1158 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

However, they are also involved in the disaster, which caused the red Templar ...  The Templars equally exposed to temptation, and cause the same hazard, because they attack in packs, and have big weapons, and a crazy ancient magister in theirs side...

Templars are normal people against non-mages, in fact what created red Templars was a mage Corypheus and his plans.Corypheus was one that started to distribute red lyrium.Templars while equally exposed to temptation are nowhere near as dangerous as mages.

[Catilina]

Templars are normal people against non-mages, in fact what created red Templars was a mage Corypheus and his plans.Corypheus was one that started to distribute red lyrium.Templars while equally exposed to temptation are nowhere near as dangerous as mages.

Why did not they say no? I just said: the temptation affects everyone.

[Lord of War]

Why did not they say no? I just said: the temptation affects everyone.

 

This is true. Templars aren't fit to fight demons because they're easily tricked by them (Envy), apparently pretty easy to possess (every surviving Templar seen in Broken Circle besides Cullen, and a few in Kirkwall), and too cowardly to actually try (Gregoir cowering at the bottom of the tower, Meredith deciding to slaughter innocent, non-possessed mages instead of the demons in the city).

[Steelcan]

This is true. Templars aren't fit to fight demons because they're easily tricked by them (Envy), apparently pretty easy to possess (every surviving Templar seen in Broken Circle besides Cullen, and a few in Kirkwall), and too cowardly to actually try (Gregoir cowering at the bottom of the tower, Meredith deciding to slaughter innocent, non-possessed mages instead of the demons in the city).

Envy is too rare for the rank and file to be trained for it, the templars did manage to evacuate a sizable number of their guard and send for reinforcements (and its not as if the mages fared particularly better), and Meredith was insane.

 

But please continue to strawman

[Lord of War]

Pretty weak excuses, given the whole goddamn point of the Templars is to make sure things like that don't happen, but when they do, they can't even be depended on to stop it. Apparently all they're capable of is beating people who are already in cells, but I guess they deserve it for what they might do, yeah?

[Steelcan]

Pretty weak excuses, given the whole goddamn point of the Templars is to make sure things like that don't happen, but when they do, they can't even be depended on to stop it. Apparently all they're capable of is beating people who are already in cells, but I guess they deserve it for what they might do, yeah?

Sorry we don't see every instance of a templar killing an abomination in great detail to thoroughly examine how effective they are.

 

However, given that such an expectation is hilariously unrealistic, I'm just going to stick with the established lore

[TheKomandorShepard]

Why did not they say no? I just said: the temptation affects everyone.

They didn't refuse because they were pressured and forced by corrupted leadership, Envy demon and Lucius.

Eee, what you said is redundant considered that i agreed but pointed fact that there would be no red templars if not a mage that actions and plans caused spread of red lyrium.So once again, Templars aren't more dangerous than a normal person despite being susceptible to temptation as people.

 

 

This is true. Templars aren't fit to fight demons because they're easily tricked by them (Envy), apparently pretty easy to possess (every surviving Templar seen in Broken Circle besides Cullen, and a few in Kirkwall), and too cowardly to actually try (Gregoir cowering at the bottom of the tower, Meredith deciding to slaughter innocent, non-possessed mages instead of the demons in the city).

That is fallacy , if Templars aren't fit to fight demons on that basis no one is, because there is no single person that could tell that it was Envy Demon.Plus, if i recall those templars weren't possessed only mind-controlled, what only means not every templar can effectively resist or can resist forever.

 

If you consider common sense cowardice sure, what Greagoir did prevented abomnations from getting outisde and dying in suicidal charge that would lead to demons geting out would be against what of templar stand for, that is protecting world from mages. 

 

Meredith invoked RoA what is elimination of the circle because every mage can be either possessed or a blood mage, she had good basis to do that considering that circle mages constantly turn out to be either blood mages or abomnations.

[Catilina]

Sorry we don't see every instance of a templar killing an abomination in great detail to thoroughly examine how effective they are.

 

However, given that such an expectation is hilariously unrealistic, I'm just going to stick with the established lore

...or become big bad red abomination...

[Catilina]

They didn't refuse because they were pressured and forced by corrupted leadership, Envy demon and Lucius.

Eee, what you said is redundant considered that i agreed but pointed fact that there would be no red templars if not a mage that actions and plans caused spread of red lyrium.So once again, Templars aren't more dangerous than a normal person despite being susceptible to temptation as people.

No more dangerous? In packs, with superior weapons?

[TheKomandorShepard]

No more dangerous? In packs, with superior weapons?

Templars can't start blights , Templars can't randomly turn into abominations , templars can't mind control, templars can't summon demons and list goes on and on. Single templar is just guy in armor for a normal person and pose threat on individual level. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

So I'm wondering how tks genocide world would react if a powerful noble refused to let his Mage child be executed

[Lord of War]

Sorry we don't see every instance of a templar killing an abomination in great detail to thoroughly examine how effective they are.

 

However, given that such an expectation is hilariously unrealistic, I'm just going to stick with the established lore

 

It's not like those are the only instances of Templar failure we see, just the big ones. Let's take a closer look at what they do in Origins, for example:

 

-Fail to detect Jowan's blood magic and to stop his escape.

-Fail to detect a major blood mage conspiracy in Fereldan's Circle.

-Fail to find a colossal blood mage operation in the middle of Denerim.

-Have the Mages' Collective operating completely under their noses (when they aren't being bribed). The Collective also manages to police its own, and hires contractors to take down mages who have gone too far and suspected abominations. Huh.

-Are easily defeated by a small group of darkspawn while a mage isn't.

-Continue to ruthlessly track Anders after he is recruited by the Wardens, ultimately causing his merger with Justice.

 

It's not looking good.

[Catilina]

Templars can't start blights , Templars can't randomly turn into abominations , templars can't mind control, templars can't summon demons and list goes on and on. Single templar is just guy in armor for a normal person and pose threat on individual level. 

The mages do not turn "randomly" into abominations, they need to accept a demon's offer...

[Daerog]

"Most Circles are prisons"
- We have been shown three Circles. One moderate that had an abomination outbreak due to lax security. One was an extreme example of Templars overstepping and mages practicing blood magic, FE was corrupt for more power and KC corrupt by red lyrium. Third was dealing with a corrupt Lord Seeker interfering and a GE constantly wanting to rebel with a majority disagreeing until Wynne dies. That is all we know. All else is rumor and Trevelyan can say Ostwick was boring and not have a negative opinion.


Dealing with magic and demons.
- Dalish deal with mages by having to send all hunters against a Keeper that became an abomination (and there is the whole abandoning thing). Some dalish tribes do disappear. A Templar is capable of dealing with maleficarum and abominations to a greater degree than other mundanes. We see tribes, Avvar and dalish, kicking troublesome mages out; a nation can't just kick their mage problem to another nation. Against the rebel mages, the Templars win, and against demons and abominations in Kirkwall, the Templars were able to face the threat (even without PC and Co plot-powers) and rise above it. The Templar method is very effective and won't go away even if the Order disbands (Seeker method is secret and difficult to perform).

[TheKomandorShepard]

So I'm wondering how tks genocide world would react if a powerful noble refused to let his Mage child be executed

Considering that it would be a shame support for such noble quickly would melt and noble would be put down.Amell family pretty much was ruined despite being most powerful family in kirkwall because of that, pretty sure i already addressed that in this topic.

 

 

The mages do not turn "randomly" into abominations, they need to accept a demon's offer...

Mages can turn into an abomnation at any moment of their life, mage don't have to make a deal with demon in fact mage can not even know he is influenced by demon.

 

 

It's not like those are the only instances of Templar failure we see, just the big ones. Let's take a closer look at what they do in Origins, for example:

 

-Fail to detect Jowan's blood magic and to stop his escape.

-Fail to detect a major blood mage conspiracy in Fereldan's Circle.

-Fail to find a colossal blood mage operation in the middle of Denerim.

-Have the Mages' Collective operating completely under their noses (when they aren't being bribed). The Collective also manages to police its own, and hires contractors to take down mages who have gone too far and suspected abominations. Huh.

-Are easily defeated by a small group of darkspawn while a mage isn't.

-Continue to ruthlessly track Anders after he is recruited by the Wardens, ultimately causing his merger with Justice.

 

It's not looking good.

 

Sure, it is not looking good. What is funny those problems aren't due to having too much security measures but because of having to little and mages having too much freedom.

[Catilina]

Against the rebel mages, the Templars win, and against demons and abominations in Kirkwall, the Templars were able to face the threat (even without PC and Co plot-powers) and rise above it. The Templar method is very effective and won't go away even if the Order disbands (Seeker method is secret and difficult to perform).

Hawke did not matter anything ...

 

– The expedition led by Bartrand;

– Anders was in Kirkwall also without Hawke;

– Meredith was a power-hungry lunatic.

[Daerog]

Hawke did not matter anything ...
 
– The expedition led by Bartrand;
– Anders was in Kirkwall also without Hawke;
– Meredith was a power-hungry lunatic.

In the grand scheme, Hawke only mattered against the Qunari.

I was just pointing out, no matter who Hawke sides with (my canon Hawke joined mages), the Templars "won" that fight, even with abominations and demons popping up.

[Catilina]

In the grand scheme, Hawke only mattered against the Qunari.

I was just pointing out, no matter who Hawke sides with (my canon Hawke joined mages), the Templars "won" that fight, even with abominations and demons popping up.

"Won"... yes.

[Steelcan]

It's not like those are the only instances of Templar failure we see, just the big ones. Let's take a closer look at what they do in Origins, for example:

 

-Fail to detect Jowan's blood magic and to stop his escape.

-Fail to detect a major blood mage conspiracy in Fereldan's Circle.

-Fail to find a colossal blood mage operation in the middle of Denerim.

-Have the Mages' Collective operating completely under their noses (when they aren't being bribed). The Collective also manages to police its own, and hires contractors to take down mages who have gone too far and suspected abominations. Huh.

-Are easily defeated by a small group of darkspawn while a mage isn't.

-Continue to ruthlessly track Anders after he is recruited by the Wardens, ultimately causing his merger with Justice.

 

It's not looking good.

Well they did know Jowan was a blood mage, but because of Irving and the Mage Warden's meddling he got away.

Irving also failed to detect it, so not a great argument for mages policing themselves either.

I'm going to chalk up the Mages Collective and other gameplay focused mechanics (such as an easier way to get money and xp) as similar to gameplay/story segregation, also we know far too little about the Collective to really know how effective it is.

Yes mages are OP, thanks for that enlightenment, we can always ignore the utter dearth of information around the events, only that Anders survived, hell he might have helped kill them.

The templars are zealous in their pursuit of a repeatedly escaping mage who could have murdered his templar escort and is now moving around with impunity and trying to destroy his own phylactery?  I'll admit that templar did overstep her bound quite clearly, but its not as if Anders is above suspicion.

[Lord of War]

In the grand scheme, Hawke only mattered against the Qunari.

I was just pointing out, no matter who Hawke sides with (my canon Hawke joined mages), the Templars "won" that fight, even with abominations and demons popping up.

 

True, they "win," but only after a decade of ignoring every other problem in Kirkwall they were supposed to be handling, and probably only with their sheer numbers. Meredith's Templars were basically only capable of brutalizing prisoners and hunting down political dissidents. By Act 3, a desire demon was running a major gang in Kirkwall. 

 

The Templar Order is not only the corrupt military arm of a religion that will happily edit its own holy text for political convenience, it is utterly incompetent at the one legitimate job it has, stopping demons.

[Steelcan]

"Won"... yes.

no matter who you side with the mages of Kirkwall are forced to flee

[Steelcan]

If templar ineptitude against demons is so apparent, why is not brought up as a reason for mages to police themselves in universe?  No one in-universe contests that templars are suited to hunting down and fighting apostates and abominations, and are repeatedly referred to as one of the most professional and well trained armies on Thedas.

[Lord of War]

If templar ineptitude against demons is so apparent, why is not brought up as a reason for mages to police themselves in universe?  No one in-universe contests that templars are suited to hunting down and fighting apostates and abominations, and are repeatedly referred to as one of the most professional and well trained armies on Thedas.

 

I'm going to say Chantry propaganda. It's a good lie to sell people: "Only we can protect you! No one else! Certainly not those degenerate, Maker-cursed mages! We just need some tithes for lyrium, you see..."

 

Not at all hard to imagine that centuries of this kind of thinking lead to an overconfident and incompetent Order.

[TheKomandorShepard]

If templar ineptitude against demons is so apparent, why is not brought up as a reason for mages to police themselves in universe?  No one in-universe contests that templars are suited to hunting down and fighting apostates and abominations, and are repeatedly referred to as one of the most professional and well trained armies on Thedas.

 

To be honest, he has some legit point that Templars while best suited to do their job as institution were flawed.There were a lot of screws ups and inefficiencies due to system that was too lenient and lax too effectively deal with mages.System of recruitment and training of the templars was very flawed as well, many templars were too soft to deal with mages, Templar should be taught to dehumanize mages in order to deal with them efficiently.

 

 

I'm going to say Chantry propaganda. It's a good lie to sell people: "Only we can protect you! No one else! Certainly not those degenerate, Maker-cursed mages! We just need some tithes for lyrium, you see..."

 

Not at all hard to imagine that centuries of this kind of thinking lead to an overconfident and incompetent Order.

You are heavily biased in first place, if chantry hated mages so much there would be no reason for chantry to preach that magic is also a gift, or there would be no reason to give them 5 star hotels instead to killing them off or just throwing in containment cells without any rights whatsoever.

[Daerog]

Criticism of the Order is fine and dandy, criticism can help improve something if given sincerely. I was just trying to argue the casual dismissal of Templar abilities. Templar abilities are very valuable and effective. Thedas won't give up on consuming lyrium until an alternate can be found.

The only way for compromise is if enchantments are advanced to the point of mass production and any mundane can deal with a mage on equal footing.