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[MisterJB]

 

Cole has only been around since the original cole died. And the templar responsible for that is still alive, so no it hasn't been several lifetimes.

True, I had forgotten that detail. However, saying that there were beatings does not equate to saying that beatings were frequent.

 

 

 

Is this enough evidence for you, or do you want to continue sticking you head into the sand and claim that there was no abuse in the Kirkwall circle. If so please consider that in DAI Cullen himself, the second in comand of that place, pretty much admits that the Kirkwall circle was horrible.

It is evidence that there were abuses which is something I have never denied. However, take Alrik for instance.

Karl in act 1 and then two more confirmed victims three years later means precisely that it's not something that happened frequently.

We literally have a pool of less than ten mages to describe their experiences with the number of Templars whom we know were guilty of abusive behavior at some point in time being less than that; Meredith, Karras, Alrik.

Not only is this population far too small to reach any accurate results, we don't even have any idea whether something like Karras raping Alain; which is unforgivable, of course; is something that happened frequently or just the once.

 

Given that Orsino literally had a shouting match with Meredith in the streets over the issue of searching their quarters, I do hesitate in describing the Kirkwall Circle as a place where somehow abused daily without recourse.
 

[Hellion Rex]

Ok, so we have had extensive experience with what, 3 Circles out 14-15? Two (Kirkwall and White Spire) were decently bad, with Kirkwall being a rather bad one. The Circle at Ferelden was pretty moderate all things considered. White Spire sat straight in the heart of Chantry territory, so of course it be extremely conservative. That said, I don't think it fair to say there is abuse rampant throughout the whole system when we only have any experience with 3 Circles. Is there potential for abuse? Absolutely. However, I don't think it fair to write off the whole system as abusive with such limited information.

[Lulupab]

This has been a very long debate and this is like the 100th thread on the matter and I don't see the point in arguing anymore, specially when the lore is not very clear.

 

The only things clear things are the following:

 

1. The old circle system is forever gone in Dragon Age lore and it won't make a return.
2. The Templars have lost a lot of power and respect. The scale of which depends on who is divine.
3. Most importantly the life of mages improves in all of the endings, again the scale of which depends on who is divine.

 

Now some elaboration.

 

1: The old circle system are completely gone if Leliana becomes divine or if you side with mages and Cassandra is divine. If you side with Templars and Cassandra becomes divine she will create a reformed circle, which you can ask her for details, Its nothing like old circles and mages have a lot of freedom and autonomy in it. In Vivienne's case she makes mages control the circle, and provides more freedom than older system. The important part of this system is the fact that mages and mages alone have a say in fate of the circle, Templars are simple glorified watchdogs heavily controlled by Vivienne herself.

 

2: Templars completely disband for good if Leliana is divine and Cullen was persuaded to stop taking Lyrium. If Cassandra becomes divine and you side with mages they still end up making the college after events of Trespasser which is Templar-free system. In case of siding with Templars and Cassandra becoming divine, this is the only ending in the game that Templars have some leniency, but still its nothing remotely close to power and respect they demanded before DA:I. In case if Vivienne she almost ridicules Templars by completely making them irrelevant in controlling the circle and only keeping them around with leash as glorified watchdogs. Templars actually rebel if you sided with Templars and make Vivienne divine, otherwise if you side with mages they accept this fate.

 

3: As explained above all if the endings result a better life for mages, whether inside college or circle. At the very least they have a lot more freedoms, dignity and autonomy inside circles, and completely control their own fate and future in college. Its always a win for mages in Inquisition, no matter what you do.

 

Obviously the people of Thedas, or at the very least majority of them have no problem with these situations. Of course people here are allowed to express their opinions but the main topic of the thread is the flaw between mage vs templar plot, which even the game itself favors the mages, for reasons I personally agree with. The game slowly builds itself to announce how the old circle system was based on corruption and deception starting from its core aka Seekers and the Chantry's ignorance regarding it. Then confirms this to you when even the Chantry apologists admit to it. You can even make Vivienne admit Templars were part of the problem and contributed a lot to mage rebellion. She accepts Templar cruelty but disagrees with rebellion as an answer to it.

 

Edit: At this point no one knows how much of the endings will be respected, but for now these are conclusions of the Dragon age lore so they need to be addressed. 

[MisterJB]

American slaveholders used similar arguments when challenged by abolition movements. The argument went that workers in the north were worse off with inadequate housing, no health care, trapped in arduous wage work, and that slaves in the south were better cared for as owned capital so freedom wasn't something they should really want after all. Mages aren't slaves but they live in a system of domination and hierarchy generally hostile to them- they are oppressed.

You just said it yourself that mages aren't slave therefore, you acknowledge that the situations are not the same. Ergo, if circunstances are different, then an argument that may not apply to situation a) may apply to situation .

 

It's like comparing slavery to quarantine. Yes, one is justified despite the fact they both involve stripping someone's freedom.

 

For the same reason, I doubt a poor Ferelden farmer wants to be an elven house servant in Orlais despite a likely higher standard of living.

The immigrants commiting crimes so they won't be deported would beg to differ.

It seems that in a great number of cases people do prefer golden cages.

 

 

And the argument mages could have it worse- that's not how the situation should be judged. Their focus should be on what their situation is, what it should be, and how it can get there. Without that attitude they'd never make progress on the big goals of liberation.

I believe the focus should be on how what they want will affect the overwhelming majority of Thedosians who already live harsher lives than them.

Much like I believe that just because a noble may feel that the crown isn't respecting his already abundant rights, that doesn't mean the peasants should be doing so he can increase his status.

[The Baconer]

It is evidence that there were abuses which is something I have never denied. However, take Alrik for instance.

Karl in act 1 and then two more confirmed victims three years later means precisely that it's not something that happened frequently.

We literally have a pool of less than ten mages to describe their experiences with the number of Templars whom we know were guilty of abusive behavior at some point in time being less than that; Meredith, Karras, Alrik.

Not only is this population far too small to reach any accurate results, we don't even have any idea whether something like Karras raping Alain; which is unforgivable, of course; is something that happened frequently or just the once.

 

Given that Orsino literally had a shouting match with Meredith in the streets over the issue of searching their quarters, I do hesitate in describing the Kirkwall Circle as a place where somehow abused daily without recourse.

 

How are you quantifying frequency? 

[MisterJB]

Ok, so we have had extensive experience with what, 3 Circles out 14-15? Two (Kirkwall and White Spire) were decently bad,

No, no, we shan't surrender the White Spire so easily.

 

The Knight Commander previous to Lord Seeker Lambert assuming the position was actually willing to trust Rhys to interact with spirits without losing himself and the grand total of abuses we read in "Asunder" is a mage having a black eye.

[Xilizhra]

I believe the focus should be on how what they want will affect the overwhelming majority of Thedosians who already live harsher lives than them.

Much like I believe that just because a noble may feel that the crown isn't respecting his already abundant rights, that doesn't mean the peasants should be doing so he can increase his status.

Citation needed on how much harsher this nebulous majority's life is.

[Hellion Rex]

No, no, we shan't surrender the White Spire so easily.

The Knight Commander previous to Lord Seeker Lambert assuming the position was actually willing to trust Rhys to interact with spirits without losing himself and the grand total of abuses we read in "Asunder" is a mage having a black eye.

Well, with WS, we have the stuff that happened to Cole as well as the other things the spirit witnessed within that tower.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Well, with WS, we have the stuff that happened to Cole as well as the other things the spirit witnessed within that tower.

Funny how JB also forgets how the circles became literal prisons after Kirkwall, or the line at the start of Asunder where Cole sees how the templars in the White Spire hate mages.

[MisterJB]

Citation needed on how much harsher this nebulous majority's life is.

You wake up at the crack of dawn, eat a very sparse, tasteless breaksfast before you go outside to do back breaking work on an unwielding field. Be it under the scorching sun or pouring rain, you spend the majority of the day out there, you muscles ache but you know you can't stop for not only must you provide for yourself and yours, you have to give a large portion of it to the local lord or suffer the consequences. If there is a bad harvest, you'll starve. If your daugther catches the eye of some passing knight and you resist, you'll die. If you catch a wasting sickness, you'll vomit and **** yourself until you die. If bandits happen by, you die. If Darkspawn rise from the ground, you die.

You can't read, you can't write and if you live to be 40, you've beaten the odds, if you've never had a son or daugther die, you've beaten the odds.

 

[MisterJB]

Well, with WS, we have the stuff that happened to Cole as well as the other things the spirit witnessed within that tower.

 

Cole's death wasn't abuse, it was negligence. And yes, he claims he saw beatings and we see a mage with a black eye. It's hardly a den of horrors.
 

[Hellion Rex]

Funny how JB also forgets how the circles became literal prisons after Kirkwall, or the line at the start of Asunder where Cole sees how the templars in the White Spire hate mages.

Hardly. In regards to Kirkwall, I can understand why somewhat. That event put everyone on their guard because of that extreme use of magic for terrorism.

[Hellion Rex]

Cole's death wasn't abuse, it was negligence. And yes, he claims he saw beatings and we see a mage with a black eye. It's hardly a den of horrors.

Negligence can be abuse, though.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Hardly. In regards to Kirkwall, I can understand why somewhat. That event put everyone on their guard because of that extreme use of magic for terrorism.

Except that was the exact opposite thing that should have been done. Punishing all mages for both the templars screwing up and for something the circle didn't even do was just asking for trouble.

[Hellion Rex]

Except that was the exact opposite thing that should have been done. Punishing all mages for both the templars screwing up and for something the circle didn't even do was just asking for trouble.

And yet, what if it galvanized people that agreed with Anders to commit similar acts? Was it smart? Probably not. Was it understandable how they would act given the circumstances? I'd argue yes.

[MisterJB]

Typically, the same people who'll claim the mages are pushed into violence by Templar's action will strongly argue that the Templars started the war despite the fact they merely reacted to the mage's actions.

[Lord of War]

Typically, the same people who'll claim the mages are pushed into violence by Templar's action will strongly argue that the Templars started the war despite the fact they merely reacted to the mage's actions.

 

I'm really not sure what you expect them to do? Just let the Templars kill them?

 

It's like this: the mages vote for independence. The Templars under Lambert attack them. They don't try to restrain them, they don't try to negotiate, they attack. Lambert and his thugs started the war, and honestly, I admire the mages' restraint before that point.

[Iakus]

True, I had forgotten that detail. However, saying that there were beatings does not equate to saying that beatings were frequent.

 

 

It is evidence that there were abuses which is something I have never denied. However, take Alrik for instance.

Karl in act 1 and then two more confirmed victims three years later means precisely that it's not something that happened frequently.

We literally have a pool of less than ten mages to describe their experiences with the number of Templars whom we know were guilty of abusive behavior at some point in time being less than that; Meredith, Karras, Alrik.

Not only is this population far too small to reach any accurate results, we don't even have any idea whether something like Karras raping Alain; which is unforgivable, of course; is something that happened frequently or just the once.

 

Given that Orsino literally had a shouting match with Meredith in the streets over the issue of searching their quarters, I do hesitate in describing the Kirkwall Circle as a place where somehow abused daily without recourse.
 

 

Codex entry: Bethany - After the Deep Roads

 

Bethany communicates often with her family since entering the Circle, and she is adjusting to her new life with ease. For the first time, she can study magic without watching over her shoulder. After passing her much-delayed Harrowing, she took a senior position within the Circle, teaching and mentoring the newest apprentices. Bethany is surprised at how many templars are honest Andrastians, who believe they serve the Maker and the people by keeping mages from using blood magic. However, this up-close look at the templars has also shown her the abuses that inevitably occur when one group of people is given life-and-death power over another. Bethany supports the Circle as it is, but this grows harder as Knight-Commander Meredith clamps down more tightly.

 

Sounds like  even in Kirkwall, things weren't always so bad.

[Iakus]

I'm really not sure what you expect them to do? Just let the Templars kill them?

 

It's like this: the mages vote for independence. The Templars under Lambert attack them. They don't try to restrain them, they don't try to negotiate, they attack. Lambert and his thugs started the war, and honestly, I admire the mages' restraint before that point.

Fiona tries to hijack conclave to vote on independence

 

Lambert arrives to arrest Rhys on suspicion of murder (who was framed by Fiona's disciple Adrian specifically to spark violence)

Fiona and Wynne object

 

Hilarity ensues.

[MisterJB]

I'm really not sure what you expect them to do? Just let the Templars kill them?

 

It's like this: the mages vote for independence. The Templars under Lambert attack them. They don't try to restrain them, they don't try to negotiate, they attack. Lambert and his thugs started the war, and honestly, I admire the mages' restraint before that point.

I don't feel like getting into another debate regarding war making powers and what constitutes or not a declaration of war. I've done this before.

 

Suffice it to say, that is not what happened, read the book again.

The mages were in a conclave, Fiona hijacks and calls for a vote on WW3 on the spot. Lambert then interrupts it after they have discovered Pharamond's body and a bloody knife on Rhys' quarters (placed there by Adrian). He orders his arrest and the disband of the meeting, the mages refuse and he orders them restrained.

The mages and Templars begin fighting in a non-lethal manner. At one point, there is an accident and the book makes it very clear it was one. A First Enchanter throws her arms up in surrender and a young Templar runs her through; the book claims that the look of horror and surprise on the young Templar's face showed he hadn't expected that to happen.

After this, mages begin kill Templars and they retaliate.

 

So, as far as that meeting went, bad decisions all around.

[MisterJB]

Codex entry: Bethany - After the Deep Roads

 

Bethany communicates often with her family since entering the Circle, and she is adjusting to her new life with ease. For the first time, she can study magic without watching over her shoulder. After passing her much-delayed Harrowing, she took a senior position within the Circle, teaching and mentoring the newest apprentices. Bethany is surprised at how many templars are honest Andrastians, who believe they serve the Maker and the people by keeping mages from using blood magic. However, this up-close look at the templars has also shown her the abuses that inevitably occur when one group of people is given life-and-death power over another. Bethany supports the Circle as it is, but this grows harder as Knight-Commander Meredith clamps down more tightly.

 

Sounds like  even in Kirkwall, things weren't always so bad.

http://dragonage.wik...tter:_From_Ella

 

If Ella was sent back and Bethany joined the Circle...
Messere Hawke,

In case you don't remember me, we met in the Gallows a few years ago. You saved my life. Twice, in fact.

Bethany sends her love. I should have recognized the family resemblance sooner. Knowing Bethany, it now makes perfect sense that you, of all the people in Thedas, would be the one to rescue me.

It's not the kindest thing to say, but nobody misses Ser Alrik. Not even the other templars. I know it's hard to imagine, but they don't want to fight. They want things to be normal: no Harrowings, no Tranquil, no one dying. But none of us are getting that wish now.

So many dark whispers in the Circle. Terrible days are coming for all of us. Your sister and I will pray that Andraste keeps you safe.

Sincerely,
Ella

 

[Xilizhra]

You wake up at the crack of dawn, eat a very sparse, tasteless breaksfast before you go outside to do back breaking work on an unwielding field. Be it under the scorching sun or pouring rain, you spend the majority of the day out there, you muscles ache but you know you can't stop for not only must you provide for yourself and yours, you have to give a large portion of it to the local lord or suffer the consequences. If there is a bad harvest, you'll starve. If your daugther catches the eye of some passing knight and you resist, you'll die. If you catch a wasting sickness, you'll vomit and **** yourself until you die. If bandits happen by, you die. If Darkspawn rise from the ground, you die.

You can't read, you can't write and if you live to be 40, you've beaten the odds, if you've never had a son or daugther die, you've beaten the odds.

So... no citation, then? Because I'd be very interested in one, starting with the tastelessness of the breakfast and working your way down, as this seems to be a combination of headcanon and garbled suppositions about medieval European peasant life, and Thedas is not medieval Europe. Its currency unification, literacy rate and transportation infrastructure, for instance are all at much higher levels. The odds don't seem too bad on your being unable to read, the issue with one's daughter (interesting that you didn't just say "you" in that instance, by the way) only seems to happen legally in Orlais, I think you have "wasting sickness" mixed up with something else (not to mention that the only plague we know of, the Hundred Days Cough, didn't seem to discriminate based on economic status), and darkspawn almost never appear in civilized areas except during a Blight or in the Anderfels.

 

You're also not thrown unprepared into a demon's mouth for your coming-of-age ritual and the armored rapists don't live in your house, both of which could be considered perks.

[Lord of War]

http://dragonage.wik...tter:_From_Ella

 

If Ella was sent back and Bethany joined the Circle...
Messere Hawke,

In case you don't remember me, we met in the Gallows a few years ago. You saved my life. Twice, in fact.

Bethany sends her love. I should have recognized the family resemblance sooner. Knowing Bethany, it now makes perfect sense that you, of all the people in Thedas, would be the one to rescue me.

It's not the kindest thing to say, but nobody misses Ser Alrik. Not even the other templars. I know it's hard to imagine, but they don't want to fight. They want things to be normal: no Harrowings, no Tranquil, no one dying. But none of us are getting that wish now.

So many dark whispers in the Circle. Terrible days are coming for all of us. Your sister and I will pray that Andraste keeps you safe.

Sincerely,
Ella

 

Somehow, I doubt mail leaves the Circle without the Templars reading it.

[The Hierophant]

We've had to choose between the two sides in all three games and the large majority of players choose mages without thinking twice.

And why wouldn't they? One's first instinct is to help the oppressed. But if it is to be presented as a choice, it shouldn't be so black and white.

While there are a few reasons to be pro Circle and respect the templars' real purpose, the games failed to provide one that is just as compelling as the noble cause of mage freedom.

Recently, i noticed this about the conflict's writing. The narrative usually presents a misuse of magic as a reaction in response to perceived abuses from the Templars versus them just being flawed people. Rarely highlights any positives of the mages living conditions or contrasts theirs with the regular people, and fails to show on a regular basis (engine limitations and gameplay balance) how destructive demons and magic can be in relation to what their respective codices had detailed. Mind you a codex mentions abominations having the power to blow up buildings, yet we tear through them like toilet paper. 

 

I don't know if it's writer bias or plain ineptitude but If they were trying to present a grey situation they failed.

 

Still pro Templar though.

[Catilina]

Codex entry: Bethany - After the Deep Roads

 

Bethany communicates often with her family since entering the Circle, and she is adjusting to her new life with ease. For the first time, she can study magic without watching over her shoulder. After passing her much-delayed Harrowing, she took a senior position within the Circle, teaching and mentoring the newest apprentices. Bethany is surprised at how many templars are honest Andrastians, who believe they serve the Maker and the people by keeping mages from using blood magic. However, this up-close look at the templars has also shown her the abuses that inevitably occur when one group of people is given life-and-death power over another. Bethany supports the Circle as it is, but this grows harder as Knight-Commander Meredith clamps down more tightly.

 

Sounds like  even in Kirkwall, things weren't always so bad.

Bethany just is a little bunny who does not want more to fear and flee. She like the Circle because she does not need to be running more, and maybe less bad than what she imagined. But becoming increasingly difficult to feel safe herself in the Circle, because of Meredith.

Even an additive: Bethany never had before in the company of mages, so the Circle's life very interest to her. I can easily imagine her viewpoints

 

(How much better I like Carver...especially templar Carver!)