1158 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

While Redcliffe's relatively welcoming attitude would seem to belie this, I wouldn't consider it a problem to have the Colleges not take up spots in other cities. Towns may grow around them, however.

Redcliff being the one town in Thedas that didn't shut its gates to mages.

 

I suppose it's the reason Bioware gave two deliberately vague options. Anyone can just claim they work in any way for any reasons and so long as they stick to Nevarra and above, they can avoid having to work out how they actually work.

[Gervaise]

Going to do my devil's advocate a bit here but I am beginning to feel that there is in fact very little difference between abuse of power by a Tevinter Altus and abuse of power by an Orlesian noble as part of the game.    Both are quite prepared to sacrifice the lives of others of lower station than themselves in order to advance their political power.    In both cases the skill is meant to be not getting caught doing it but nevertheless everyone knowing that you probably did, so they will be impressed by your ability to manipulate things in your favour.

 

When Celene wanted to get the support of the noble who could both arrange the assassination of Florian and promote her cause with the Council of Heralds, she sacrificed an entire household of servants simply because there was a potential risk that one of them might gossip about her activities and she had to convince the noble that she was prepared to do anything to avoid risk of discovery.    Please tell me how that is less evil than a Tevinter Magister sacrificing a slave to fuel their blood magic?   Both are deplorable but I fail to see how using it to improve their magic, instead of simply their social standing, is a greater crime.

 

As I've posted up above, after Hessarian knocked out the leading Altus, Tevinter operated with the Soporati having equal chance to rise to power as the Altus or Laetans for at least 150 years and probably longer.    If magic gave you such an age, what took them so long?   The set up that existed in Tevinter then seemed ideal, with mages being properly trained in state sponsored schools and non-mages able to gain leading positions in both their Chantry and the Magisterium.

 

What changed everything was the rise of the southern Chantry and their prejudice against magic, which clearly made the mages of Tevinter more determined to wrest power back or risk being shut up in mage towers under guard like those down south.     The first rule of the southern Chantry is that: "Magic is a corrupting influence in the world."     Not blood magic or evil mages but the basic magic itself.    That is contrary to what we are told of Andraste's teaching but does account for why even as far back as DAO we had Gregoire saying that magic was a curse.    I didn't agree with Anders blowing up the Chantry in Kirkwall and I agree that Fiona's timing in calling for independence when she did was awful but I do think that both are right in that it is the southern Chantry that is to blame for the vilification and fear of magic throughout the majority of Thedas, which on the whole is totally unjustified.   

 

Abominations occur occasionally but most of the instances of possession we have encountered are either mages who were inadequately trained, through their families wanting to keep them from the Circles, or mages who for one reason or another were under extreme emotional distress.    The Maker gave mages magic as a gift to aid their communities and you can't do that shut up in a tower.    It is not inevitable that mages will end up ruling the non mages.   It didn't happen with the Avaar.   Both the Rivaini and Dalish communities are happy to look to their mages for wisdom in leading them but there is no evidence that coercion or tyranny is involved.    It is all a matter of culture and whether there is a ruling elite who regard themselves as superior to others whether by reason of blood or Divine right, whether they have magic or not.

[Beerfish]

So the muggle answer is to bully the human nuclear warhead into submission, interesting tactic to prevent utter annihilation. Tell me, why should mages heed this hysteria? Sure in times past, muggles were able to coerce mage compliance through threats of tranquility, a lobotomization producing compliant docile slaves but now that the cat is out of the bag that the threat could be reversed, what's to motivate these mages to just unleash those magical horrors on the populace if they know their only future is a cell or abuse?

 

There are a hell of a lot more 'muggles' than any mages or templars and thus history as shown the muggles eventually make their wishes known and that is how history moves.

 

 

The pro-Circle like to spout the narrative that mages are ticking time bombs, or dragons unable to control their nature even though it's factually untrue.

 

Sorry this is 100% factually true. They are ticking time bombs, some can deal with demons, others can't.  The list of examples of good and bad intentioned mages being possessed is long.  You can literally have a nice long time mage and then one day poof in a moment of weakness you have an abomination.  Further more the case for the circles existence is neatly tied up in Connor's story.

 

At best they are intelligent people with a gun grafted on to them, with out training they could shoot themselves in the foot, with training they can direct it, not pull the trigger, or shoot you. If mages break into every mage prison, reverse every tranquility either causing chaos or strengthening their numbers, what's to stop another mage revolt from spiraling out of control?

 

There is an amazingly big misconception  that most or all mages hate the circles when the majority do not.  All the problems and rampant mage purging over the last game or so?  Because a few rebel mages decided it was their duty to speak for every mage.  A moron like anders coast more mage lives than any single naughty templar.

 

Mages that apparently are so powerful as you said, could destroy villages and armies, and all the magical horror blah blah is not a case for mages should submit, its a case that mages are able to fight, but can't be intimidated or strongarmed now that they know how to fight tranquility. What happens then? Either the mages, fed up with muggle abuse will bring them to heel out of necessity since a hysteric mob is just as dangerous as an unchecked dragon, or the muggles annul every mage ever born and we'll see how the populace react to that solution for long. Maybe the average people of Redcliff should think about this, or at least leaders hopefully smarter than them because like it or not, it could affect them.

 

So your solution to all of this is to make all of Thedas into RAWR Tevinter?  The 'muggles' if they have the will could exterminate the mages if they so desired and if they were pushed.

 

Maybe the Chantry should use that religion to promote peace and compromise with the mages instead of fear and hatred. Gisselle was able to promote an understanding between a mage in the Inquisition using healing magic on a hysteric muggle. It could end like that, or it could end in chaos and zealotry which muggles seem to think promotes order.

What is this compromise?  I've heard this argument a hundred times before.  Give the mages more freedom, work with them, compromise with them.  After that there are few details as to what kind of plan one could live with.

[Daerog]

Just side stepping the Circle thing for a moment.

There are only two known ways for a mundane to effectively fight a mage. The Seeker method and the Templar method. Okay, there is a third, but that is the Badass method and requires one being a PC or being part of a super group, like Crows or Inquisition. So, ignoring the superheroes or trained assassin slaves, The S and T methods are more effective for regular mundanes.

Unfortunately, the S method is secret. It also requires Tranquility and a spirit to touch you. I assume this is difficult since the Seekers were said to be a small group who only take in those who they think can pull this off.

So, the only way the general populace knows to combat magic well is the T method. It's the method the early Inquisition used before and after joining the Chantry, and even higher ups used the methods.

Templars know about the lyrium and the mind addling it does. They know about the addiction. They take this sacrifice on to be able to fight maleficarum and be able to stop a child from accidently blowing up their village. It is also very potent, as the Templars were "winning" against the mages in that stupid war and a small group of Templars can shut down Tevinter mage assassins.

This is known to some groups outside the Order. Once the Chantry stops buying lyrium (due to Tresspasser, they will stop), antimagic mercs will sprout up as many are willing to make the sacrifice, religious or not.

Just wanted to throw that out there. The Templars are not tricked or fooled, they are told upfront.

In response to Gervaise: Mage rule is not gauranteed. True. Southern nations could remain devout and not allow mages to rule, and any mage trying to pull a coup can be removed by a Templar. Still, like the Augar and Seers and Keepers, they have to be found, monitored, and properly trained. It's a big deal.

Seers and Augars and Keepers have to stay in their small communities because they do play leadership roles, so it's different than some roaming apostate. Avvar and dalish mages do exile themselves at times, but as long as they are away from the clan, the clan doesn't care (except that one Augar).

Small tribes and such are different from large nations with professional soldiers, the cultures are very different, too. Good points to bring up and remind people other systems exist, but let's also remember the different contexts and such. The Imperium does work, and it is the oldest nation.


Personally, I like the Circle and mages playing helpful roles, like advisors or spiritual leaders or merchants... which is how it was in some places already before Origins.

Edit: People blame the Chantry, but forget the Chantry originally protected mages and had mage allies. Over the generations, antimagic sentiment grew, why? Because mothers, sisters, and brothers come from the general populace. It is the general populace that impacts the Chantry and Chantry impacts the populace, it's not always a one way influence. The more theological inclined members have a more reasonable stance on magic, as they've probably read the whole Chant and histories.

[German Soldier]

I personally just wish the writers would commit to the mistake. I get that they wanted the mage/Templar conflict to be perfectly grey/gray, split down the center in terms of moral high ground from the start, but that's just not how it came across. I'm sorry that they regret that they made the mages come across as too sympathetic in DAO and halfway through DA2, but trying to artificially even the playing field by trying to make mages come across as bigger assholes in DA2 (so both sides were equally repulsive) and try to force another grey dilemma in DAI is, in my opinion, not the best way to go about it. It comes across as shallow and forced since moral grey choices are all the rage right now, and makes both choices seem underwhelming. If you accidentally made one seem more sympathetic, then stick to it and run with it; stop trying to backpedal.

I agree that sometime the plot and it's choices across the three games seem to be dramatically forced for the sake of grey drama however

I don't see why they should make one side more sympathetic than the other, that's the kind of thing that it help to channel a simplistic view on the audience.....I never saw mages as more sympathetic even in DAO,on the contrary of  all the  mages there  Gregoir,Wynne and some other member of the circle  were the only trustworthy

[Sports72Xtrm]

What is this compromise?  I've heard this argument a hundred times before.  Give the mages more freedom, work with them, compromise with them.  After that there are few details as to what kind of plan one could live with.

You say the majority of mages are content with the Circle, then why does in every ending does the College of Enchanters form to rebel against it? These are the Inquisition's mages, the ones who helped fight Corypheus, not just Fiona and her flock at Redcliffe. In fact, if you recruit Fiona's mages, the College becomes the majority where as Vivienne's loyalists become only formidable because of muggle connections. So what proof is there that the Circle is even popular among the mages?

 

I also like to remind you that magic has saved the world more times than any muggle ever did. Solas saved the world by creating the Veil. Magic helped seal corypheus, the mark that the Inquisitor wields is magic. Even Andraste herself was suspected of utilizing magic to revolt against the magisters. Andraste wouldn't be able to speak to "Maker" spirits or fight against magisters at a time when templars and seekers didn't exist otherwise. And while yes, muggles outnumber mages, mages can still perform miraculous or horrifying feats as people mentioned. For example, a virulent werewolf curse, or a rampaging demon army, or just political scheming and turning the southern nations against each other. There's more than one way for a few mages to bring down the many and there's a reason why during the time of Arlathan, mages were considered gods and muggles the slaves.

 

The compromise is simple, give the free mages their own kingdom, a safe place for mages to live freely and not have to hide their nature. To learn magic unfettered with their own kind. Let the southern governments of Thedas have their own Templars under their control to utilize as defense against rogue mages and let the Chantry act as arbiter between the mages and the governments of nations. Let embassies of the College be around to provide magical services and admission to the College's kingdom where they can bring students there to learn their magic. Those admitted into the College are registered and exiled like the muggles want. If there is a magical crime, the Chantry should conduct investigations and even applications of justice, protecting both mages and common people impartially like the Inquisition once did (before it became complacent and corrupt) and use rhetoric to promote coexistence and true justice instead of punishing all mages to pacify the hysteria of muggles. When mages helped save the world, like when the mages protected Divine Beatrix III, the Chantry should hail them as heroes and respect magic instead of re-visioning the tale to only promote Cassandra's reputation. Disputes will be settled by the Exalted Council and the the mages should be represented in the Council. The Chantry will serve true justice and return to adhering to service to others, mages are no longer oppressed nor patronized, have a reason to control themselves, and the chantry could no longer use the fear of mages or templars to blackmail governments into submission like they did in Kirkwall. With autonomy, we free each other. For too long the Circle system has institutionalized profiteering oppression and hate. Is that really too much to ask to change all that especially when it's in everyone's interests?

 

What are muggles so afraid of that a free mage society could produce? If mages are really so dangerous as they say, the pressure of the Circle's oppression would unleash it eventually. Giving them a home instead of patronizing them with a Circle jail would give their lot more of a motivation to keep it all under the lid. If thedas is ever to know peace, they should not let the worse of them define them.

[MisterJB]

Aaaaand...we're back on air, ladies and gentlemen the arguments have been used more than a pipe at a fraternity and the participants appear to be quite frankly dying on their keyboard such is the exhaustion but I believe that this could be it, maybe they will reach...nope, nope they are inventing "facts" and ignoring obvious cause-effect, I fear we still can't leave.

[TheKomandorShepard]

You say the majority of mages are content with the Circle, then why does in every ending does the College of Enchanters form to rebel against it? These are the Inquisition's mages, the ones who helped fight Corypheus, not just Fiona and her flock at Redcliffe. In fact, if you recruit Fiona's mages, the College becomes the majority where as Vivienne's loyalists become only formidable because of muggle connections. So what proof is there that the Circle is even popular among the mages?

 

I also like to remind you that magic has saved the world more times than any muggle ever did. Solas saved the world by creating the Veil. Magic helped seal corypheus, the mark that the Inquisitor wields is magic. Even Andraste herself was suspected of utilizing magic to revolt against the magisters. Andraste wouldn't be able to speak to "Maker" spirits or fight against magisters at a time when templars and seekers didn't exist otherwise. And while yes, muggles outnumber mages, mages can still perform miraculous or horrifying feats as people mentioned. For example, a virulent werewolf curse, or a rampaging demon army, or just political scheming and turning the southern nations against each other. There's more than one way for a few mages to bring down the many and there's a reason why during the time of Arlathan, mages were considered gods and muggles the slaves.

 

The compromise is simple, give the free mages their own kingdom, a safe place for mages to live freely and not have to hide their nature. To learn magic unfettered with their own kind. Let the southern governments of Thedas have their own Templars under their control to utilize as defense against rogue mages and let the Chantry act as arbiter between the mages and the governments of nations. Let embassies of the College be around to provide magical services and admission to the College's kingdom where they can bring students there to learn their magic. Those admitted into the College are registered and exiled like the muggles want. If there is a magical crime, the Chantry should conduct investigations and even applications of justice, protecting both mages and common people impartially like the Inquisition once did (before it became complacent and corrupt) and use rhetoric to promote coexistence and true justice instead of punishing all mages to pacify the hysteria of muggles. When mages helped save the world, like when the mages protected Divine Beatrix III, the Chantry should hail them as heroes and respect magic instead of re-visioning the tale to only promote Cassandra's reputation. Disputes will be settled by the Exalted Council and the the mages should be represented in the Council. The Chantry will serve true justice and return to adhering to service to others, mages are no longer oppressed nor patronized, have a reason to control themselves, and the chantry could no longer use the fear of mages or templars to blackmail governments into submission like they did in Kirkwall. With autonomy, we free each other. For too long the Circle system has institutionalized profiteering oppression and hate. Is that really too much to ask to change all that especially when it's in everyone's interests?

 

What are muggles so afraid of that a free mage society could produce? If mages are really so dangerous as they say, the pressure of the Circle's oppression would unleash it eventually. Giving them a home instead of patronizing them with a Circle jail would give their lot more of a motivation to keep it all under the lid. If thedas is ever to know peace, they should not let the worse of them define them.

 

In first place, circles aren't popularity contest only security measure that exist in order protect world from magic that multiple times threatened world's safety and even more society. Second, most people by nature would chose improving own power and status so while college is certainly more attractive for mages it compromise safety of the world for a comfort of the few, what is ridiculous.

 

Well, that is fallacy. Sure, mages did help to solve those problems but funny part is that mages also caused those problems.

 

Why Solas had to destroy his world effectively leading to destruction of his culture? Answer is simple, cause of that was bunch of power hungry and self-destructive unstoppable mages who according to Solas would destroy world. Funny thing, Solas now tries to destroy current world because of nostalgia, what is good indicator that world safety shouldn't depend on whims the mage.

 

Why Corypheus was a threat in first place? Corypheus was a threat because he was a mage and darkswan (he caused blights even before he become darkspawn).If he wasn't a mage he wouldn't be much of the threat, unless he had a mage as subordinate but point stays.

 

Andraste rebellion the same, Tevinter was magocracy.

 

Nice utopia you got there, but this isn't even remotely how things work. In first place allowing mages to have nation is idiotic idea (Tevinter) and is practically begging them to take over, separating themselves from the little control chantry would have over them and exist as independent power just like Tevinter did. Second, corruption among mages would be tremendous and crimes would be covered up by mages that would be free to be self-serving, so basically mages would do as they please, occasionally throwing a mage under the bus for appearance sake just like Uldred did, at least until they would completely cut off from chantry supervision. Third, all above would come at expense of the people and world's safety, mages would start to conduct highly dangerous experiments and participate in dangerous activities with little force to stop them, that is even not touching matter of abominations that would be free to bring destruction upon world. 

 

"What are muggles so afraid of that a free mage society could produce?"

 

Hmm, i don't know how about blights and other catastrophic events that mages caused? People have good reason to fear mages, they constantly demolish society with some horrific disasters.

[Sports72Xtrm]

People ask for a valid peaceful compromise, I gave one. it is the compromise that leads to peace and coexistence. It's what's pragmatic. If that does not satisfy, if stubbornness and hysteria is that only thing muggles know, mass murder and conquering is also a valid contingency.

[TheKomandorShepard]

People ask for a valid peaceful compromise, I gave one. it is the compromise that leads to peace and coexistence. It's what's pragmatic. If that does not satisfy, if stubbornness and hysteria is that only thing muggles know, mass murder and conquering is also a valid contingency.

If by valid compromise you mean creating an utopia that has no real chance of functioning in practice without leading to disaster, sure but it would be miles from peacful.Ideal vs reality = reality always wins, that is why communism sucked.

[Catilina]

If by valid compromise you mean creating an utopia that has no real chance of functioning in practice without leading to disaster, sure but it would be miles from peacful.Ideal vs reality = reality always wins, that is why communism sucked.

Communism is sucked, because the leaders tried to maintain equality (that does not exist between the people) with prisons. Utopia + prison  was the formula of the fall (and unsustainable economy).

[TheKomandorShepard]

Communism is sucked, because the leaders tried to maintain equality (that does not exist between the people) with prisons. Utopia + prison  was the formula of the fall (and unsustainable economy).

Communism sucked because it's premise failed in reality. In fact most of the systems look good in theory but when applied in real world it goes down hill from there either by that ideal fails to match reality, system requires rather nasty means to maintain itself or both. That is pretty much why sports solution is doomed to fail, it is just a pretty theory that doesn't take into consideration realistic factors.

[Catilina]

Communism sucked because it's premise failed in reality. In fact most of the systems look good in theory but when applied in real world it goes down hill from there either by that ideal fails to match reality, system requires rather nasty means to maintain itself or both. That is pretty much why sports solution is doomed to fail, it is just a pretty theory that doesn't take into consideration realistic factors.

Absolutely true. And it is also true that the ice is frozen water. But what to do with the Circle-system?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Absolutely true. And it is also true that the ice is frozen water. But what to do with the Circle-system?

 

On mine only thing that matters here is increase of security, after all comfort or lives of the few aren't worth risking safety of the world or society.Now there are couple of the ways that could be done and each has own pros and cons.For me it is steady elimination of the mages or Arlic tranquil solution, qunari method would be also viable solution if not that it wouldn't work optimally outside Qunari society. Of course, implementing such solution would require proper set of laws and support from the chantry that would have to change a message from "magic is a curse, but also a gift from the maker" to "magic is a curse from the maker for our sins" or something in that lines in order to vilify mages and by that increase efficiency of said soultions.

 

Of course, those are just basics as going into every important detail like finances necessary to apply solution, corruption, opposition ,necessary exceptions or overall effects of said solutions would take considerable amount of time and im little tired right now , so if you have questions you can ask. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

People arguing with tks need to note that he's the guy who said killing all babies and kids that show magic is a good solution

[TheKomandorShepard]

People arguing with tks need to note that he's the guy who said killing all babies and kids that show magic is a good solution

And? Trying to discredit someone on basis of emotions instead reason makes rather poor argument.

[Catilina]

To close in jail, to punish innocent people (children) for what they perhaps someday commit, simple wrong, not a solution. This is not utopia, this is fact. This is my opinion.

 

Teaching and registration the solution. The chanry's blood magic* can work.

 

* phylactery-system

[TheKomandorShepard]

To close in jail, to punish innocent people (children) for what they perhaps someday commit, simple wrong, not a solution. This is not utopia, this is fact. This is my opinion.

 

Teaching and registration the solution. The chanry's blood magic* can work.

 

* phylactery-system

 

This isn't punishment, this is prevention and in fact is solution, jeopardizing mankind survival or even stability and security of the society for sake of the few on basis "that feels wrong" is irrational.

 

Teaching and registration solve very little problems that mages cause, as those don't prevent mages from going wrong either by becoming an abomination or causing disaster/abusing their power.

[Andromelek]

This isn't punishment, this is prevention and in fact is solution, jeopardizing mankind survival or even stability and security of the society for sake of the few on basis "that feels wrong" is irrational.
 
Teaching and registration solve very little problems that mages cause, as those don't prevent mages from going wrong either by becoming an abomination or causing disaster/abusing their power.

Dude, if the parents show to be reluctant to give up their children for Circle, just imagine the mess that would issue if they knew is straight up death, you are not really solving anything, and non-mages can become abominations too.

[Catilina]

This isn't punishment, this is prevention and in fact is solution, jeopardizing mankind survival or even stability and security of the society for sake of the few on basis "that feels wrong" is irrational.

 

Teaching and registration solve very little problems that mages cause, as those don't prevent mages from going wrong either by becoming an abomination or causing disaster/abusing their power.

Nothing is perfect. But the inhumanity is not prevention.  (Let's talk about communists? Their methods was this kind of "prevention".)

But useless describe again and again, we already run around and around... This is my opinion, this was my opinion, and this will be later too.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Dude, if the parents show to be reluctant to give up their children for Circle, just imagine the mess that would issue if they knew is straight up death, you are not really solving anything, and non-mages can become abominations too.

 

Except, parents giving up their children and sending them to the circle rarely was an issue in the series, hell having a mage child was considering even shame among nobility and that is when parents didn't discard their children due to being mage.Pretty much nothing that can't be significantly reduced with harsh punishments for such individuals, indoctrination and rewards for snitching.

 

Non-mages can't become abomnations, in first place abomnation is a possessed mage.Non-mages while can be possessed demons don't gain power by such possession, plus such cases are marginal and outright cases that weren't caused by actions of the mage are non-existent in series  .

 

 

Nothing is perfect. But the inhumanity is not prevention.  (Let's talk about communists? Their methods was this kind of "prevention".)

But useless describe again and again, we already run around and around... This is my opinion, this was my opinion, and this will be later too.

Wrong, aside from that what is inhumane is subjective there are plenty solutions that work as prevention and could be considered inhumane.

[Catilina]

Except, parents giving up their children and sending them to the circle rarely was an issue in the series, hell having a mage child was considering even shame among nobility and that is when parents didn't discard their children due to being mage.Pretty much nothing that can't be significantly reduced with harsh punishments for such individuals, indoctrination and rewards for snitching.

 

Non-mages can't become abomnations, in first place abomnation is a possessed mage.Non-mages while can be possessed demons don't gain power by such possession, plus such cases are marginal and outright cases that weren't caused by actions of the mage are non-existent in series  .

 

 

Wrong, aside from that what is inhumane is subjective there are plenty solutions that work as prevention and could be considered inhumane.

Lady Harimann

 

***

 

I can live with that. Nothing is perfect, nor me and my opinion.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Lady Harimann

 

***

 

I can live with that. Nothing is perfect, nor me and my opinion.

 

She was a mage,it is easy to get a clue from her using staff and casting spells.

 

 

Yeah, good luck with living part when mage will blow up world.

[Catilina]

She was a mage,it is easy to get a clue from her using staff and casting spells.

In the whole familiy had no mage. Staff was, mage was not – blame the designer...

(She dared to speak to the demon, because there was no mage, and she believed, that she will resist.)

[Andromelek]

Except, parents giving up their children and sending them to the circle rarely was an issue in the series, hell having a mage child was considering even shame among nobility and that is when parents didn't discard their children due to being mage.Pretty much nothing that can't be significantly reduced with harsh punishments for such individuals, indoctrination and rewards for snitching.
 
Non-mages can't become abomnations, in first place abomnation is a possessed mage.Non-mages while can be possessed demons don't gain power by such possession, plus such cases are marginal and outright cases that weren't caused by actions of the mage are non-existent in series.

Rarely doesn't mean impossible, your system would fall as soon as someone in power decides to keep the child, there is also the possibility of a grown up whose magic shown too late, which would be a problem if your "mage hunters" already got used to kill children that do not put up a fight. Non-mages are vulnerable to demons and no mage is required for them to pass, is enough with bloodshed, unless you want to argue that trees, rams, and templar conscripts are actually mages.

So again, magic it's not the problem, we didn't hear of Titans or Dragons messing around, problem is the moronic behaviour displayed by some "sapient" beings, you want to solve that out? The only way is through depriving free will, does it work? Only if you are a Gravemind, it seems.