"With great power comes great responsibility"
Unfortunately, there are some very irresponsible people with the power to kill people with their minds.
How fortunate we are that no spate of mind-killings broke out after the dissolution of the Circle was finalized.
How fortunate we are that no spate of mind-killings broke out after the dissolution of the Circle was finalized.
We'll need to see the next book or game to know that for sure.
That the next game will almost certainly be set in Tevinter tells me there'll likely be a lot of mind-killings
We'll need to see the next book or game to know that for sure.
That the next game will almost certainly be set in Tevinter tells me there'll likely be a lot of mind-killings
Which won't be affected by actions taken in DAI either way, so it means nothing. And the fourth game will, I can almost guarantee, go into as little detail about DAI as DAI did about previous games, particularly when the convergence of outcomes post-Trespasser takes away even more of Bioware's burden of worldbuilding. I'm reasonably sure that Trespasser will be more or less the final word on how the mage situation will go from now on.
There also won't be a book hinging on a player choice.
"With great power comes great responsibility"
Unfortunately, there are some very irresponsible people with the power to kill people with their minds.
That is the part of the reason, even people that are totally benevolent in nature such as Connor there is still great danger. As I've said before in the end what happens in the long run is not about how templars view mages or mages view templars it is about how the general population views each of them. The vast majority of the populace couldn't care less about the high minded long winded discussions all of us are having in this thread. The average citizen of thedas is much smaller than the entirety of this discussion.
Village or town or Bann is negatively impacted by mages they will hate mages and treat them like outcasts, same with Templars. If you talked to the people of Redcliffe I would imagine they all lover templars and hates mages with a passion.
We'll need to see the next book or game to know that for sure.
That the next game will almost certainly be set in Tevinter tells me there'll likely be a lot of mind-killings
Lol except to be disappointed then. In Tevinter only the mages who run out of favor and are a threat to others' rise to power are made tranquil. Its a political silencing tool, not a means to control magic.
That is the part of the reason, even people that are totally benevolent in nature such as Connor there is still great danger. As I've said before in the end what happens in the long run is not about how templars view mages or mages view templars it is about how the general population views each of them. The vast majority of the populace couldn't care less about the high minded long winded discussions all of us are having in this thread. The average citizen of thedas is much smaller than the entirety of this discussion.
Village or town or Bann is negatively impacted by mages they will hate mages and treat them like outcasts, same with Templars. If you talked to the people of Redcliffe I would imagine they all lover templars and hates mages with a passion.
Actually, the people of Redcliffe, when one listens to ambient dialogue, seem to favor mages over templars.
Actually, the people of Redcliffe, when one listens to ambient dialogue, seem to favor mages over templars.
Yep, even the mothers of Chantry.
Which won't be affected by actions taken in DAI either way, so it means nothing. And the fourth game will, I can almost guarantee, go into as little detail about DAI as DAI did about previous games, particularly when the convergence of outcomes post-Trespasser takes away even more of Bioware's burden of worldbuilding. I'm reasonably sure that Trespasser will be more or less the final word on how the mage situation will go from now on.
There also won't be a book hinging on a player choice.
Trespasser, if anything, narrows the divergence caused by DAI. In every outcome now, there is a Circle and a College. Thus we are likely to see the repercussions of having self-governing mages vs Circles.
And Tevinter is a mage society where the Circles have operated unrestricted for centuries, and is pretty much the poster child for the kinds of abuses irresponsible mages can and do heap upon muggles.
Actually, the people of Redcliffe, when one listens to ambient dialogue, seem to favor mages over templars.
As in who in particular? All the mages that fled to that location after the blast?
All I'll say is if that is the case they have short memories or more likely BioWare in their failings to try and balance things down played the effect of the previous Red cliffe debacle would have on a town.
Trespasser, if anything, narrows the divergence caused by DAI. In every outcome now, there is a Circle and a College. Thus we are likely to see the repercussions of having self-governing mages vs Circles.
Well, the Circle in Leliana's ending isn't Chantry-governed, so it's really just another College with a more iron-fisted leader, unless Vivienne finagles a lyrium deal with the dwarves and starts creating her own templars.
And Tevinter is a mage society where the Circles have operated unrestricted for centuries, and is pretty much the poster child for the kinds of abuses irresponsible mages can and do heap upon muggles.
Actually, it's more the poster child for the kinds of abuses dickish nobles heap upon their social inferiors, while having magic. So it's not too different from Orlais.
That is the part of the reason, even people that are totally benevolent in nature such as Connor there is still great danger. As I've said before in the end what happens in the long run is not about how templars view mages or mages view templars it is about how the general population views each of them. The vast majority of the populace couldn't care less about the high minded long winded discussions all of us are having in this thread. The average citizen of thedas is much smaller than the entirety of this discussion.
Worse, thanks to being susceptible to demonic possession, even a good and benevolent mage can be turned to evil against their will.
Being a mage in Thedas is truly being Blessed With Suck
Lol except to be disappointed then. In Tevinter only the mages who run out of favor and are a threat to others' rise to power are made tranquil. Its a political silencing tool, not a means to control magic.
You misunderstand. "Mind-killing" was a term I sued for killing someone with magic. As in River Tam's comment in Firefly "Also, I can kill you with my brain"
Well, the Circle in Leliana's ending isn't Chantry-governed, so it's really just another College with a more iron-fisted leader, unless Vivienne finagles a lyrium deal with the dwarves and starts creating her own templars.
You don't think she can manage that? 
Actually, it's more the poster child for the kinds of abuses dickish nobles heap upon their social inferiors, while having magic. So it's not too different from Orlais.
In general, this is true. But I suspect Tevinter has considerably more human (and elven) sacrifice. Not to mention an ongoing eugenics program to create better mages.
Worse, thanks to being susceptible to demonic possession, even a good and benevolent mage can be turned to evil against their will.
Being a mage in Thedas is truly being Blessed With Suck
You misunderstand. "Mind-killing" was a term I sued for killing someone with magic. As in River Tam's comment in Firefly "Also, I can kill you with my brain"
Oh, my bad then. In this forum mind-killing has been associated with tranquility a lot of times so I just assumed.
As in who in particular? All the mages that fled to that location after the blast?
All I'll say is if that is the case they have short memories or more likely BioWare in their failings to try and balance things down played the effect of the previous Red cliffe debacle would have on a town.
Or perhaps they just don't have the same sentiments you feel that they should.
You don't think she can manage that?
She could. I doubt it would give mages much incentive to stay in her Circle, unless, well, she started forcibly detaining them and kidnapping children. Which both sound like problems the Inquisition should put a stop to.
In general, this is true. But I suspect Tevinter has considerably more human (and elven) sacrifice. Not to mention an ongoing eugenics program to create better mages.
Murder is murder, and Orlais has plenty of it. And their eugenics program is little different from arranged marriages among the southern nobility, they're just after magical power more than alliances.
She could. I doubt it would give mages much incentive to stay in her Circle, unless, well, she started forcibly detaining them and kidnapping children. Which both sound like problems the Inquisition should put a stop to.
Given Vivienne seems perfectly okay with mages coming and going from Circles as long as they check with the First Enchanter first, and sees Templars as protectors of mages rather than jailers, I doubt she'll be forcibly detaining people.
Murder is murder, and Orlais has plenty of it. And their eugenics program is little different from arranged marriages among the southern nobility, they're just after magical power more than alliances.
Sure, I'm certain Orlais and Tevinter has plenty of murder. Nobles thinking they can do whatever they want with peasants and such.
But Tevinter has people torturing people to death specifically to increase personal power. Over and above the crimes of Orlais or any other medieval one-upsmanship.
And again, Tevinter's eugenics program is more than alliances and political power. That already exists. Mage politics is already cutthroat. This is something beyond that. Something uniquely magical.
In other words: Tevinter already has the worst features of Orlais, and then some, due specifically to being run by power-hungry mages. There is a reason why Tevinter is seen as the most evil empire next to the Qunari.
Given Vivienne seems perfectly okay with mages coming and going from Circles as long as they check with the First Enchanter first, and sees Templars as protectors of mages rather than jailers, I doubt she'll be forcibly detaining people.
So it'll basically be another College, with addict guards.
Given Vivienne seems perfectly okay with mages coming and going from Circles as long as they check with the First Enchanter first, and sees Templars as protectors of mages rather than jailers, I doubt she'll be forcibly detaining people.
Sure, I'm certain Orlais and Tevinter has plenty of murder. Nobles thinking they can do whatever they want with peasants and such.
But Tevinter has people torturing people to death specifically to increase personal power. Over and above the crimes of Orlais or any other medieval one-upsmanship.
And again, Tevinter's eugenics program is more than alliances and political power. That already exists. Mage politics is already cutthroat. This is something beyond that. Something uniquely magical.
In other words: Tevinter already has the worst features of Orlais, and then some, due specifically to being run by power-hungry mages. There is a reason why Tevinter is seen as the most evil empire next to the Qunari.
What makes it "over and above" other forms of torturing to death? Do you surmise that it's more frequent?
No current hate on mages has little to do with the whole Tevinter thing. It's the huge preponderance of abominations running around, whole mage circles rebelling, the huge increase in blood magic, some mages doing suspect research into a variety of things like curing tranquillity, and some circle 1st enchanters behaving very dubiously.
The people of red cliff don't care a fig about the blight, what they do care about is that one small mage child got possessed by a demon and ruined their town killing hundreds.
So the muggle answer is to bully the human nuclear warhead into submission, interesting tactic to prevent utter annihilation. Tell me, why should mages heed this hysteria? Sure in times past, muggles were able to coerce mage compliance through threats of tranquility, a lobotomization producing compliant docile slaves but now that the cat is out of the bag that the threat could be reversed, what's to motivate these mages to just unleash those magical horrors on the populace if they know their only future is a cell or abuse? The pro-Circle like to spout the narrative that mages are ticking time bombs, or dragons unable to control their nature even though it's factually untrue. At best they are intelligent people with a gun grafted on to them, with out training they could shoot themselves in the foot, with training they can direct it, not pull the trigger, or shoot you. If mages break into every mage prison, reverse every tranquility either causing chaos or strengthening their numbers, what's to stop another mage revolt from spiraling out of control? Mages that apparently are so powerful as you said, could destroy villages and armies, and all the magical horror blah blah is not a case for mages should submit, its a case that mages are able to fight, but can't be intimidated or strongarmed now that they know how to fight tranquility. What happens then? Either the mages, fed up with muggle abuse will bring them to heel out of necessity since a hysteric mob is just as dangerous as an unchecked dragon, or the muggles annul every mage ever born and we'll see how the populace react to that solution for long. Maybe the average people of Redcliff should think about this, or at least leaders hopefully smarter than them because like it or not, it could affect them.
Maybe the Chantry should use that religion to promote peace and compromise with the mages instead of fear and hatred. Gisselle was able to promote an understanding between a mage in the Inquisition using healing magic on a hysteric muggle. It could end like that, or it could end in chaos and zealotry which muggles seem to think promotes order.
So it'll basically be another College, with addict guards.
*shrug* Or it will be the Xavier School for Gifted Youngsters with armed guards. Time will tell.
What makes it "over and above" other forms of torturing to death? Do you surmise that it's more frequent?
That it happens at all automatically makes it "more frequent"
Look at it this way: in both Tevinter and Orlais, there are nobles who abuse their station, they murder, rape, and steal simply because they feel it is their right.
But in Tevinter, on top of all that, there are mages who will murder slaves in blood magic rituals (and they die bloody and painfully) to increase their own power, to defend themselves against other blood mages. Or just for magical experimentation.
Tevinter and Orlais both have the usual atrocities. But Tevinter has a whole other level of atrocity that simply doesn't exist in Orlais
It is the Chantry's teaching regarding magic and mages that caused mages to be seen negatively by many people. At the same time they kept mages and the rest of Thedas separated which widened the gap between them even more, resulting in neither group understanding the other. And it's the Chantry and the Templars who, ultimately, caused (or were at least instrumental in causing) such things as Kirkwall, the Broken Circle and the Connor/Isolde problem. Leliana changes that and surprise: people become more tolerant of mages.
In part, yes. Or rather, a particular interpretation of the Chant:
Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.
Foul and corrupt are they
Who have taken His gift
And turned it against His children.
They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.
They shall find no rest in this world
Or beyond.
they seemed to have forgotten those two lines. Mages are not "foul and corrupt" It is mages who use their magic against others.
The intention of the Circle of Magi was to be a haven for mages. Where they can practice magic in peace without being chased by an angry mob (remember, Kordillus Drakon was instrumental in creating the Nevarran Accords, and he was BFFs with a Dalish mage!) And the purpose of Templars was to protect mages from said mobs as much as to protect muggles from mages who misused their power (or went abomination)
I think the latter part is part of why Templars tend to mistreat mages. They found it difficult to befriend those whom they might someday be called upon to kill to save others. So they kept themselves apart, try to not see them as people. And things went south from there.
Given Vivienne seems perfectly okay with mages coming and going from Circles as long as they check with the First Enchanter first, and sees Templars as protectors of mages rather than jailers, I doubt she'll be forcibly detaining people.
I find it credible that even in the most Pro-Mage playthrough possible, the College will choose to voluntarely isolate itself.
Fact is, it's not the Chantry that teaches people to hate mages, it's the mage's own actions and, regardless of how much a Divine may wish to change that, one does not go from mothers shuning their sons and mages being unable to be in taverns for an hour without a lynch mob forming to them being able to safely walk into cities.
Mages need to be separated from common folk in day to day living, because they simply don't match. A simple example is a mage can do the job of hundred peasants all by himself, that's not actually good. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't interact at all. The College does this interaction, but mages don't live with mundanes.
In a pro-mage playthrough mages save the world, literally. They fight the red Templars and people see it. According to various sources the majority of southern mages were in redcliff, now this "majority" can actually range from 51% to 99%. But I think 60% to 70% is a safe bet. If all of them joined Inquisition (which they did) then they are pretty much one of the main forces of Inquisition. In simpler words Inquisition didn't do anything without the help of the mages, so they get credit for everything. I don't know, seems pretty convincing that people shift their opinion towards mages.
*shrug* Or it will be the Xavier School for Gifted Youngsters with armed guards. Time will tell.
How is that different from what I said?
That it happens at all automatically makes it "more frequent"
Look at it this way: in both Tevinter and Orlais, there are nobles who abuse their station, they murder, rape, and steal simply because they feel it is their right.
But in Tevinter, on top of all that, there are mages who will murder slaves in blood magic rituals (and they die bloody and painfully) to increase their own power, to defend themselves against other blood mages. Or just for magical experimentation.
Tevinter and Orlais both have the usual atrocities. But Tevinter has a whole other level of atrocity that simply doesn't exist in Orlais
Your mistake is seeing this as all cumulative. A murderous Tevinter won't murder more than a murderous Orlesian, he'll just make use of the murders to add magical power to himself. Also, plenty of blood magic rituals that we've seen onscreen have involved relatively quick deaths.
I find it credible that even in the most Pro-Mage playthrough possible, the College will choose to voluntarely isolate itself.
Fact is, it's not the Chantry that teaches people to hate mages, it's the mage's own actions and, regardless of how much a Divine may wish to change that, one does not go from mothers shuning their sons and mages being unable to be in taverns for an hour without a lynch mob forming to them being able to safely walk into cities.
While Redcliffe's relatively welcoming attitude would seem to belie this, I wouldn't consider it a problem to have the Colleges not take up spots in other cities. Towns may grow around them, however.
How is that different from what I said?
"addict guards", probably. I'd like to think Vivienne would have the physical and mental well-being of Templars in mind as much as that of the mages.
Your mistake is seeing this as all cumulative. A murderous Tevinter won't murder more than a murderous Orlesian, he'll just make use of the murders to add magical power to himself. Also, plenty of blood magic rituals that we've seen onscreen have involved relatively quick deaths.
I disagree. We already know that Tevinter politics is quite cutthroat, and mages can do pretty much whatever they want with soporoti. But blood magic is kept quiet, even if everybody knows about it. Those murders are kept quiet.
And WoT outright states that blood magic rituals are more powerful if the death is lingering and painful. So a quick cut might be good for relatively smaller feats of magic. But a stronger ritual will require something more drawn-out.
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