1158 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord of War]

Criticism of the Order is fine and dandy, criticism can help improve something if given sincerely. I was just trying to argue the casual dismissal of Templar abilities. Templar abilities are very valuable and effective. Thedas won't give up on consuming lyrium until an alternate can be found.

The only way for compromise is if enchantments are advanced to the point of mass production and any mundane can deal with a mage on equal footing.

 

I won't deny that their abilities are useful, but I will argue that the Templars are very, very bad at using them.

[Catilina]

Criticism of the Order is fine and dandy, criticism can help improve something if given sincerely. I was just trying to argue the casual dismissal of Templar abilities. Templar abilities are very valuable and effective. Thedas won't give up on consuming lyrium until an alternate can be found.

The only way for compromise is if enchantments are advanced to the point of mass production and any mundane can deal with a mage on equal footing.

I never said that the Templars are unnecessary, but that the Circle-system is wrong and cruel. And it is not even very effective.

And: every (not criminal) people deserves to live in freedom.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I won't deny that their abilities are useful, but I will argue that the Templars are very, very bad at using them.

Give me instances where they were bad at using them?

 

In the end, majority of Templars screw ups and inefficiencies are caused by flawed circle system that compromised efficiency and safety in favor of comfort and rights for mages, or that Templar training fail to harden them and dehumanize mages in eyes of templars, i mean that that Thrask and like became Templars is ridiculous.

 

 

 

I never said that the Templars are unnecessary, but that the Circle-system is wrong and cruel. And it is not even very effective.

And: every (not criminal) people deserves to live in freedom.

 

What is morally wrong is subjective, circle system doesn't exist to punish mages for kicks only as security measure, so it's policies. Circles are most effective system to provide society a security when it comes to mages (with exception of Qunari), it is only system that we have seen that didn't lead to world-threat and can contain threat before it damages society.

[Steelcan]

I'm going to say Chantry propaganda. It's a good lie to sell people: "Only we can protect you! No one else! Certainly not those degenerate, Maker-cursed mages! We just need some tithes for lyrium, you see..."

 

Not at all hard to imagine that centuries of this kind of thinking lead to an overconfident and incompetent Order.

so all the lore of the game is just a big conspiracy against the poor maligned mages!

 

good to know

[fhs33721]

Sorry we don't see every instance of a templar killing an abomination in great detail to thoroughly examine how effective they are.

Do we actually see any instance of a templar killing an abomination? Because I honestly can't rememer a single one right now. They pretty much just always fail at their job for the protagonist to do it instead.

[Catilina]

Do we actually see any instance of a templar killing an abomination? Because I honestly can't rememer a single one right now. They pretty much just always fail at their job for the protagonist to do it instead.

Cullen helped Hawke and Inkqisitor to kill some abominations...

[fhs33721]

Cullen helped Hawke and Inkqisitor to kill some abominations...

True enough, now that you mention it. Still, their track record in general is downright embarassing. Though to be fair I blame some of that on NPC-Syndrome, which makes pretty much everyone useless in the presence of a protagonist.

[MisterJB]

I can partly agree with this. Mages need to train, they need protection, they don't need to be abused prisoners, etc. You still have this faulty assumption that the Templars and mages are equal groups that need to "understand" each other, though. They're not, and they don't. Templars are the fanatical volunteer army of a religious organization that can basically be compelled to do anything if some priest says it's okay. They believed they had "divine right" over the mages. They have to go, for what they've done, for what they represent, and for their promise of future tyranny.

You gotta love how even when someone is trying to bury the hatchet, someone else has to come along to dig it up and bury it in a skull or two.

[Iakus]

 

I never said that the Templars are unnecessary, but that the Circle-system is wrong and cruel. And it is not even very effective.

And: every (not criminal) people deserves to live in freedom.

 

I'm not so sure that the Circle system is wrong and cruel, but that it is used cruelly.

 

The Circles are supposed to be havens for mages, where they can practice magic without being chased by an angry mob.  And Templars are supposed to be there to protect mages from attacks as much as to protect the outside world from magical abuses.

 

And mages, once they have proven themselves not to be a danger to others, should be able to live apart from the Circles if they so choose, as Vivienne herself states.

 

But in the centuries since they were formed, the Circles went wrong.  The balance of power shifted.  Both ways.  In the south, the Templars were ascendant, and all the abuses we hear about happened.  And in the north, the Circles took over...everything.  And mages live a life of cutthroat politics, blood magic, slavery, and human sacrifice.

[Catilina]

I'm not so sure that the Circle system is wrong and cruel, but that it is used cruelly.

 

The Circles are supposed to be havens for mages, where they can practice magic without being chased by an angry mob.  And Templars are supposed to be there to protect mages from attacks as much as to protect the outside world from magical abuses.

 

And mages, once they have proven themselves not to be a danger to others, should be able to live apart from the Circles if they so choose, as Vivienne herself states.

 

But in the centuries since they were formed, the Circles went wrong.  The balance of power shifted.  Both ways.  In the south, the Templars were ascendant, and all the abuses we hear about happened.  And in the north, the Circles took over...everything.  And mages live a life of cutthroat politics, blood magic, slavery, and human sacrifice.

Ergo: the Circle-system is bad (in this form).

(Vivienne is a Templar, not a mage...)

What about dalish elves?

[TheKomandorShepard]

I'm not so sure that the Circle system is wrong and cruel, but that it is used cruelly.

 

The Circles are supposed to be havens for mages, where they can practice magic without being chased by an angry mob.  And Templars are supposed to be there to protect mages from attacks as much as to protect the outside world from magical abuses.

 

And mages, once they have proven themselves not to be a danger to others, should be able to live apart from the Circles if they so choose, as Vivienne herself states.

 

But in the centuries since they were formed, the Circles went wrong.  The balance of power shifted.  Both ways.  In the south, the Templars were ascendant, and all the abuses we hear about happened.  And in the north, the Circles took over...everything.  And mages live a life of cutthroat politics, blood magic, slavery, and human sacrifice.

 

There is no such thing as proven mage, every mage is dangerous and may go wrong at any moment of their lives for 1000 different reasons. Plus, sacrificing world for a comfort of the few is ridiculous base to build a security system, that is major reason why circles often fail to properly contain mages. 

[Lord of War]

You gotta love how even when someone is trying to bury the hatchet, someone else has to come along to dig it up and bury it in a skull or two.

 

Well, if anyone deserves a hatchet to the skull, it's the Templars.

[Iakus]

Ergo: the Circle-system is bad (in this form).

(Vivienne is a Templar, not a mage...)

What about dalish elves?

Maybe.  Maybe it needs reform.  Maybe it should be done away with entirely.  maybe it's as good as any other system out there.

Vivienne is a mage.  Just one who respects the Circles and sees a need for Templars

What about the Dalish?  Which ones?  Some clans are so brutal to prospective mages they make Kirkwall look kind.  And even they sometimes have Keepers go abomination

 

There is no such thing as proven mage, every mage is dangerous and may go wrong at any moment of their lives for 1000 different reasons. Plus, sacrificing world for a comfort of the few is ridiculous base to build a security system, that is major reason why circles often fail to properly contain mages. 

 

True there is always a nonzero possibility of a mage going abomination.  That must always be kept in mind.  But after years of training, passing a Harrowing, and being evaluated by their First Enchanter it's not unreasonable for mages to be allowed to live outside the Circle if they so chose.  Provided they check in periodically.

[Iakus]

Well, if anyone deserves a hatchet to the skull, it's the Templars.

Some Templars.

 

And some mages.

[Lord of War]

Some Templars.

 

And some mages.

 

Yes, well, maybe not all Templars. If I'd had my way in Inquisition, I would have put their officers on trial. Anyone who supported their rebellion would be executed, and the rest, including the grunts, would have been sent to either rehabilitation facilities (for those whose crimes weren't too egregious) or prisons. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

True there is always a nonzero possibility of a mage going abomination.  That must always be kept in mind.  But after years of training, passing a Harrowing, and being evaluated by their First Enchanter it's not unreasonable for mages to be allowed to live outside the Circle if they so chose.  Provided they check in periodically.

 

Passing years of training , Harrowing and being evaluated by First Enchanter means very little, people like Uldred or Orsino did all of it and in the end things went poorly.If you let people like Uldred and Orsino into society results would be disastrous, in the end every single mage mage can go wrong. Now think about consequences of it going wrong in the middle of the city. Mages aren't meant to live among normal people nor free, they need to controlled for good of the collective.

[Catilina]

Passing years of training , Harrowing and being evaluated by First Enchanter means very little, people like Uldred or Orsino did all of it and in the end things went poorly.If you let people like Uldred and Orsino into society results would be disastrous, in the end every single mage mage can go wrong. Now think about consequences of it going wrong in the middle of the city. Mages aren't meant to live among normal people nor free, they need to controlled for good of the collective.

Orsino was loyal to to the Circle until the last seconds. What he did, he never would have done if there is no Meredith.

[Lord of War]

Orsino was loyal to to the Circle until the last seconds. What he did, he never would have done if there is no Meredith.

 

If anything, Anders was right about him: he spent too long licking Meredith's bloodstained boots. He should have used that Circle money he totally had access to and hired the Crows to kill her, her most trusted subordinates, and Elthina. Kirkwall would have improved quickly.

[Beerfish]

Orsino was loyal to to the Circle until the last seconds. What he did, he never would have done if there is no Meredith.

Baloney, pure and simple.  He was consorting with mummy fraken killer well before that and he did not just happen to figure out how to turn into a harverstor in the spur of the moment.  He was a user of blood magic (notice how he sacrificed a bunch of the circle mages to become the harvester?) and Merediths suspicions we proven 100% to be correct about some elements of the circle even if by that time she was bonkers.  You put it on Meredith, I'll say that it may never have come to that if he had allowed the templars to search the tower as they asked repeatedly.

 

The way blood mages were running around kirkwall and area it would have been a fail of meredith to not take action, especially after a mage blew up the chantry and there was no evidence either way if this was a rogue mage or a conspiracy.

[Beerfish]

If anything, Anders was right about him: he spent too long licking Meredith's bloodstained boots. He should have used that Circle money he totally had access to and hired the Crows to kill her, her most trusted subordinates, and Elthina. Kirkwall would have improved quickly.

Yeah, would have taken the heat off of a blood mage who was doing some pretty evil things.  Also would have taken the heat off of a host of other corrupt and bad seed mages.

[Lord of War]

Baloney, pure and simple.  He was consorting with mummy fraken killer well before that and he did not just happen to figure out how to turn into a harverstor in the spur of the moment.  He was a user of blood magic (notice how he sacrificed a bunch of the circle mages to become the harvester?) and Merediths suspicions we proven 100% to be correct about some elements of the circle even if by that time she was bonkers.  You put it on Meredith, I'll say that it may never have come to that if he had allowed the templars to search the tower as they asked repeatedly.

 

The way blood mages were running around kirkwall and area it would have been a fail of meredith to not take action, especially after a mage blew up the chantry and there was no evidence either way if this was a rogue mage or a conspiracy.

 

I think there's an obvious difference in being familiar with the theory of blood magic and actively practicing it. And there's no evidence that Orsino knew the extent of Quentin's research or how it was being applied. They we're only sending letters, after all.

[Catilina]

Baloney, pure and simple.  He was consorting with mummy fraken killer well before that and he did not just happen to figure out how to turn into a harverstor in the spur of the moment.  He was a user of blood magic (notice how he sacrificed a bunch of the circle mages to become the harvester?) and Merediths suspicions we proven 100% to be correct about some elements of the circle even if by that time she was bonkers.  You put it on Meredith, I'll say that it may never have come to that if he had allowed the templars to search the tower as they asked repeatedly.

 

The way blood mages were running around kirkwall and area it would have been a fail of meredith to not take action, especially after a mage blew up the chantry and there was no evidence either way if this was a rogue mage or a conspiracy.

As long as Meredith sat on her ass, and had enjoyed her power on her small dustbin, (perhaps bloodmage) Hawke cleansed Kirkwall from the abominations, with the rebellious Anders ... The Circle and the Templars (led by Meredith) was really ****** useful ...

[TheKomandorShepard]

Orsino was loyal to to the Circle until the last seconds. What he did, he never would have done if there is no Meredith.

Right, that is why he was conspiring with psychotic blood mage serial killer as well studying forbidden arts.

[Catilina]

Right, that is why he was conspiring with psychotic blood mage serial killer as well studying forbidden arts.

Studiing is useful thing, and honorable.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Studiing is useful thing, and honorable.

Right, especially highly illegal and dangerous arts while helping psychotic seriall killer.