1158 réponses à ce sujet

[Catilina]

Congrats you just proved mages are people.  With powers to make situations far far worse than ordinary muggles.

 

Also:

Anders blew up a Chantry full of people.  There is zero excuse for that.  I don't care how much you hate the CIrcle system or the Templars. Those people were innocent.

 

Orsino actively concealed Quentin's existence, allowing him to build up a much higher body count.  Including Leandra Hawke

Yes. Mages are people. And jail innocent people (chidren!) for what they perhaps someday commit, simple wrong. I think.

[Daerog]

No they weren't. Neither Elthina nor the templars were innocent.

Elthina and Templars weren't the only casualties of that magic bomb. There were everyday Andrastians there.

If you rival Anders, he admits he's a monster who is killing innocents and doesn't think he can stop, and then asks for death. IIRC.


Also, Fiona had no right to sell out her charges like that. Agree to Alexius' deal, sure, but then should have broken it and tried to help mages leave if they wanted. It just tarnishes her reputation for going along with it. She was a bad leader who made bad calls, the mages should have looked to a better mage to lead them in their rebellion... if there was one...

[Steelcan]

I was just saying. My focus was not on borders really. None of the marches had a decisive result. Meaning both sides fought as best as they could and neither could win decisively. This was my focus, so one should not rely heavily on Templar abilities or underestimate Tevinter mages. Because Tevinter was severely outnumbered, so it was the semi-victor. Because it can boast I stood versus rest of the world and did not lose.

 

We need more information on how better Tevinter training is, but for starters most Tevinter mages wield metal bladed staves, meaning they are more than prepared to be a situation they cannot cast spells and have to resort to melee. Not to mention that based on WoT Tevinter has its own order of "Arcane Warriors". Its probably the only place this class can be found in decent numbers.

 Not losing as badly as you might have doesn't make you the victor, semi or otherwise

[Iakus]

Elthina was actively keeping Meredith back from cracking down worse. but I suppose its too much to consider that the Chantry doesn't actually want to butcher every mage they have.  She might have been able to do more true, but lets not pretend she was firmly 100% pro-templar

Has it occurred to anyone that Elthina was a pacifist?  She never advocated violence for any reason.  Not against mages, or templars, not the mercs who killed Sebastian's family, or even the Qunari or Mother Petrice.  She genuinely wanted people to work out their own problems.  And by sheer force of personality, was keeping Kirkwall from exploding.

[Lulupab]

 Not losing as badly as you might have doesn't make you the victor, semi or otherwise

 

But what if it was your goal though? Tevinter was the defending side, don't forget this. They successfully defended, even though there was losses. Its a big feat, pretty sure Orlais would crumble in weeks if all known human nations march on it.

[Iakus]

Yes. Mages are people. And jail innocent people (chidren!) for what they perhaps someday commit, simple wrong. I think.

And how many people die to abominations because they won't seek proper training?

[Catilina]

It's funny: when I tried to defend Cullen's viewpoint (not in this topic), there were some who saw in me a war criminal, who guilty in a genocide... 

 

I enjoy this forum, so much!

[lil yonce]

You just said it yourself that mages aren't slave therefore, you acknowledge that the situations are not the same. Ergo, if circunstances are different, then an argument that may not apply to situation a) may apply to situation .

 

It's like comparing slavery to quarantine. Yes, one is justified despite the fact they both involve stripping someone's freedom.

 

The immigrants commiting crimes so they won't be deported would beg to differ.

It seems that in a great number of cases people do prefer golden cages.

 

 

I believe the focus should be on how what they want will affect the overwhelming majority of Thedosians who already live harsher lives than them.

Much like I believe that just because a noble may feel that the crown isn't respecting his already abundant rights, that doesn't mean the peasants should be doing so he can increase his status.

Its not obvious at all the Circle is about "quarantine" as mages receive visitors and regularly leave it after their harrowing. And the comparison isn't exact- mages aren't chattel slaves- but it is still useful. Oppression isn't solely defined by access to material goods. For example, women's history is a history of oppression under systems of male domination and hierarchy despite rising standards of living.

 

Harsher is relative. And liberation isn't inherently hostile to other people. A major goal could be how to live peacefully with non-mages. The rest of your post I don't really understand.

[Xilizhra]

Elthina was actively keeping Meredith back from cracking down worse. but I suppose its too much to consider that the Chantry doesn't actually want to butcher every mage they have.  She might have been able to do more true, but lets not pretend she was firmly 100% pro-templar

Elthina tacitly allowed all of Meredith's excesses. There are quite a few things she could have done, such as calling in the Seekers, who are allegedly supposed to handle this kind of situation.

 

 

Quite possibly.  Especially with Ferelden's army on the march.  At the very least, Alexius would have zero pretense to hang out in Redcliffe.  And Redcliffe would simply have to hold out until Alistair/Anora shows up

So there's no reason for Fiona to have sided with Alexius at all, thus creating a gigantic plot hole. It seems far more likely that Redcliffe just couldn't stand up to the templars alone.

 

 

Debatable.  But the hundreds of Kirkwaller civilians definitely were.

Quite so, far more of whom were murdered by templars.

 

 

And in concealing it he validated every paranoid delusion about mages Meredith had.

Nonsense. Meredith didn't even find out about it, and it never affected her actions.

[Steelcan]

Elthina tacitly allowed all of Meredith's excesses. There are quite a few things she could have done, such as calling in the Seekers, who are allegedly supposed to handle this kind of situation.

isn't that what the DLC with Leliana was about?

 

I never played it so I can't really comment on it

[Steelcan]

 

 

Quite so, far more of whom were murdered by templars.

proof?

[Daerog]

Yes. Mages are people. And jail innocent people (chidren!) for what they perhaps someday commit, simple wrong. I think.

To be fair on the children bit, children could be easily fooled by demons and they don't know how to control their powers without instruction. A mage kid was blowing stuff up on accident until Templars were able to help, according to Sera. By living in an enchanted building, they are safer with all the magic safeguards. Less worry about demons for kids or accidently exploding the kid who called you a mean name.

Only old vint buildings were the safest places for teaching magic, and there isn't a lot of them around.

One could argue that after being well taught, a mage should go free, but it is best for the kids to be taught in the safest environments (ignoring evil templars and corrupt enchanters). Unfortunately, the south isn't requesting Tevinter to build more magical towers closer to villages where families are. Then again, many mundanes would probably not want to live around so much magic.

[Xilizhra]

Elthina and Templars weren't the only casualties of that magic bomb. There were everyday Andrastians there.

If you rival Anders, he admits he's a monster who is killing innocents and doesn't think he can stop, and then asks for death. IIRC.

Gaslighting has that effect, yes. I was not faced with this problem. Also, there's no proof of any "everyday Andrastians" being present.

 

Also, Fiona had no right to sell out her charges like that. Agree to Alexius' deal, sure, but then should have broken it and tried to help mages leave if they wanted. It just tarnishes her reputation for going along with it. She was a bad leader who made bad calls, the mages should have looked to a better mage to lead them in their rebellion... if there was one...

Fiona's unimportant, in the end. The templars were the oppressors and aggressors alike, and I wouldn't support them no matter who was leading the mages.

 

isn't that what the DLC with Leliana was about?

 

I never played it so I can't really comment on it

No, that was spying on the mages, i.e. the wrong problem.

 

 

proof?

That is the Annulment, yes?

[Iakus]

 
One could argue that after being well taught, a mage should go free, but it is best for the kids to be taught in the safest environments (ignoring evil templars and corrupt enchanters). Unfortunately, the south isn't requesting Tevinter to build more magical towers closer to villages where families are. Then again, many mundanes would probably not want to live around so much magic.

And mages can leave, with permission from their First Enchanter.

[Catilina]

To be fair on the children bit, children could be easily fooled by demons and they don't know how to control their powers without instruction. A mage kid was blowing stuff up on accident until Templars were able to help, according to Sera. By living in an enchanted building, they are safer with all the magic safeguards. Less worry about demons for kids or accidently exploding the kid who called you a mean name.

Only old vint buildings were the safest places for teaching magic, and there isn't a lot of them around.

One could argue that after being well taught, a mage should go free, but it is best for the kids to be taught in the safest environments (ignoring evil templars and corrupt enchanters). Unfortunately, the south isn't requesting Tevinter to build more magical towers closer to villages where families are. Then again, many mundanes would probably not want to live around so much magic.

Yes. The kids need education. But not in a jailhouse.

[thesuperdarkone2]

And mages can leave, with permission from their First Enchanter.

Only for short periods of time. They can't leave the circle forever

[Steelcan]

Only for short periods of time. They can't leave the circle forever

and the plethora of mages that are clearly exceptions to that?

 

Either they can stay away for extended periods of time, the templars don't care if mages stay away too long, or you incorrect about this matter.  I'll not hazard a guess at the truth

[Cadeym]

Any person in thedas is allowed to buy a weapon and wield it in public, and as such the person is capable of being a danger to others. Magic may cause a person to be more of a danger, but that is the only difference.

[Steelcan]

Yes. The kids need education. But not in a jailhouse.

I'd like to know what jails the Circles are based off of, extended leave periods, profitable business running...

[fhs33721]

It is evidence that there were abuses which is something I have never denied. However, take Alrik for instance.

Karl in act 1 and then two more confirmed victims three years later means precisely that it's not something that happened frequently.

We literally have a pool of less than ten mages to describe their experiences with the number of Templars whom we know were guilty of abusive behavior at some point in time being less than that; Meredith, Karras, Alrik.

Not only is this population far too small to reach any accurate results, we don't even have any idea whether something like Karras raping Alain; which is unforgivable, of course; is something that happened frequently or just the once.

This is stupid. How many definite cases of abuse do you demand to be shown onscreen in order to accept that frequent abuse existed. Apparently 5, with more being heavily implied are not enough.  Apparently the fact that literally no mage we talk to feels confortable in the Kirkwall circle (Even Bethany outright says that she's afraid of certain templars in this letter that is inanely brought up as proof that everything is dandy.) isn't enough evidence either. Or the fact that even some templars (Thrask, Samson, Carver) are dissatisfied about the conditions there, to the point where Thrask didn't even want his own daughter to be in the Kirkwall circle.

Of course we don't see 20+ cases of abuse happen on screen. DA2 was a game withlimited content after all. But pretty much everything presented in game implies that the Kirkwall circle is a really crappy place to live in as mage. And as said before Cullen admits as much in DAI.

According to the line of reasoning you are follwing here the Alienage in Denerim was a mighty great place to life in because whe only have definite knowledge of one abduction and rape. Absolutely no proof that this was a common occurence.

[Catilina]

Only for short periods of time. They can't leave the circle forever

And if they can go out, they can summon a bunch of demon in the city. Or burn with fireballs...

The Circle system is not a solution.  Cruel and weak.

[Iakus]

Elthina tacitly allowed all of Meredith's excesses. There are quite a few things she could have done, such as calling in the Seekers, who are allegedly supposed to handle this kind of situation.

 

The Seekers were called in to investigate Meredith.  Several times, according to Cassandra.  And while they found her methods harsh, there was also so much magical corruption found that she always ended up being cleared.  Cassandra now regrets not looking more closely at her.

 

 

 

So there's no reason for Fiona to have sided with Alexius at all, thus creating a gigantic plot hole. It seems far more likely that Redcliffe just couldn't stand up to the templars alone.

Nope.  Plot hole.  Thus why I typically go Templar

 

 

 

Quite so, far more of whom were murdered by templars.

 

Even if true.  Not a valid excuse.  It's terrorism, plain and simple

 

 

Nonsense. Meredith didn't even find out about it, and it never affected her actions.

But his actions are specifically the type of thing she feared.  Circle mages concealing blood magic, aiding and abetting murderous apostates.  So in order to avoid reprisals against the Circle he goes and does the very ting that Meredith's paranoia would have her believe the Circle was doing and...enforce reprisals.  

[Steelcan]

Any person in thedas is allowed to buy a weapon and wield it in public, and as such the person is capable of being a danger to others. Magic may cause a person to be more of a danger, but that is the only difference.

I grow tired of this line of argument

 

First off, not all people can wield weapons, elves are prohibited from buying them, peasants don't have the time or money to buy/train with them, that leaves only the nobility and precious few others with access to weapons.  Furthermore, it takes quite a bit of training to become proficient with a weapon so as to go around kill everyone you see.

 

All it takes for a mage is a really bad day.

[Iakus]

I'd like to know what jails the Circles are based off of, extended leave periods, profitable business running...

The Xavier School for Gifted Youngsters?  

[Cadeym]

I grow tired of this line of argument

 

First off, not all people can wield weapons, elves are prohibited from buying them, peasants don't have the time or money to buy/train with them, that leaves only the nobility and previous few others with access to weapons.  Furthermore, it takes quite a bit of training to become proficient with a weapon so as to go around kill everyone you see.

 

All it takes for a mage is a really bad day.

Stabbing some random person in the back doesn't require anything other than a sharp item. Just because someone is able to endanger others isn't a justifiable reason to lock them up. How much of a danger should a normal theodasian pose before they should be locked up without having done anything wrong?