1158 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

But dangerous and had break the "holy" law...

 

Knives are also dangerous but aren't treated the same way as nuclear bombs are.Plus, said law rather than good of collective exist to benefit a few, unlike circle.

 

 

 

Assertion without backup. What are your reasons? What exactly was wrong?

If basically completely devoided of reality "freedom solves everything" ending isn't enough for you i don't think any rational argument will work, but let me try.

 

First of all, free mages would lead to disaster, series constantly kept showing that mages inevitability will go wrong due to nature of being mage and simply human nature and flaws that come with it.Once, Templars are gone corruption among mages would skyrocket due to lack retaliation and intimidation factor that templars delivered, as well because of mages being free to act recklessly and upon their malicious intentions.In consequence number of disasters and abuses would drastically increase, now that mages are free folks would become victims.Now that folks become frequent victims of mages abuse and disasters support for Leliana from society that already fears and hates mages would start quickly melting.Now Leliana would already had plenty enemies among nobility and clergy due to her unpopular reforms.So, basically Leliana ends with hostile nobility as not only her reforms are unpopular but also disastrous and strong dislike from folks that suffer due to being victims.What leads either to Leliana being put down by nobility or by folks that would riot, my bet on nobility.

 

So, yes it was unrealistic and inconsistent to the rest of series.

[VivainaDX]

I'm sorry, I've only read the first few pages here, there's too many for me to go through, but I have to ask, Isn't it suspicious that both sides seem to have crap leadership? I'm looking at the effect this feud is having across Thedas and thinking, the best way to weaken Thedas is to create a way to pit it's people against eachother. To me it isn't just a mage/Templar thing, that's just a distraction. Thrask had it right, the mages and Templars should've been acting together and keeping eachother in check. Blood mages in Tevinter/Psycho Templar/Seeker leaders and the Chantry at the center of it all. Even the Thedas Chantrys can't get along. The True Devine vs. The Devine...or can they? Both sides working against the middle, creating friction between the people. Both sides have oppressed individuals, just like both sides have power hungry nut jobs. It's a chess game to maintain power and control, so the people don't realize they're pawns in a friendly game.

[Catilina]

Knives are also dangerous but aren't treated the same way as nuclear bombs are.Plus, said law rather than good of collective exist to benefit a few, unlike circle.

The law is the law. Or we must distinguish between the law and the law? YES! And I think, the Circle is also a bad law.

[TheKomandorShepard]

The law is the law. Or we must distinguish between the law and the law? YES! And I think, the Circle is also a bad law.

That is just dumb and fallacy.Just because something is a law doesn't mean it is valid, it is only in case if there is a reason behind it.No, circle laws have reason behind it, and said reason exist to benefit society . 

[VivainaDX]

That is just dumb and fallacy.Just because something is a law doesn't mean it is valid, it is only in case if there is a reason behind it.No, circle laws have reason behind it, and said reason exist to benefit society . 

Funny how that's a Chantry law, though. It also seems funny that there seems to be more occurrences of blood mages in circles than there are with apostates living outside the circle. Is it that circles protect the public or is it that they protect the Chantry's authority on the subject?  

[ShadowLordXII]

And to bring attention back to a fundamental flaw of Chantry teachings, here's what World of Thedas says concerning one of its core teachings:

 

"Magic is a corrupting influence in the world."

 

Now at what point did the Chantry decide that magic is always bad/evil? Let's contrast with what Andraste purportedly said about magic according to her disciples:

 

"Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him; Foul and corrupt are they; Who have taken His gift; And turned it against His children. They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones. They shall find no rest in this world; Or beyond." -Transfigurations 1:2

 

Clearly, Andraste is saying that magic is a gift from the Maker and should be used for good. That using this magic for personal power or evil is a grave sin and therefore, Andraste is encouraging mages to use their magic responsibly. Never does the Bride of the Maker say that magic is evil, that was a teaching added on by the Chantry later.

 

And look how well that turned out.

 

It's plain that too many people underestimate just how much influence this one of four core beliefs in the Chantry has on the current mage-templar conflict. It's this same belief that is rooted in Circle and Templar policy and essentially dumped kerosene into a pool in the house's basement waiting for a match to light it.

 

Had the Chantry stuck closer to what Andraste actually said and not define magic as objectively evil when that's objectively not true, there would be less grounds for a war.

 

It's the equivalent to criminal labeling theory where assuming that a kid is a criminal is doomed to be a self-fulfilling prophecy as long as that prejudice sticks into place. Eventually, that bias permeates into the kid's subconscious to where he believes that criminality is his only destiny and low and behold, he becomes a gang banger.

 

A less biased and more objective form of thinking would make you acknowledge that the kid is at risk due to factors in his environment and background. But there's a chance for the kid not to become a criminal if he's instilled with a sense of responsibility and he is exposed him to experiences and training more likely to make him a healthy law-abiding citizen since he's made aware of the fact that becoming a criminal isn't his only path.

 

In that same light and with the inherent pressures that being a mage entail, how healthy is it for that mage and for society to tell him that his magic is inherently evil and therefore he's an inherent danger to everyone around him unless he can "control himself"? And if he doesn't, he'll get killed or magically lobotomized? No wonder some mages see blood magic and messing with demons as a viable solution to their problems.

 

Contrast with the Dalish and Alamarri. They are aware of the risks that magic can have and have their own precautions for worst case scenarios, but they don't damn their mages for it. The mages are raised to responsibly use their magic for the good of their people and respected by their people. Even in light of the 3-mage rule retcon, the Dalish approach is still better than the Chantry's. They view magic as part of the world and keepers are regarded as a window into the past, since it's believed (and later proven somewhat true) that all elves once held magic which they call a gift.

 

And while the Dalish continue to preserve what remains of their culture and heritage; the Chantry tore itself apart due to its own inherent core teaching which contradicts with the teaching of it's spiritual founder, Andraste. As I said in a previous post, it's obvious that the fundamental problem of the mage-templar conflict is that it's a false dichotomy that's focusing on the symptoms rather than the disease.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Funny how that's a Chantry law, though. It also seems funny that there seems to be more occurrences of blood mages in circles than there are with apostates living outside the circle. Is it that circles protect the public or is it that they protect the Chantry's authority on the subject?  

What is chantry law? Considering, that circles hold majority of mages and games focus on them, that is no suprise.Amount of apostates that were blood mages or walking disasters was pretty hefty.

 

 

 

And to bring attention back to a fundamental flaw of Chantry teachings, here's what World of Thedas says concerning one of its core teachings:

 

"Magic is a corrupting influence in the world."

 

Now at what point did the Chantry decide that magic is always bad/evil? Let's contrast with what Andraste purportedly said about magic according to her disciples:

 

"Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him; Foul and corrupt are they; Who have taken His gift; And turned it against His children. They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones. They shall find no rest in this world; Or beyond." -Transfigurations 1:2

 

Clearly, Andraste is saying that magic is a gift from the Maker and should be used for good. That using this magic for personal power or evil is a grave sin and therefore, Andraste is encouraging mages to use their magic responsibly. Never does the Bride of the Maker say that magic is evil, that was a teaching added on by the Chantry later.

 

And look how well that turned out.

 

It's plain that too many people underestimate just how much influence this one of four core beliefs in the Chantry has on the current mage-templar conflict. It's this same belief that is rooted in Circle and Templar policy and essentially dumped kerosene into a pool in the house's basement waiting for a match to light it.

 

Had the Chantry stuck closer to what Andraste actually said and not define magic as objectively evil when that's objectively not true, there would be less grounds for a war.

 

It's the equivalent to criminal labeling theory where assuming that a kid is a criminal is doomed to be a self-fulfilling prophecy as long as that prejudice sticks into place. Eventually, that bias permeates into the kid's subconscious to where he believes that criminality is his only destiny and low and behold, he becomes a gang banger.

 

A less biased and more objective form of thinking would make you acknowledge that the kid is at risk due to factors in his environment and background. But there's a chance for the kid not to become a criminal if he's instilled with a sense of responsibility and he is exposed him to experiences and training more likely to make him a healthy law-abiding citizen since he's made aware of the fact that becoming a criminal isn't his only path.

 

In that same light and with the inherent pressures that being a mage entail, how healthy is it for that mage and for society to tell him that his magic is inherently evil and therefore he's an inherent danger to everyone around him unless he can "control himself"? And if he doesn't, he'll get killed or magically lobotomized? No wonder some mages see blood magic and messing with demons as a viable solution to their problems.

 

Contrast with the Dalish and Alamarri. They are aware of the risks that magic can have and have their own precautions for worst case scenarios, but they don't damn their mages for it. The mages are raised to responsibly use their magic for the good of their people and respected by their people. Even in light of the 3-mage rule retcon, the Dalish approach is still better than the Chantry's. They view magic as part of the world and keepers are regarded as a window into the past, since it's believed (and later proven somewhat true) that all elves once held magic which they call a gift.

 

And while the Dalish continue to preserve what remains of their culture and heritage; the Chantry tore itself apart due to its own inherent core teaching which contradicts with the teaching of it's spiritual founder, Andraste. As I said in a previous post, it's obvious that the fundamental problem of the mage-templar conflict is that it's a false dichotomy that's focusing on the symptoms rather than the disease.

 

 

It is funny how quickly contradict yourself, or should i rather say that you post evidence that debunks your claim.

 

I mean how excatly chantry claims that magic is always evil if they call it a gift?

 

All chantry does is recognize fact it is incredibly dangerous.There is no self-fulfilling prophecy outside rare individual cases only mages succumbing to human vices or weaknesses, nor there is chantry priest point fingers and yelling "hate yourself vile creature" to mages.

 

I love, also how you use Dalish as example of utopian society where everything is fine, despite almost every dalish clan we saw lead to disaster/tragedy because of mages.

[VivainaDX]

I'd like to know since there are ancient amulets that protect spirits from being bound, why aren't there any that protect mages from possession?

[thesuperdarkone2]

I'd like to know since there are ancient amulets that protect spirits from being bound, why aren't there any that protect mages from possession?

Because then templar supporters start losing reasons to support the circle

[ShadowLordXII]

What is chantry law? Considering, that circles hold majority of mages and games focus on them, that is no suprise.Amount of apostates that were blood mages or walking disasters were pretty hefty.

 

 

 

It is funny how quickly contradict yourself, or should i rather say that you post evidence that debunks your claim.

 

I mean how excatly chantry claims that magic is always evil if they call it a gift?

 

All chantry does is recognize fact it is incredibly dangerous.There is no self-fulfilling prophecy outside rare individual cases only mages succumbing to human vices or weaknesses, nor there is chantry priest point fingers and yelling "hate yourself vile creature" to mages.

 

I love, also how you use Dalish as example of utopian society where everything is fine, despite almost every dalish clan we saw lead to disaster/tragedy because of mages.

Where's the contradiction? My quotes referring to the Chantry's inherent stance on magic and Andraste's words are from the World of Thedas and DA games respectively, feel free to double-check if you think I'm bs'ing.

 

Thanks for proving my point. Andraste's chant calls magic a gift and yet, one of four of the Chantry's core teachings says its inherently evil and acts more on the later than the former in practice and policy.

 

It believes that magic is an inherent corrupting influence in the world. That's much more absolutist and close-minded than merely acknowledging the inherent risks of magic. That's a "guilty before proven guilty" stance and again, look what happened because of said stance. It created inherent ever-mounting tension within the Circles and Templar orders that exploded into a civil war where thousands died.

 

Strawman, The Dalish aren't a utopia and I never said that they were one nor that they have no problems. I've merely pointed out that the Dalish have a healthier and more constructive view of magic than the Chantry and it shows both for the Dalish and the Chantry.

[VivainaDX]

Because then templar supporters start losing reasons to support the circle

And the Chantry would lose support. Better for the Chantry to keep items like that on the down-low, eh?

[Melbella]

I'd like to know since there are ancient amulets that protect spirits from being bound, why aren't there any that protect mages from possession?

 

Because then templar supporters start losing reasons to support the circle

 

My guess is the amulet disrupts the spell rather than doing anything to the spirit. A mage has to choose to let a demon in. Spirits have no such choice when it comes to binding spells. Do we really want to start requiring mages to wear amulets that take away their free will? The defunct Circle system was bad enough.

[VivainaDX]

What is chantry law? Considering, that circles hold majority of mages and games focus on them, that is no suprise.Amount of apostates that were blood mages or walking disasters was pretty hefty.

 

Well, considering the Templars answer to the Devine....yeah. Chantry law formed the circles...and I'm quite certain it was fear of Chantry persecution that created many issues for the apostates.

[VivainaDX]

My guess is the amulet disrupts the spell rather than doing anything to the spirit. A mage has to choose to let a demon in. Spirits have no such choice when it comes to binding spells. Do we really want to start requiring mages to wear amulets that take away their free will? The defunct Circle system was bad enough.

Why would an amulet like that have to cause a mage to loose their free will? If there are spells that attract spirits for binding, why aren't there spells that deflect them? And why couldn't they be cast on an amulet to repel spirits?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Where's the contradiction? My quotes referring to the Chantry's inherent stance on magic and Andraste's words are from the World of Thedas and DA games respectively, feel free to double-check if you think I'm bs'ing.

 

Thanks for proving my point. Andraste's chant calls magic a gift and yet, one of four of the Chantry's core teachings says its inherently evil and acts more on the later than the former in practice and policy.

 

It believes that magic is an inherent corrupting influence in the world. That's much more absolutist and close-minded than merely acknowledging the inherent risks of magic. That's a "guilty before proven guilty" stance and again, look what happened because of said stance. It created inherent ever-mounting tension within the Circles and Templar orders that exploded into a civil war where thousands died.

 

Strawman, The Dalish aren't a utopia and I never said that they were one nor that they have no problems. I've merely pointed out that the Dalish have a healthier and more constructive view of magic than the Chantry and it shows both for the Dalish and the Chantry.

 

i literally explained that to you in my last post. Contradiction is that you quoted something that chantry promotes, very word's are not only part of chantry bible but even used by chantry and you claimed that chantry preaches something else.Chantry stance clearly is "magic is a curse, but also a gift" but for sake convince and that second part of chantry message would debunk your claims, you ignored that chantry claims that magic is also gift.

 

That is pure fallacy, because chantry clearly claims that magic is both gift and curse so your ridiculous statement that chantry claims magic is always evil is nothing more than fuel to your bias. So pretty much only one who claims that chantry claims magic is evil is you, because chantry stance is it is gift and curse, plus that chantry policies are founded on that magic is inherently evil doesn't work considered that if that was chantry stance they certainly wouldn't give mages rights and allow them live in luxuries.

 

Except it doesn't, it claims that magic is corrupting influence, you added word inherent to fuel your bias.Saying that magic is corrupting , doesn't equatate that it always corrupts , same can be said about power.

 

Not strawman but a fact, you claim that Dalish have much healtier and constructive view of magic, yet every data we have debunk your statement. In fact i already pointed to that that almost every dalish clan ended with disaster/tragedy due to their approach to magic and that is despite they had to deal only with 2 mages.It seems you have tendency to ignore extremely important facts that would debunk your claims , in order to validate them.

 

 

Well, considering the Templars answer to the Devine....yeah. Chantry law formed the circles...and I'm quite certain it was fear of Chantry persecution that created many issues for the apostates.

 

 

And? I mean how it realated to what i said, outside playing cpt obvious? It is like saying that fear of punishment for commiting crimes pushed people to commiting crimes...

[German Soldier]

This mage issue endured for a thousands of years all solutions have proved to be ineffective.

The only solution is to operate on the veil,make it definite and wipe out all magic from Thedas or remove it

(then bring back the Evanuris tyrants and even more potential people like them in the future)

[Lord of War]

This mage issue endured for a thousands of years all solutions have proved to be ineffective.

The only solution is to operate on the veil,make it definite and wipe out all magic from Thedas or remove it(then bring back the Evanuris tyrants)

 

You know that would make everyone Tranquil, yeah? Letting Solas kill the world would be preferable.

[VivainaDX]

Wow! so fatalistic! How about we just give Dagna some samples of the fade, get an idea of what it is about the veil that keeps the fade and Thedas seperate and see what kind of nifty rune she can throw together that will keep a barrier between mages and spirits? It seems that the breaches were a new development so studies like that probably haven't been checked out yet.

[ShadowLordXII]

i literally explained that to you in my last post. Contradiction is that you quoted something that chantry promotes, very word's are not only part of chantry bible but even used by chantry and you claimed that chantry preaches something else.Chantry stance clearly is "magic is a curse, but also a gift" but for sake convince and that second part of chantry message would debunk your claims, you ignored that chantry claims that magic is also gift.

 

World of Thedas says you're wrong and that's what I quoted with the core belief. Hence, I was pointing out an apparent contradiction, so where's the contradiction with what I'm pointing out? Andraste is saying one thing and the Chantry believes and is doing something else which is causing problems (Mage-Templar War being the end result), how hard of a point is that to understand?

 

That is pure fallacy, because chantry clearly claims that magic is both gift and curse so your ridiculous statement that chantry claims magic is always evil is nothing more than fuel to your bias. So pretty much only one who claims that chantry claims magic is evil is you, because chantry stance is it is gift and curse, plus that chantry policies are founded on that magic is inherently evil doesn't work considered that if that was chantry stance they certainly wouldn't give mages right and allow them live in luxuries.

 

Corruption=1.dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery. 2. the process by which something, typically a word or expression, is changed from its original use or meaning to one that is regarded as erroneous or debased. Calling Magic a corrupting influence in a religious sense infers the second definition where something is debased and inherently dishonest simply for being born with magic. Therefore, it is not a leap to say that this one of four tenets regards magic as inherently evil as corruption is often a synonym for evil in religious thought and teaching.

 

And look at how mages are treated: They're regarded as ticking time bombs just for being mages; they're taking from their family and homes and thrown into luxurious dungeons for the rest of their lives; everything they do is monitored by the templars for any sign of trouble; the threat of tranquility is constantly looming overhead; your final test has you thrown at a demon to see if you sink or swim; and the Chantry uses blood magic (wait, I thought that was bad) to track your every move. Oh and apparent abuses of power by templars goes unpunished since the seekers suck at their jobs, so the templars seem to be doing more harm to their wards than good. This spells out that the Chantry follows the "Magic is inherently corrupting/evil" mantra than what Andraste had said "Magic should be used responsibly for good and not evil/personal power." Some templars lean closer to Andraste's vision like Gregior in Ferelden, but that doesn't change the fundamental bias, teaching and practice of the Chantry's stance on magic.

 

Except it doesn't, it claims that magic is corrupting influence, you added word inherent to fuel your bias. Saying that magic is corrupting , doesn't equatate that it always corrupts , same can be said about power.

 

 

Irrelevant, the point stands that Chantry teachings hold magic to be an inherent problem and again look at their actions. You'd think that the Chantry regards magic as more evil than the darkspawn even though its just a tool just like a sword, money or etc.

 

Not strawman but a fact, you claim that Dalish have much healtier and constructive view of magic, yet every data we have debunk your statement. In fact i already pointed to that that almost every dalish clan ended with disaster/tragedy due to their approach to magic and that is despite they had to deal only with 2 mages.It seems you have tendency to ignore extremely important facts that would debunk your claims , in order to validate them.

 

You said I called them a utopia, which is false and therefore, you created a strawman to debunk me (and failed). And yeah, the data backs me up because the Dalish have yet to have a continent spanning civil war because of issues regarding how they treat their mages. Also, most of the abominations we encounter in the games used to be Circle mages; DA2 revolves around an escalation of violence and strife between oppressive templars overstepping their bounds and crazy mages who resort to blood magic out of despair and insanity; and multiple Chantry characters like Leliana, Cassandra, Cullen and more all point out that the Circle System had problems and that change is necessary including Vivienne despite being a hardcore Chantry supporter.

 

The Dalish had...one keeper curse humans who raped his kids and they spread the curse to other humans and other dalish when he wouldn't lift the curse; We've got Yelanna who went on a killing spree after humans attacked her people and the darkspawn tricked her into attacking innocent humans; Marethari who held her personal attachment to Merrill above her people's safety and then got herself possessed due to a lack of trust in Merrill's abilities or autonomy after she'd left the clan. I fail to see how this set of data makes the Dalish method of handling magic worst than the Chantry's and even if I'm missing something, where's the part where Dalish teachings created inherent tensions that sprouted an all-out war where many muggles suffered and died?

 

Till you can show me that tidbit, you're on a sinking ship cause the Chantry method seems far messier in the games than the Dalish method.

 

 

Nah, I just see the disease beyond the symptoms.

[MisterJB]

 

And to bring attention back to a fundamental flaw of Chantry teachings, here's what World of Thedas says concerning one of its core teachings:

 

"Magic is a corrupting influence in the world."

 

Now at what point did the Chantry decide that magic is always bad/evil? Let's contrast with what Andraste purportedly said about magic according to her disciples:

 

"Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him; Foul and corrupt are they; Who have taken His gift; And turned it against His children. They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones. They shall find no rest in this world; Or beyond." -Transfigurations 1:2

 

Clearly, Andraste is saying that magic is a gift from the Maker and should be used for good. That using this magic for personal power or evil is a grave sin and therefore, Andraste is encouraging mages to use their magic responsibly. Never does the Bride of the Maker say that magic is evil, that was a teaching added on by the Chantry later.

 

It's plain that too many people underestimate just how much influence this one of four core beliefs in the Chantry has on the current mage-templar conflict. It's this same belief that is rooted in Circle and Templar policy and essentially dumped kerosene into a pool in the house's basement waiting for a match to light it.

 

Had the Chantry stuck closer to what Andraste actually said and not define magic as objectively evil when that's objectively not true, there would be less grounds for a war.

A good reasoning, in theory. But, as is said in DAI, it's easier to fight as war, as Andraste did, than to build a civilization that lasts for a thousand years, as the Chantry has.

 

It's one thing to claim that magic itself is not evil but it's a different thing entirely to prevent those with magic from harming others.

If the choice is between telling a child that his magic must be used for good and then trusting him to not fall to temptation or placing that child in a stone tower, in the middle of a lake, with Templars with swords making sure he doesn't leave and hurts me or those I love, I know what I would pick

 

And look how well that turned out.

 

The majority of the world's nations are not ruled by mages and Abominations don't routinely destroy villages.

Looks like a sucess to me.

 

 

Contrast with the Dalish and Alamarri. They are aware of the risks that magic can have and have their own precautions for worst case scenarios, but they don't damn their mages for it. The mages are raised to responsibly use their magic for the good of their people and respected by their people.

The Dalish are ruled by authoritarian mages.

And the Avvar did release Hakkon into the world

 

Furthermore, these societies are tribal, smaller, much less advanced than Orlais or Ferelden. What is true there may not be necessarely true everywhere else.

And finally, we saw very little of the Avvar. Sure, it didn't seem they were ruled by their Augurs but we did not see a situation where the Augur and the Chief butted heads.

 

And while the Dalish continue to preserve what remains of their culture and heritage; the Chantry tore itself apart due to its own inherent core teaching which contradicts with the teaching of it's spiritual founder, Andraste. As I said in a previous post, it's obvious that the fundamental problem of the mage-templar conflict is that it's a false dichotomy that's focusing on the symptoms rather than the disease.

The Chantry which is followed by every nation in Thedas has far more chances to survive the next age than the Dalish whose clans number between 50 and a 100.

 

 

[ShadowLordXII]

A good reasoning, in theory. But, as is said in DAI, it's easier to fight as war, as Andraste did, than to build a civilization that lasts for a thousand years, as the Chantry has.

 

It's one thing to claim that magic itself is not evil but it's a different thing entirely to prevent those with magic from harming others.

If the choice is between telling a child that his magic must be used for good and then trusting him to not fall to temptation or placing that child in a stone tower, in the middle of a lake, with Templars with swords making sure he doesn't leave and hurts me or those I love, I know what I would pick

 

So we just put an inaccurate and self-defeating label on magic for false simplicity? Instead of this False Dichotomy, how about teaching and training the boy to use his magic responsibly and instill in him a sense of responsibility and trust? Therefore, he's more likely to not abuse his power because he has a bond with society and is therefore, less likely to harm his society with his magic.

 

The majority of the world's nations are not ruled by mages and Abominations don't routinely destroy villages.

Looks like a sucess to me.

 

Actually, abominations are still a problem and as I pointed out to a previous poster, most of the Abominations that we fight used to be Circle mages. Considering that the Circle System actually caused more harm due to the fundamentally flawed teachings of the Chantry, the Circle System failed to both protect mages and protect the people from magic. The Circle System in general just increased the likelihood that a mage would snap and abuse their power out of stress or a "let me be evil" mindset.

 

Also, Mage-Templar war spread widespread damage to most of Thedas. That screams failure to me. Even top Chantry figures admit that the system failed and needed change.

 

The Dalish are ruled by authoritarian mages.

 

Authoritarian in what sense? Dalish Keepers appear to be more akin to tribal chieftains who rule through wisdom and knowledge rather than strict power and authority.

 

And the Avvar did release Hakkon into the world.

 

The Jaws of Hakkon cultists released Hakkon into the world, give credit where credit is due.

 

Furthermore, these societies are tribal, smaller, much less advanced than Orlais or Ferelden. What is true there may not be necessarely true everywhere else.

And finally, we saw very little of the Avvar. Sure, it didn't seem they were ruled by their Augurs but we did not see a situation where the Augur and the Chief butted heads.

 

Perhaps, however applying the same mindset can't be worst than repeating more of the same. The mindset of the dalish and avvars concerning magic are at least worth trying rather than staying on a sinking ship. We haven't seen much of the Avvars, but this still confirms than alternative to the failed Circle System and its inherent mindset is possible and should be considered.

 

The Chantry which is followed by every nation in Thedas has far more chances to survive the next age than the Dalish whose clans number between 50 and a 100.

 

Rivain has their own faith; Tevinter follows its own version of the Chant. Also, the Mage-Templar War left the Chantry neutered, powerless and was threatening to collapse along with Andrastian society if not for the Breach and the Inquisition. Even the odds of reaching peace or a compromise at the Conclave was slim at best and the Templar/Mage leaders sent emissaries in their places rather than attend since they believed the Conclave was a trap.

 

[Iakus]

You do realize you're corroborating what I am saying, right?



Elthina was behind the burning of Starkhaven's Circle; never mind Decimus; because she has Sebastian; never mind that she encouraged him to leave if he wanted to and discouraged him from seeking vengeance for his family's murder; because Starkhaven will need a bigger Templar garrison; never mind how Starkhaven has a Grand Cleric and will need fewer Templars if there are fewer mages.

I mean...do I even need to say anything else? This is not "reading between the lines", it's ridiculous.
Everything, in your mind, is some darstadly plot by the Chantry somehow. Do you know who you sound like right now?
Meredith when she was at her worst.

"Orsino had nothing to do with this plot? That only means he hid his tracks exceedingly well."

"Elthina encouraged Sebastian to follow his own path? That must have figured into her plan somehow."

If anything Elthina appears to be a complete pacifist. She NEVER advocates violence for any reason even when it could solve a problem more easily.

[Iakus]

So elthina doing nothing about death squads killing people in broad daylight is ok? Stuff like that is why I dislike her.

Isn't that the city guards'job?

[Iakus]

But he (and much people in the world) still prefer to live freely (and hiding!). Isn't it weird?
 
(Fenris also had break the law, when escaped fron Danarius, and Fenris are dangerous too. The best thing that Hawke can do to return him to his former master.)

Slavery is illegal in Kirkwall, and everywhere else outside Tevinter. And having lyrium brands isn't illegal anywhere So there is no legal reason to hand Fenris over to his master. What was the point?

[thesuperdarkone2]

Isn't that the city guards'job?

Did you forget how the Templars were the death squads and the Templars own the city in act 3?