1158 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Corypheus?

 

Supposition!

 

Even if Anders agrees with it.

[Xilizhra]

Corypheus?

Oh, they went into the Black City, but I find it extremely unlikely that they became the first darkspawn.

[Hellion Rex]

I will need an actual, factual citation on this. Not Chantry supposition.

Um...magisters went in, darkspawn came out. What more do you need? They sure let it loose by choosing to breach the City.

[Hellion Rex]

Oh, they went into the Black City, but I find it extremely unlikely that they became the first darkspawn.

When I spoke of them, I was simply referring to how due to their actions in breaching the City, they let the blight out (possibly again, but you get the point).

[Xilizhra]

Um...magisters went in, darkspawn came out. What more do you need? They sure let it loose by choosing to breach the City.

Assuming that more than seven darkspawn came out. We still don't know if that was the cause. Corypheus spoke of things that match the darkspawn taint, but nothing of any army of darkspawn locked in the Black City.

[Daerog]

There were ghouls in the past, but never any Blights before. I'm guessing the blight was always around, though. With current knowledge, it seems like the Magisters Sidereal were the first darkspawn (born from the blight, like how Archie was implied to be born like other emissaries) and brought the Blights. The events intersect in history and few oppose that interpretation. Could it be wrong? The writers could always reveal some hidden lore that says there were darkspawn before... that destroyed the previous world... then the new world is born... to be consumed again in a cycle of destruction and creation.

Maybe we can ask the underground lizard people, if one can ever be found again.

[Steelcan]

Its entirely possible the darkspawn taint existed prior to Cory taking a stroll past the "do not walk in the Fade" sign. But there's 0 evidence that the Blights started before the Magisters were kicked out.

[Sports72Xtrm]

So we justify the persecution and hate on mages forever because mundanes think the fairytale about mages are solely the reason why there are blights is true? Seems like faulty idiotic reasoning of scared men trying to shift the blame to a scapegoat just to feel better about the horror of the world, even if the two things could possibly not even be related. What if being a mage doesn't have anything to do with why the Blight's started? What if any mundane could have done it, maybe even by accident? Magic has been a part of Thedas for who knows how long, and the Blights and the Tiaint could have resurfaced just by someone, ANYONE, -mage or muggle- doing something unintentionally foolish like touching an Eluvian. Blaming all mages for the blight is the same sort of blame shifting similar to people blaming AIDS on gay people based on some hearsay. Ridiculous.

[Steelcan]

Except we know that the Blight and the Tevinter assault on the Golden City are connected.

Its not a reason why mages should continue to be kept in Circles, its an example of why they cant have political power at the expense of all others.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Except we know that the Blight and the Tevinter assault on the Golden City are connected.

Its not a reason why mages should continue to be kept in Circles, its an example of why they cant have political power at the expense of all others.

Right because muggles are so pure and non conniving that they couldn't possibly find a way to strong arm a mage to do some dangerous magical ritual if they for example wanted to be a god or meet their god? Last I remember, people like Sophia Dryden and Grey Wardens condoned blood magic that freed demons and Corypheus. Even almost caused the gryphons to be extinct. Some even formed a cult called the empty ones that revere the taint. Or the Order of Fiery Promise led by a muggle Seeker by the way, wants to destroy the world. Even the templars began to use red lyrium just to gain power. You don't need to be a mage to be willing to do anything for your cause, just desperate. Desperate men are the real threat. Being a mage is unrelated to being duped into unleashing horror. Seeing as mages actually study magic and its effects, most of the time they'd come into magical affairs more informed than the muggles.

[Daerog]

Mages can kill multitudes by accident, have their soul trapped by a demon, cause a demon to trap mundane souls, mind control, and many other bad things a mundane can't. A mundane and mage live radically different lives, regardless of societal rules.

  

The Circle is not about crime prevention. It's about the nature of magic and mages.
Mages can trap someone into living stone forever. Mages can speed up healing faster than any poultice. Mages can have their souls ensnared by a demon. Mages can destroy a platoon of soldiers in a single attack. Mages can walk the Fade. Mages can control minds.
Bla, bla, anything you can do, I can do better, I can do anything better than you, blah.
There are mages in prestigious stations, similar to nobility, like Mortalitasi and Seers. Removing restrictions will make mage nobles. Saying nobles are bad but mundane, yet mages have greater power to do bad things only makes the idea of mage nobles terrifying.
Even without the demon stuff, I do like that DA is pointing out the social tension that can happen in a world of people being born with magic and without. Superiority claims would be frequent and, without the drawbacks, could be seen as true. Sure, there are similar stories and tropes, but still like it pointed out. A little like being born into nobility, but instead it is based on nature, not social construct.

[Qun00]

What Morrigan says in The Last Court is pretty interesting.

"Magic thrives on use. A mage who fears her magic cannot master it. When the demons come calling, she will not have the strength to deny them. The Circles are a cage made from fear.

I cannot decide who is more stupid: the ones who built the cage, or the ones who allow themselves to be put in it".

[Daerog]

Ya, Morrigan has had a negative opinion of the Circle since we met her. Nothing new. Those scared of magic are likely to be weaker in it, but one only needs strength of mind to prevent possession... unless a mage is forcing a demon in you, like in DA2.

Viv wasn't afraid of her magic, neither was Irving. Circle mages are taught magic in order to respect it, and one should have a healthy dose of fear on matters greater and more powerful than themselves. Having a healthy dose of fear on things, like gravity or weapons, is good and part of survival.

[Sports72Xtrm]

So Morrigan who's been taught by Flemeth and Mythal knows less about magic than the Circle with their half learned censored  and fettered academia... ok...I'm guessing the Circle people are the same people that think evolution in science books should be replaced by the bible and sex ed talks replaced by abstinence.

[Lulupab]

Remind me again who let this stuff loose? Pretty sure it beats everything you mentioned.

 

NEWS FLASH!

 

Every single mage responsible for this was also a noble. The ultimate power, being both a noble and a mage. So yes Nobles again. Actually them being a noble was much more significant than being a mage because it gave them the authority to have thousands of blood sacrifices and tons of Lyrium because its canon that they needed these resources to enter the black city. Even if they were not mages themselves, they could hire mages to do it for them. So nobility is again a much bigger threat than magic.

 

Also Xil is right to some degree, the blight and darkspawn pretty much predate everything, so the magisters did not create them they merely allowed them to enter this world. In other words the blight was a time bomb, if not Magisters I'm sure someone or something else would have done it.

[Steelcan]

NEWS FLASH!

 

Every single mage responsible for this was also a noble. The ultimate power, being both a noble and a mage. So yes Nobles again. Actually them being a noble was much more significant than being a mage because it gave them the authority to have thousands of blood sacrifices and tons of Lyrium because its canon that they needed these resources to enter the black city. Even if they were not mages themselves, they could hire mages to do it for them. So nobility is again a much bigger threat than magic.

 

Also Xil is right to some degree, the blight and darkspawn pretty much predate everything, so the magisters did not create them they merely allowed them to enter this world. In other words the blight was a time bomb, if not Magisters I'm sure someone or something else would have done it.

"sure officer I didn't set the bomb, I merely set it off" is going to in approximately 0% of courts

[Lulupab]

"sure officer I didn't set the bomb, I merely set it off" is going to in approximately 0% of courts

 

Like many other things.

 

Someone planted that bomb, someone else set it off. He will be punished of course, but not to the full extent and the court will try to find who planted it.

 

But seriously, I think Solas knows all about the blight and where it comes from, he has to. But of course the dialogue is never in the game because it would spoil future games.

[Lord of War]

"sure officer I didn't set the bomb, I merely set it off" is going to in approximately 0% of courts

 

It might if they didn't know it was a bomb in the first place.

[Steelcan]

It might if they didn't know it was a bomb in the first place.

well we know that's not applicable in this case, Corypheus admits that the magisters willingly took in the Blight.

[Iakus]

I am reminded of that one text game story in the Keep. The noble who was secretly a mage... wasn't he nicknamed The Shame or something? It's good he didn't go all homicidal, iirc, but he did lose himself to a demon, sadly.

Out of all the bad stuff that can happen to a Thedosian (especially a mage), having your soul taken as a demon's plaything must be the worst. How many years did the Baroness keep her subjects? Time doesn't flow like it does in the material world, it could have felt longer to the victims.

Yep.

 

The thing is, magic is an inherently chaotic force, which a mage bends to its will.  But it's still chaotic by nature.  This is not Harry Potter magic.  It takes a disciplined, focused mind to control it or terrible things start happening.

 

And that is its danger.  The "gift" of magic can appear in anyone.  Without regard to ability to control it.  Not everyone can control it and not everyone who can control it will use it to good ends.  

[Lord of War]

well we know that's not applicable in this case, Corypheus admits that the magisters willingly took in the Blight.

 

Not really. I can't imagine they knew what the Blight even was, besides the power the Old Gods promised them. It's more like a mad bomber setting up a network to blow up a city, and tricking some visiting businessmen into pushing the wrong elevator button.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Yep.

 

The thing is, magic is an inherently chaotic force, which a mage bends to its will.  But it's still chaotic by nature.  This is not Harry Potter magic.  It takes a disciplined, focused mind to control it or terrible things start happening.

 

And that is its danger.  The "gift" of magic can appear in anyone.  Without regard to ability to control it.  Not everyone can control it and not everyone who can control it will use it to good ends.  

 

Magic is by its very nature chaotic, unpredictable and supernatural in nature. It employs the usage of rituals, symbols, actions, gestures, language, invocations, prayers, sacrifices and associative thinking (the perceived ability of the mind to affect the physical world) with the aim of exploiting supernatural forces.

 

That is why one should not associate magic with science, for science is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe. There is nothing supernatural in science and no requirement of prayers or invocations or gestures or associative thinking.

 

Furthermore, Harry Potter magic is just as chaotic actually. Remember when Wizards and Witches first manifest their powers in Harry Potter universe, they can manifest it in the most unpredictable and dangerous ways. Harry talking to snakes, Harry blowing up his aunt, etc. Only a select few like Lord Voldemort could consciously control their magic in their childhood years before requiring to go to a magical school.

[Xilizhra]

Magic is by its very nature chaotic, unpredictable and supernatural in nature. It employs the usage of rituals, symbols, actions, gestures, language, invocations, prayers, sacrifices and associative thinking (the perceived ability of the mind to affect the physical world) with the aim of exploiting supernatural forces.

 

That is why one should not associate magic with science, for science is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe. There is nothing supernatural in science and no requirement of prayers or invocations or gestures or associative thinking.

 

Furthermore, Harry Potter magic is just as chaotic actually. Remember when Wizards and Witches first manifest their powers in Harry Potter universe, they can manifest it in the most unpredictable and dangerous ways. Harry talking to snakes, Harry blowing up his aunt, etc. Only a select few like Lord Voldemort could consciously control their magic in their childhood years before requiring to go to a magical school.

Yes, magic is not science, just as water, storms and meteorites are not science. Science can, however, be applied to make observations and test theories about them, and the same is true for magic, which is a natural phenomenon in the world of Thedas. Also, the mind can affect the physical world IRL as well; the mind is part of the physical world, after all. Generally here, it can only affect itself or the body housing it, but in Dragon Age, where part of one's mind has an inherent link to the Fade (the source of magic), it's entirely logical that mental effort can affect the Fade as well.

[Beerfish]

So we justify the persecution and hate on mages forever because mundanes think the fairytale about mages are solely the reason why there are blights is true? Seems like faulty idiotic reasoning of scared men trying to shift the blame to a scapegoat just to feel better about the horror of the world, even if the two things could possibly not even be related. What if being a mage doesn't have anything to do with why the Blight's started? What if any mundane could have done it, maybe even by accident? Magic has been a part of Thedas for who knows how long, and the Blights and the Tiaint could have resurfaced just by someone, ANYONE, -mage or muggle- doing something unintentionally foolish like touching an Eluvian. Blaming all mages for the blight is the same sort of blame shifting similar to people blaming AIDS on gay people based on some hearsay. Ridiculous.

No current hate on mages has little to do with the whole Tevinter thing.  It's the huge preponderance of abominations running around, whole mage circles rebelling, the huge increase in blood magic, some mages doing suspect research into a variety of things like curing tranquillity, and some circle 1st enchanters behaving very dubiously.

 

The people of red cliff don't care a fig about the blight, what they do care about is that one small mage child got possessed by a demon and ruined their town killing hundreds.

[Iakus]

No current hate on mages has little to do with the whole Tevinter thing.  It's the huge preponderance of abominations running around, whole mage circles rebelling, the huge increase in blood magic, some mages doing suspect research into a variety of things like curing tranquillity, and some circle 1st enchanters behaving very dubiously.

 

The people of red cliff don't care a fig about the blight, what they do care about is that one small mage child got possessed by a demon and ruined their town killing hundreds.

"With great power comes great responsibility"

 

Unfortunately, there are some very irresponsible people with the power to kill people with their minds.