from addictive lyrium consumption which will slowly rot their bodies/minds until they're left as a pathetic mess years later. So if one were to describe the Templar Order as an army of drug-addled magic knights, they would not be wrong. And the Chantry uses the lyrium trade to control the templars who are already addicted to the stuff. This is all made worst by the fact that lyrium may not even be necessary for a templar's abilities. (See Alistair in light of Cullen confirming that templars only take lyrium dosages after taking their vows)

 

Now the Seekers of Truth are meant to be a checks and balance on the Templars to keep them from abusing their power. But they failed. Partially because some of their own members are drawn from the templars anyway. And they're also an accessory to the Rite of Tranquility's persistence since the Seeker leaders use the cure for Tranquility as a means of gaining their unique powers.

 

And who set up this system? Who has authority over templars, mages and seekers? The Chantry. The templars are pre-set against mages due to Chantry doctrine, teachings and methods of control/influence; Mages are pressured and encouraged to rebel and seek forbidden arts due to being thrown onto Morton's fork and the Seekers are set-up to fail their oversight duties which make an already tense situation worst. Ironically, this means that the Templars are an inherent contradiction of the "Magic is meant to serve man and not rule him" clause and by extension, the Chantry is contradicting themselves by using said army of lyrium-addled magic knights; the Circle system actually encourages mages to be dangerous, use blood magic and consort with demons; and the Seekers essentially stand aside because many of its key members are templars themselves. And this was all done under the eyes of the Chantry.

 

Yet, the player never has an opportunity to be Anti-Chantry. To say that the Chantry is inherently at fault and needs to fundamentally change or be replaced with an entity closer to Andraste's teachings.  An odd dissonance considering that several Chantry-aligned characters in the game including Cullen, Cassandra, Leliana, Justinia, Gissel and more all admit that the Chantry needs reform. But the player themselves aren't allowed participate in any action that would actually create any reform. Even more odd considering that the PC is seen by many Andrastian Devout as a Savior Figure sent by the Maker and/or Andraste in their time of crisis. You'd think that we'd have an opportunity to use this influence and have a strong following willing and able to help create a true reform of the Chantry.

 

That doesn't happen because "plot" I guess. Even the election of the Divine is done without much player input and Trepasser retcons key differences between the three candidates to where the "choice" becomes meaningless. To the point where the Divine election is a choice as to which new hat that the same old man is going to wear rather than booting the old man altogether.

 

It's not grey and grey writing to black wash one or two factions at play and stay silent about the third key player in the room who did just as much to set up the conflict than the other two did. So the fact that the games talk so much about what templars and mages do and is comparatively silent about what the chantry did to set up the other two factions really breaks the impetus of the conflict. Picking at the branches while the roots remain untouched.

[Daerog]

When you get some bad Templars in one location, abuses will be made. A lot of abuses will be made if the cases are not dealt with swiftly.

We only know of abuse in Kirkwall and WS. Fereldan was alright, with the only problems coming from the mages... and a psycho Cullen, which I think was retconned. I think Fereldan was meant to show the norm, or at least how a Circle should be, when it comes to mage-templar relations, as it was the first game.

All else is speculation. The Ostwick Circle can be viewed as okay, but boring, until some mages rebelled and killed an enchanter.

[Daerog]

The Circle was not a response to the history of the magisters. The Chantry, which was built much later, originally housed mages and cared for them. The mages couldn't do much, since chantries are not suited for magical experiments, so the mages protested and an agreement set. The mages were moved to magical towers built by Tevinter, where they could study. Due to the inherent danger of magic, Templars are put in place.

Just saying that the Circle was not the first response. It came to be much later, and the mages were meant to manage themselves with Templar oversight. Recent times have Templars pushing themselves more into Circle politics. There are First Enchanters and Grand Enchanter for a reason.

I do like the idea of being able to more vocally oppose the Chantry, since that means one could possibly voice more support as well. I certainly enjoyed playing as a Loyalist in DAI.

However, saying "I am the Maker's chosen!" at the final battle with Cory is REALLY CONFUSING. Seriously, BW has no idea what the Chantry teaches. Does the Maker work in the world or not? Do they think the Maker tells Andraste to do stuff and she messes with the world? Does the Maker answer or even listen to prayers, or is that only Andraste?

Until BW can solidify what the Chantry actually believes and teaches, I don't have much ground to attack it on.

Edit: Also, if Drakon did receive a visitation from Andraste, who commanded him to build the Chantry as he did, then the Chantry is following Andraste's teachings and such. I don't know why people are saying otherwise, as the Chantry is more knowledgeable on Andraste than any other group.

For drama reasons, they could be wrong, but for drama reasons the southern Chantry may be right. The Imperial Chantry could be right instead, with teaching that only mages can be priests. Or, with how the Avvar, elves, and dwarves were handled, everyone could be right from a certain perspective.

Edit2: As for Alistair, I think a dev already said that Origins mishandled the whole lyrium and Templar thing. Iirc, they said lyrium is necessary for Templars, and you lose the gifts without lyrium. In light of Inquisition, a spirit touching you is permanent, but lyrium is temporary. Which begs the question of when the spirit thing was found because we know important First Inquisition people used lyrium for anti demon and anti mage reasons. The original Inquisitor permitted it.
Edit3: Ya, Gaider said Alistair took lyrium as a recruit. Check the wikia.

[MisterJB]

This does not sound like something that happened only once. And really? No frequent abuse in the Kirkwall circle? That's what you are trying to argue here? Might as well defend Vaughn Kendell next while you are at it.

Something happening more than once does not mean it is frequent especially when we don't have a specific timeframe to analyze as Cole could have been observing the workings of the White Spire over several lifetimes.

 

As for Kirkwall, define abuse and then prove it happened frequently, if you please.

[Daerog]

 
As for Kirkwall, define abuse and then prove it happened frequently, if you please.

There was Alrick who frequently broke the rules around Tranquility, and it is implied he took advantage of Tranquils, possibly rape. One Templar who frequently broke rules isn't a pattern, but still sucks that Meredith couldn't get to this problem because Orsino wasn't helping with the current blood mage problem, which did exist with Orsino at the center.

Mages were under isolated confinement, but that was probably in response to Templars knowing blood magic was being practiced and the FE not cooperating and protecting blood mages (like himself).

Remove Alrick and Orsino and Kirkwall would have been waaaaayyy better.

In my canon, Hawke defended the Circle because of Bethany and Meredith was getting unhinged, but I imagine Hawke facepalming when he sees Orsino do blood magic. The whole scene really encouraged the PC to defend rather than attack.

Meredith was getting corrupted by red lyrium and desperation to prevent a possible disaster by blood mages with no help. What's Orsino's excuse for permitting blood magic against Circle policy, supporting a murderer, and not fulfilling his duty as a First Enchanter? He didn't work with Meredith because he didn't want his own crimes discovered, and so everything becomes a mess because one of the leaders is a criminal and the other is stalled at every turn by said criminal who is protected by a fumbling Grand Cleric.

Meredith was only seen as corrupt due to her paranoia, which turned out to be justified, so Thrask was wrong, but had good intentions.


Bleh. I liked DA2 (its the worst one so far, imo, but still okay), but the Gallows sucked.

[ThomasBlaine]

I was morally obligated to side with the mages in both DAO and DA2, since they were the innocent party. But that wasn't the case in DAI.

 

I supported the Templars in DAI because the mages were no longer victims of circumstances beyond their control. The rebel mages in the Hinterlands are just as nasty and abusive to the refugees as the rebel templars. The mages in Redcliffe chose of their own volition to be slaves to Tevinter and by extension Corypheus. And if you do save them, they whine about how they're being treated and sit around on their asses.

 

Meanwhile, the Templars didn't choose to serve Corypheus; by and large, they are being tricked into taking red lyrium and becoming monsters.  And they actively serve the Inquisition out on the field, helping to fight the Venatori and demons and even protect innocent mages.

 

Agreed, DAI did a lot to redeem the Templar order as a faction. Their allegience also lends the Inquisition a stronger air of legitimacy, both in the eyes of the Chantry and the in the eyes of the common man, while openly taking the mages onboard would be more provocative than anything else.

[fhs33721]

Something happening more than once does not mean it is frequent especially when we don't have a specific timeframe to analyze as Cole could have been observing the workings of the White Spire over several lifetimes.

 

As for Kirkwall, define abuse and then prove it happened frequently, if you please.

Cole has only been around since the original cole died. And the templar responsible for that is still alive, so no it hasn't been several lifetimes.

 

As for Kirkwall fine I'll bite.

Abuse is defined as:

1.To hurt or injure by maltreatment; 

2. To force sexual activity on; rape or molest.

 

We have:

1. Ser Alrik being using the rite of Tranquility illegally. We meet can meet 2 of the victims personally. Carl, and a female mage in the gallows courtyard who through a series of ambient dialogue talks about refusing Alriks advanced, followed by her being made tranquil and stating "I'm Ser Alriks now". We interrupt him with another future victim in Anders Act 2 quest (And there is a whole bunch of other tempars there being completly fine with him spelling out that he's going to tranquilize Ella and then "she'll do everything he wants" ).  It is heavily implied he tranquiized more mages for his amusement.

2. Alain if clicked in the gallows will state that Ser Karras threatened him with tranquility if he told anyone that "he had been in his room".

3. Ambient Dialogue in the gallows suggests regular beatings. Sound effect in the area seem to confirm this.

4. The fact that Meredith made someone tranquil, because he sent a love letter.

5. There is a mage-supporters only quest named "A noble cause" in Act three that features a relative of  a mage describing said mage as "having been whipped and being half-starved".

 

Is this enough evidence for you, or do you want to continue sticking you head into the sand and claim that there was no abuse in the Kirkwall circle. If so please consider that in DAI Cullen himself, the second in comand of that place, pretty much admits that the Kirkwall circle was horrible.

[Lulupab]

You forget Templars choose​ to break away from chantry and solely hunt mages and abandon protecting the people when mages merely wanted more autonomy in the circles. They did this under no under influence, it was pure free will. And as I mentioned earlier in none of the endings Templars get back the respect and power they once had, for very valid reasons.

[Xilizhra]

Yes, it is quite a chore to try and get a point through to some of you; particularly some who still haven't figured it out Dean was being ironic in a certain other thread; but I do try.

 

The point being that mages, who romanticize freedom and the outside world and whose hardest labor they have ever performed was waving their fingers around, fail to take into account that the world is dirty, cold, harsh, full of sickness and banditry and people break their backs every day in order to earn pittances to pay taxes written in words they can't even read while they are accostumed to free food, education, healthcare, palatial accomodations and, again, the extent of their labor being waving their fingers around.

 

Which leads us to yet another point which is that if mages when confronted with the reality of what the overwhelming majority of Thedosians face everyday balk at it, this completely undermines the pro-mage rethoric where they are the opressed, lower class in need of help and that freedom is somehow the solution to all life's problems

 

Have to spell everything for some people...

I think that you underestimate the amount of effort that goes into spellcasting; a mage without any mana left is exhausted. It's kind of a moot point anyway, because there are plenty of ways magic can be useful for both farming and mining.

 

 

You know that's what John Wilkes Booth shouted after he shot Abraham Lincoln, right?

The irony here is delicious.

That's like saying that eagles are bad national symbols, because Hitler. Association fallacy.

[Dean_the_Young]

I wonder what would happen if you grabbed a group of mages and, under Templar supervision, have them work in the fields or mines for a month, without magic?

I imagine they'd be begging to return to the Circles after a week, tops.

 

You might even say their culture might undergo a revolution...

 

Who would be so silly? Even the qunari have their mages use magic.

 

Hey, if Mao sent off all the intellectuals to be farmers...

 

You have to admit, it'd be a far greater commitment to the cause of Equality if mages outside of the circles lived and worked like most mundanes, rather than present them as the natural and chosen-born bourgeois.

[Xilizhra]

Hey, if Mao sent off all the intellectuals to be farmers...

 

You have to admit, it'd be a far greater commitment to the cause of Equality if mages outside of the circles lived and worked like most mundanes, rather than present them as the natural and chosen-born bourgeois.

Mao is one of many skilled military leaders who didn't have the faintest idea how to run a country. And the political philosophy of equality doesn't exist to that degree in Thedas as yet, otherwise people would be calling for the dissolution of the aristocracy.

[Gervaise]

One of the things that is never properly addressed is the Chantry as a political institution.    The southern Chantry was the brainchild of Drakon.   It was his deliberate intention to spread the faith by force if necessary, and conveniently extend the range of his empire at the same time.    Even his friend Ameridan could see that Drakon was intending to "simplify things" and this was going to cause problems for people like himself.   His compatriots in the Dales were a bit more astute and saw Drakon, his Empire and his Chantry as a second Tevinter.   Hence why when they finally went to war they headed for the seat of power in Val Royeaux.   In a way it is a pity they didn't succeed.   Still the Chantry is not promoting the teaching of Andraste, just Drakon's interpretation of it.   There were apparently many different sects devoted to Andraste prior to his Chantry, which he wiped out in his efforts to simplify things.   According to the World of Thedas 1, the chief tenants of the faith are:

1.. Magic is a corrupting influence in the world.

2. Humankind's sin of pride destroyed the Golden city. (mages again)

3. Andraste was the bride of the Maker

4. Humankind has sinned and must seek penance to earn the Maker's forgiveness.   When all people unite to praise the Maker, he will return and make the world a paradise.

 

Notice that the number one belief in Chantry doctrine is that magic is corrupting.   Compare this to what the Chant claims Andraste actually said:

"Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.    Foul and corrupt are they who have taken his gift and used it against his children."

 

The Chantry doctrine has totally twisted a core part of the teaching of Andraste which is that magic is a gift of the Maker to be used for the benefit of mankind and it is only those who have abused this gift and used it to harm rather than serve the needs of the community who are corrupt.

 

Whether the Templars were universally abusive or not, this basic teaching of the Chantry has influenced the way mages have been treated in the south ever since.  Remember even back in DAO we were told that the Chantry selected its Templars more for their religious fervour than their moral fibre.    It is easy to see how so long as an abusive Templar yells "praise the Maker" at frequent intervals he can get away with just about anything.

 

The ironic part is that the first official cult of Andraste was founded in Tevinter by Hessarian.   He set up the first Circles of Magi for the education of mages and study of magic on the sites of the old god temples.    It was his intention that thereby all mages would be properly be prepared for a lifetime of public service.    Hessarian, a mage, was both Archon and Chief Priest of Andraste.   He allowed Soporati into the ranks of the clergy and soon they achieved high-ranking positions both there and in the Magisterium.   However, surviving Altus from his purge of their numbers simply converted to the faith and from there found their way back into the chief positions of power.    At that time it would seem that both men and women had equal chance of promotion.    It seems to me that the rise back to power of the Altus had less to do with their magical ability and more to do with the fact that they were historically the aristocracy.    Still, apparently things went along just fine in the north for some 150 years, on the face of it pretty much in keeping with what Andraste taught, while the south was still a bunch of fragmented warring tribes with numerous cults to Andraste, the Maker and other gods.   

 

It was only when Tevinter approached Drakon's Chantry for recognition of their mutual faith that things started to go wrong.    To be honest I'm surprised that Tevinter even bothered but they did and made certain concessions to the Chantry in order to achieve this.   Most notably they reduced the Archon's role in the Tevinter church and authority over the faith was transferred to the Grand Clerics, just like the south.   However, everything else was kept as previously and yet the Chantry in the south seemed to think they had monopoly over the interpretation of the faith and that Tevinter was the one who had altered the Chant of Light to reflect their interpretation of it.    It is noticeable that it was only after the state of Tevinter had been repulsed from the Marcher States after doing a bit of power building by an Exalted March declared by the south that the story about the Ancient Magisters being responsible for the Blight started being promoted by Orlais.   Strangely enough the main text which points the finger at them was the one produced by Hessarian, that was ultimately rejected by the then southern Divine as political propaganda, but then clearly reinstated for political reasons.    It is noticeable that in the basic doctrine of faith of the southern Chantry and in the Chant itself, the finger of blame for the Blights is pointed to mankind as a whole.   

 

Anyway, my point is that the immediate reaction to Andraste's crusade was not to immediately rail against magic.     This is why members of the early Inquisition and its last leader could be a mage.    It is recorded that they only went after mages who were a danger to the community and could just as often be found protecting them from unjust accusations.  The Rite of Tranquility was clearly originally intended as a protection against possession and mind control, useful when going up against maleficarum using blood magic for that purpose and stray demons.  The reason they were disliked and their reputation subsequently vilified was that they treated everyone equally, including the nobility, when dispensing justice, something the later Chantry has consistently failed to do.    It was the worst thing that could have happened for the Inquisition to have gone from being an independent organisation to a stooge of the Chantry, which is why I prefer to disband the second Inquisition rather than place it under the Chantry once more.    When I disbanded the Templars and placed them under the Inquisition, I felt I was really just reversing history (although my true satisfaction only came after Jaws of Hakkon).    Whatever ultimately went wrong up in Tevinter, I believe it could have been very different if the southern Chantry hadn't got involved with their set up and if the south hadn't shown themselves to be so fervently anti-mage and anti-magic. 

[lil yonce]

Yes, it is quite a chore to try and get a point through to some of you; particularly some who still haven't figured it out Dean was being ironic in a certain other thread; but I do try.

 

The point being that mages, who romanticize freedom and the outside world and whose hardest labor they have ever performed was waving their fingers around, fail to take into account that the world is dirty, cold, harsh, full of sickness and banditry and people break their backs every day in order to earn pittances to pay taxes written in words they can't even read while they are accostumed to free food, education, healthcare, palatial accomodations and, again, the extent of their labor being waving their fingers around.

 

Which leads us to yet another point which is that if mages when confronted with the reality of what the overwhelming majority of Thedosians face everyday balk at it, this completely undermines the pro-mage rethoric where they are the opressed, lower class in need of help and that freedom is somehow the solution to all life's problems

 

Have to spell everything for some people...

American slaveholders used similar arguments when challenged by abolition movements. The argument went that workers in the north were worse off with inadequate housing, no health care, trapped in arduous wage work, and that slaves in the south were better cared for as owned capital so freedom wasn't something they should really want after all. Mages aren't slaves but they live in a system of domination and hierarchy generally hostile to them- they are oppressed. For the same reason, I doubt a poor Ferelden farmer wants to be an elven house servant in Orlais despite a likely higher standard of living.

 

And the argument mages could have it worse- that's not how the situation should be judged. Their focus should be on what their situation is, what it should be, and how it can get there. Without that attitude they'd never make progress on the big goals of liberation.

[Lord of War]

Lots of Meredith apologists here, but her tyranny didn't start with the red lyrium, it started the moment she became Knight-Commander. Let's look at some of what she did:

 

-Overthrows Kirkwall's legitimate government as a favor to the Orlesian Empire from the Chantry. Yeah, I know about Perrin Threnhold's supposed "tyranny," but the winners can write whatever they want about the losers, especially when they're as wealthy and powerful and the Chantry and Orlais.

-Proceeds to rule Kirkwall based on nothing but the Templars' military power. A junta, with Viscount Dumar as a puppet.

-Cracks down on mages in the Circle because she can. Beatings, rapes, illegal use of Tranquility, it all happens under her watch. The people who do these things are promoted (see Alrik and Kerras). Attitudes that encourage this abuse are also looked for in officers (see Cullen Mages-aren't-people Rutherford).

-Executes/tranquilizes some of the Starkhaven mages at random. Illegal, brutal, absurd.

-A templar under her command murders a group of Qunari delegates. 

-Orders the Rite of Tranquility before the Chanty is destroyed (speak to Kerras in Act 3).

 

Not only does she do these things, but she does it knowing it doesn't work. Meredith's harsh methods can't stop Tarohne, they can't stop Quentin (who operates for years in Kirkwall), they can't catch his apprentice, can't stop the Coterie from employing criminal mages, and can't stop groups of Tevinter slavers from running around Kirwall with impunity. Meredith was as incompetent as she was tyrannical.