1158 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Fiona had no right to bring Tevinter into Redcliffe under any circumstances.  

 

As to the Templars attacking Redcliffe, I thought they were threatening to attack, thus why Fiona went and sold her people into slavery.  You sure you're not mistaking some random band of Templars for the main body?

 

And I am fully aware of both mages and Templars running amok in the Hinterlands.  That was my point.  Both sides were acting deplorably.

Wouldn't the onus have been on Teagan to throw him out? I find it incredibly unlikely that the free mages were somehow able to smuggle the Venatori delegation in with no input from Teagan. And if the Venatori could overwhelm the forces of the entire arling, it wouldn't much matter what Fiona did or did not do.

 

 

So we can still count Anders' chantry-bombing in Kirkwall and Adrien's framing Rhys for being the Ghost in the Spire, right?

 

Those canonically happen in all world-states?

Yes, although placing the blame for the actions of a runaway Grey Warden on the Circle community strikes me as sheer madness. But no, I've never claimed that mages, as a whole, were completely morally pure.

[thats1evildude]

I agree: just because neither side is pure and innocent, it doesn't mean one side can't be far worse.

Which is ultimately I'm pre-disposed to side with the Templars. Everything mages have done is far worse than anything the templars have done.

[Xilizhra]

I agree: just because neither side is pure and innocent, it doesn't mean one side can't be far worse.

Which is ultimately I'm pre-disposed to side with the Templars. Everything mages have done is far worse than anything the templars have done.

If one is not disingenuously conflating Tevinter and the Evanuris with the southern Circle of Magi, then no.

[Lulupab]

Fiona had no right to bring Tevinter into Redcliffe under any circumstances.  

 

As to the Templars attacking Redcliffe, I thought they were threatening to attack, thus why Fiona went and sold her people into slavery.  You sure you're not mistaking some random band of Templars for the main body?

 

And I am fully aware of both mages and Templars running amok in the Hinterlands.  That was my point.  Both sides were acting deplorably.

 

It was an attack by Templars, but it was not the main body. More like a raid and a warning that they will fully attack soon. But it was an attack nonetheless. My point was the first to invade were Templars.

 

I'm not saying Fiona made the right choice, but the Temlars didn't give her much choice. According to events Tevinter arrived on a very timely fashion, most likely exactly during the attack, and they actually helped repelling the Templar attack. So Fiona was both manipulated and threatened. I'd wager majority of people would have made even worst decisions.

 

However Templars invaded first, that's what critical, it always is. Because the rest of the actions are simply responses. 

[Barquiel]

Bethany was treated well even before Hawke became Champion of Kirkwall.

By Act II, Hawke is clearly rich and nobles talk of the return of the Amells (and again, Cullen promised to keep an eye on her). Huon on the other hand wasn't allowed to see his wife, and was taken from her in chains. Ela was nearly made tranquil illegally by Alrik because she wanted to see her mother. Noble mages were always treated differently than the rest, and Kirkwall was no exception. And if an abusive Templar is looking for a victim, they'd go for someone who isn't a battle-hardened mage and doesn't have any influental family contacts outside who can kick up a fuss.

Now if the Circle was working properly like it was supposed to, then I suspect she probably would have been content there (so that her family has a home in Kirkwall). But it wasn't, and the fact that Bethany didn't join the loyalists after the events of DA2 should speak for itself.

[Iakus]

Wouldn't the onus have been on Teagan to throw him out? I find it incredibly unlikely that the free mages were somehow able to smuggle the Venatori delegation in with no input from Teagan. And if the Venatori could overwhelm the forces of the entire arling, it wouldn't much matter what Fiona did or did not do.

 

It would be Teagan's duty to throw them out, if able of course.

 

But then, he's got an unknown number of Tevinter mages to deal with, which almost certainly means blood mages.  Plus several hundred mages who were erstwhile allies who went and betrayed him.

 

Unless he had a regiment of Templars (or Templar-trained soldiers at least) he'll have to wait until Ferelden's army arrives to dig them out.

 

 

Yes, although placing the blame for the actions of a runaway Grey Warden on the Circle community strikes me as sheer madness. But no, I've never claimed that mages, as a whole, were completely morally pure.

 

Sure Anders was an apostate and acting alone.

 

But it was still a deed designed specifically to fan the flames between mages and Templars

[Iakus]

It was an attack by Templars, but it was not the main body. More like a raid and a warning that they will fully attack soon. But it was an attack nonetheless. My point was the first to invade were Templars.

 

I'm not saying Fiona made the right choice, but the Temlars didn't give her much choice. According to events Tevinter arrived on a very timely fashion, most likely exactly during the attack, and they actually helped repelling the Templar attack. So Fiona was both manipulated and threatened. I'd wager majority of people would have made even worst decisions.

 

However Templars invaded first, that's what critical, it always is. Because the rest of the actions are simply responses. 

Given Tevinter mages have no idea how to fight Templars (as shown in multiple War Table missions) I find it highly unlikely the Venatori "saved" anybody

[thats1evildude]

If one is not disingenuously conflating Tevinter and the Evanuris with the southern Circle of Magi, then no.

Uldred's rebellion? Zathrian's curse? Tarohne's cult? Anders' destruction of the Kirkwall Chantry? Orsino's support of Quentin? Adrian murdering Pharamond? Fiona selling out to a darkspawn god?

The endless stream of evil mages I've had to kill, all ranting about power and how they deserve to rule the world ...

[Barquiel]

Given Tevinter mages have no idea how to fight Templars (as shown in multiple War Table missions) I find it highly unlikely the Venatori "saved" anybody

But that's exactly what the elderly mage in the tavern said: the magister's arrival was a stroke of luck because the mages were bracing for the templars to attack at that moment, and he gave them the edge they desperately needed.

[Xilizhra]

It would be Teagan's duty to throw them out, if able of course.

 

But then, he's got an unknown number of Tevinter mages to deal with, which almost certainly means blood mages.  Plus several hundred mages who were erstwhile allies who went and betrayed him.

 

Unless he had a regiment of Templars (or Templar-trained soldiers at least) he'll have to wait until Ferelden's army arrives to dig them out.

So, if all the forces at Teagan's command can't stop Alexius' delegation, how would you expect A. Fiona's actions to mean anything either way, or B. Teagan to hold off the whole templar army before the envy demon recalled them?

 

 

Sure Anders was an apostate and acting alone.

 

But it was still a deed designed specifically to fan the flames between mages and Templars

Yes, which says nothing at all about the morality of the Circle as a whole because the Circle as a whole wasn't involved in the action. It does, however, say much about the templars, both those who ordered the Annulment and those who obeyed the orders to conduct it.

 

 

Uldred's rebellion? Tarohne's cult? Grace's attack on Hawke? Anders' destruction of the Kirkwall Chantry? Orsino's support of Quentin? Adrian murdering Pharamond? Fiona selling out to a darkspawn god?

The endless stream of evil mages I've had to kill, all ranting about power and how they deserve to rule the world ...

The first was a mistake (the actual damage was done by demons), the second is just another criminal gang (templar-aligned lyrium smugglers are both murderous and numerous beneath Kirkwall), the third also involved templars and in any case did very little actual harm until Grace's possession made itself known, the fourth I've covered above, the fifth is untrue (no support was given at the time of the killings), the sixth was at Pharamond's behest, and the seventh requires proof that it was willing, that you don't possess.

[Iakus]

By Act II, Hawke is clearly rich and nobles talk of the return of the Amells (and again, Cullen promised to keep an eye on her). Huon on the other hand wasn't allowed to see his wife, and was taken from her in chains. Ela was nearly made tranquil illegally by Alrik because she wanted to see her mother. Noble mages were always treated differently than the rest, and Kirkwall was no exception. And if an abusive Templar is looking for a victim, they'd go for someone who isn't a battle-hardened mage and doesn't have any influental family contacts outside who can kick up a fuss.

Now if the Circle was working properly like it was supposed to, then I suspect she probably would have been content there (so that her family has a home in Kirkwall). But it wasn't, and the fact that Bethany didn't join the loyalists after the events of DA2 should speak for itself.

In Act 2, Hawke was just another Rich Idiot With No Day Job.  Aveline even calls Hawke on it, how he doesn't really do anything with the Amell fortune, like get a title, attend social functions, etc.  Hawke is, companions aside, a recluse.  Fortunately, Cullen's a decent man who kept an eye on the newbie.

 

Huon was a blood mage.  Alrik was an extremist who gets what he deserves.

 

Noble mages treated differently, like who, Emile de Launcet?

 

Bethany liked the Circle as it was earlier in DA2.  But Meredith went nuts

[Catilina]

Uldred's rebellion? Tarohne's cult? Grace's attack on Hawke? Anders' destruction of the Kirkwall Chantry? Orsino's support of Quentin? Adrian murdering Pharamond? Fiona selling out to a darkspawn god?

The endless stream of evil mages I've had to kill, all ranting about power and how they deserve to rule the world ...

Uldred was a power-hungry mad bastard – just as Meredith.

Grace was a vengeful mad – as Sebastian, with his army...

Anders never would have done what he did, if the Circle system is not as bad, than it is.

Orsino never supported Quentin, just know his studies. Orsino was loyal to Circle until the last minute.

 

The Circle is not a solution. You see: what you wrote, almost all happened, while the Circle worked, and could not stop the madness. Ergo: the Circle system are cruel, but not efficient.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Uldred was a power-hungry mad bastard – just as Meredith.
Grace was a vengeful mad – as Sebastian, with his army...
Anders never would have done what he did, if the Circle system is not as bad, than it is.
Orsino never supported Quentin, just know his studies. Orsino was loyal to Circle until the last minute.

The Circle is not a solution. You see: what you wrote, almost all happened, while the Circle worked, and could not stop the madness. Ergo: the Circle system are cruel, but not efficient.

Not to mention that some problems are directly caused by the circle. Just look at Evelina.

[Barquiel]

In Act 2, Hawke was just another Rich Idiot With No Day Job.  Aveline even calls Hawke on it, how he doesn't really do anything with the Amell fortune, like get a title, attend social functions, etc.  Hawke is, companions aside, a recluse.  Fortunately, Cullen's a decent man who kept an eye on the newbie.
 
Huon was a blood mage.  Alrik was an extremist who gets what he deserves.
 
Noble mages treated differently, like who, Emile de Launcet?
 
Bethany liked the Circle as it was earlier in DA2.  But Meredith went nuts

And? You could probably say the same about most nobles in Thedas.

Maybe Huon was always a crazy blood mage (I doubt it, spending ten years under the regime of Meredith on the other hand would drive anyone insane)...but it would have been kind of nice for the templars to explain the situation to Nyssa instead of just dragging him away in chains, and telling her nothing about him thereafter. I don't think they would have done this with a noble family.

If Emile is sent back to the Circle he isn't killed or anything. Not sure what your point is.

You mean she found her time in the circle "bearable"?

[thesuperdarkone2]

And? You could probably say the same about most nobles in Thedas.

Maybe Huon was always a crazy blood mage (I doubt it, spending ten years under the regime of Meredith on the other hand would drive anyone insane)...but it would have been kind of nice for the templars to explain the situation to Nyssa instead of just dragging him away in chains, and telling her nothing about him thereafter. I don't think they would have done this with a noble family.

If Emile is sent back to the Circle he isn't killed or anything. Not sure what your point is.

You mean she found her time in the circle "bearable"?

Plus, Emile is accused of being a blood Mage yet is spared because his noble parents pleaded. That plus how Meredith issues a personal apology to Gascard because he's a noble makes it clear that Bethany only has a decent experience because Hawke is a noble and champion.

[Iakus]

So, if all the forces at Teagan's command can't stop Alexius' delegation, how would you expect A. Fiona's actions to mean anything either way, or B. Teagan to hold off the whole templar army before the envy demon recalled them?

 

A: Fiona was part of Alexius's forces.  Which was part of the problem.  She let them in.  She sold herself and her people into slavery.

B: Templars don't have any special abilities against muggles.

[Iakus]

Uldred was a power-hungry mad bastard – just as Meredith.

Grace was a vengeful mad – as Sebastian, with his army...

Anders never would have done what he did, if the Circle system is not as bad, than it is.

Orsino never supported Quentin, just know his studies. Orsino was loyal to Circle until the last minute.

 

The Circle is not a solution. You see: what you wrote, almost all happened, while the Circle worked, and could not stop the madness. Ergo: the Circle system are cruel, but not efficient.

Congrats you just proved mages are people.  With powers to make situations far far worse than ordinary muggles.

 

Also:

Anders blew up a Chantry full of people.  There is zero excuse for that.  I don't care how much you hate the CIrcle system or the Templars. Those people were innocent.

 

Orsino actively concealed Quentin's existence, allowing him to build up a much higher body count.  Including Leandra Hawke

[Xilizhra]

A: Fiona was part of Alexius's forces.  Which was part of the problem.  She let them in.  She sold herself and her people into slavery.

B: Templars don't have any special abilities against muggles.

So Teagan and Fiona together would have been able to defeat both Alexius and the templars?

 

 

Also:

Anders blew up a Chantry full of people.  There is zero excuse for that.  I don't care how much you hate the CIrcle system or the Templars. Those people were innocent.

No they weren't. Neither Elthina nor the templars were innocent.

 

 

Orsino actively concealed Quentin's existence, allowing him to build up a much higher body count.  Including Leandra Hawke

A body count higher than Meredith's reprisal against the Circle would have been?

[Lulupab]

Given Tevinter mages have no idea how to fight Templars (as shown in multiple War Table missions) I find it highly unlikely the Venatori "saved" anybody

 

Its an unknown to most of them, but that doesn't mean they don't know how to fight. Not to mention they outnumbered the Templars anyway.

 

As for how Templars fare versus Tevinter in general, the south called for several exalted marches on Tevinter and used Templars. In most of these marches not a single inch of Tevinter land was lost. That should give you a good idea how capable Tevinter mages are. Because while Tevinter are surprised about Templars, the same applies to Templars because they face much better trained mages who have been specifically trained to fight. Unlike most mages in the south who are literally civilians who can sometimes throw a fireball.

[Daerog]

Just want to say that the rebel mages, Fiona's Army, are hardly representable of the southern mages. A lot of mages abandoned Fiona and the war. The Templars pretty much won the war because most mages did not join her. There are far more mages than Templars, and yet Fiona was reduced to those in Redcliffe. They had to go to Redcliffe for help, not other places where mages have more power, but to where a massacre due to a mage happened... I found that interesting. That war vote destroyed mage unity, if one could say they were united to begin with.

I do agree that Lambert really screwed the Templar Order. His successor screwed them even more. They had to kill off the Templar leadership to pull off the crap they did. So glad Cassandra is starting from scratch with the Seekers. Ser Barris is what the Order really needs, capable of quick thinking, organization, combat leadership, cool head during Champions of the Just (red v. blue, was pretty dramatic), and holding to the ideals of the Order.

Well, it's nice to see all the groups got a reset button... well, ignoring all the deaths, anyway. Back to their idealized roots! Viv runs the Circle, Barris possibly leads a Templar Order, and Fiona possibly leads the College... on a side note, I thought it was strange how she is just killed if you side with the Templars, with little recognition that you killed the Grand Enchanter, mother of Alistair, and ex GW... just a name with red healthbar then a lootable corpse, never mentioned in dialogue either.

Also, just as no government is a solution for stability and social order, neither was the Circle. It was a system that worked where its designs were followed, but broke when people went against the system. Like corrupt politicians can screw up a government, corrupt enchanters, Seekers, and Meredith can screw up a Circle. However, it is capable of bouncing back, such as Fereldan's Tower after First Enchanter Remille was killed.

Remille isn't brought up enough in the lore, he was human doing darkspawn/blight magic. That is crazy since darkspawn are not connected to the Fade, but a human can connect with the Fade and whatever emissaries connect with to do magic. I wonder how freaked Solas would get if he found out about that ****, that's some hellish magic.

[Iakus]

And? You could probably say the same about most nobles in Thedas.
 

And the Amell family is just money, with no power or prestige or favors to call in.  Why should Bethany get any special treatment?

 

 

 

Maybe Huon was always a crazy blood mage (I doubt it, spending ten years under the regime of Meredith on the other hand would drive anyone insane)...but it would have been kind of nice for the templars to explain the situation to Nyssa instead of just dragging him away in chains, and telling her nothing about him thereafter. I don't think they would have done this with a noble family.

 

Maybe Maybe not.  But do you have proof either way?  Emile was hauled away at age six, after all

 

 

 

If Emile is sent back to the Circle he isn't killed or anything. Not sure what your point is.
 

He can barely function outside the Circle

 

 

You mean she found her time in the circle "bearable"?

She actually enjoyed teaching.

[Steelcan]

Its an unknown to most of them, but that doesn't mean they don't know how to fight. Not to mention they outnumbered the Templars anyway.

 

As for how Templars fare versus Tevinter in general, the south called for several exalted marches on Tevinter and used Templars. In most of these marches not a single inch of Tevinter land was lost. That should give you a good idea how capable Tevinter mages are. Because while Tevinter are surprised about Templars, the same applies to Templars because they face much better trained mages who have been specifically trained to fight. Unlike most mages in the south who are literally civilians who can sometimes throw a fireball.

well Minrathous was never lost and they never flat out "lost" the Exalted March, we don't know how else the borders might have shifted

[Steelcan]

No they weren't. Neither Elthina nor the templars were innocent.

Elthina was actively keeping Meredith back from cracking down worse. but I suppose its too much to consider that the Chantry doesn't actually want to butcher every mage they have.  She might have been able to do more true, but lets not pretend she was firmly 100% pro-templar

[Lulupab]

well Minrathous was never lost and they never flat out "lost" the Exalted March, we don't know how else the borders might have shifted

 

I was just saying. My focus was not on borders really. None of the marches had a decisive result. Meaning both sides fought as best as they could and neither could win decisively. This was my focus, so one should not rely heavily on Templar abilities or underestimate Tevinter mages. Because Tevinter was severely outnumbered, so it was the semi-victor. Because it can boast I stood versus rest of the world and did not lose.

 

We need more information on how better Tevinter training is, but for starters most Tevinter mages wield metal bladed staves, meaning they are more than prepared to be a situation they cannot cast spells and have to resort to melee. Not to mention that based on WoT Tevinter has its own order of "Arcane Warriors". Its probably the only place this class can be found in decent numbers.

[Iakus]

So Teagan and Fiona together would have been able to defeat both Alexius and the templars?

 

Quite possibly.  Especially with Ferelden's army on the march.  At the very least, Alexius would have zero pretense to hang out in Redcliffe.  And Redcliffe would simply have to hold out until Alistair/Anora shows up

 

 

 

No they weren't. Neither Elthina nor the templars were innocent.

Debatable.  But the hundreds of Kirkwaller civilians definitely were.

 

 

A body count higher than Meredith's reprisal against the Circle would have been?

And in concealing it he validated every paranoid delusion about mages Meredith had.