1158 réponses à ce sujet

[straykat]

While I respect and envy you your belief in these people (my people as well, since mages are always my class of choice) I am not willing to risk the greater numbers of non mages in Thedas over chance. Mages need an institution that nurtures their talent, instills discipline and restraint, as well as provides a level of oversight.

In the future, I would like to see mages work hand in hand with Templars and Seekers both to regulate and control magic in Southern Thedas.

 

I don't mind an institution.. but to use the Prof X example earlier, I'd rather it be mages running it. And it wouldn't be permanent if I had any say so. And even then, I'd have a stopgap with wandering warriors who investigate and combat magic abuse issues. Whether it's the Inquisition or Seekers, I don't know. 

 

And I'm not even sure it's my headcanon. It's pretty close to what you can accomplish in DAI... I think.

 

edit: Uh, but back to my quote. It does take a bit of faith to try this at all.

[Sah291]

I don't think it can be argued well, when most players come from western democracies with a long liberal tradition. We champion the individual spirit. And we're not even in the category that communists are...where they "liberate", but are still highly collectivist. That makes many people recoil too.

Indeed... I think it is probably just reflecting different cultural values. Mages, so far in the game...have been portrayed with slightly more liberal leaning positions, while Templars are tied to the Chantry, and have been thus been portrayed with slightly more traditional religious or conservative values. Circles have been portayed as oppressive, so it's easier to identify with the mages and see their plight as a metaphor for various things.

With the exception of Tevinter mages, but there hasn't been a game taking place in Tevinter yet. I have a feeling if they had set a game in Tevinter where Circles were not like prisions, but exclusive elite universities, closed off to commoners, many players might have formed a different view of mages.

[Qun00]

There really isn't one, and that's the way it should be. The Templar argument is in no way equal to the mages' unless you happen to be a Chantry zealot. The Chantry and it's Order of thugs has duped Thedas since their founding, perpetuating crimes and evils that massively outweigh anything even Corypheus does (in Inquisition, at least).

Indeed, it probably can't be done. The truth of the situation with the Circles is clear and therefore the templar side would never seem truly positive.

That is why there is no point in presenting it as a choice for the players in the first place. It is very black and white.

[thesuperdarkone2]

The Circle as it is can has never been and will never be that institution. It is a corrupt, brutal failure that needs to be entirely replaced, just as the Templars need to be entirely dissolved.

It's funny how at least my ideal solution is through divine Leliana with peacekeeper inquisition. Mages run their own school without Templars and the inquisition remains to protect people from demons and blood mages.

[straykat]

The funny thing is, if Templars were as cool as my Demon Hunter in Diablo, I'd sign up for that instantly.

[Sah291]

I made the point earlier that showing Templars in a positive light wouldn't be that hard. Show an emergent mage in danger of being lynched by a muggle mob and a Templar comes to the rescue, and maybe they are both chased by a local noble that hunts mages for sport. This is not a new idea: the oppressed mutant youth being rescued by Professor Xavier's School For Gifted Youngsters.

Something like that was done in one of the novels, with Evangeline. Also there's Wynne's back story in Origins, and Cullen's positive character development. Not to mention Cassandra and Leliana. So it's not like they haven't portrayed sympathetic Templar/Chantry types.

This kind of scenario is still showing the mages in a sympathetic light, though, with the supporting Templars as allies or protectors, taking the mages side.

[straykat]

Something like that was done in one of the novels, with Evangeline. Also there's Wynne's back story in Origins, and Cullen's positive character development. Not to mention Cassandra and Leliana. So it's not like they haven't portrayed sympathetic Templar/Chantry types.

This kind of scenario is still showing the mages in a sympathetic light, though, with the supporting Templars as allies or protectors, taking the mages side.

 

They're all positive... but they're all either reformers or outright rebellious too.

 

 

The purest Templar type that could've been cool at first to me was.... Lambert of all people. But they screwed it up. I almost felt sympathetic, when they had the older story of him being friends with the Black Divine...until he turned to blood magic. But DAI made him worse than that.

[Hellion Rex]

The Circle as it is can has never been and will never be that institution. It is a corrupt, brutal failure that needs to be entirely replaced, just as the Templars need to be entirely dissolved.

The Circle insitution isn't the problem. It's when Templar overextend their authority that we have serious abuses.

As to replacing the Templars, they don't need replacing. We need people who can nullify magic to help oversee its usage. If replacing it is truly necessary, I'd posit one such as Cassandra, Divine or no, be allowed to oversee the implementation of its new incarnation.

[straykat]

The Circle insitution isn't the problem. It's when Templar overextend their authority that we have serious abuses.

As to replacing the Templars, they don't need replacing. We need people who can nullify magic to help oversee its usage. If replacing it is truly necessary, I'd posit one such as Cassandra, Divine or no, be allowed to oversee the implementation of its new incarnation.

 

Mages can nullify magic too.

 

Or does that take too much faith for you?

[Sah291]

They're all positive... but they're all either reformers or outright rebellious too.
 
 
The one that could've been cool at first to me was.... Lambert of all people. But they screwed it up. I almost felt sympathetic, when they had the older story of him being friends with the Black Divine...until he turned to blood magic.

Yeah I agree about Lambert's backstory. Which is what I mean about how different things might be viewed if it were taking place in Tevinter...a place where Templars didn't have all the power and weren't just being closed minded, and mages really were oppressing people. In Southern Thedas they just seemed paranoid, and overly reactionary, and often were. So it is hard for many to see their point of view about protecting people from dark magic.

[Lord of War]

The Circle insitution isn't the problem. It's when Templar overextend their authority that we have serious abuses.

As to replacing the Templars, they don't need replacing. We need people who can nullify magic to help oversee its usage. If replacing it is truly necessary, I'd posit one such as Cassandra, Divine or no, be allowed to oversee the implementation of its new incarnation.

 

The Templars are the indoctrinated army of an organization that effectively views mages as affronts to their Maker and perfect weapons for their wars. They are utterly unfit to have any sort of authority over the mages, or anyone, frankly.

[straykat]

The Templars are the indoctrinated army of an organization that effectively views mages as affronts to their Maker and perfect weapons for their wars. They are utterly unfit to have any sort of authority over the mages, or anyone, frankly.

 

And it's because the whole job attracts sadists... not Chantry believers. Not many at least. You can never really change people like that. You're better off getting rid of their opportunities.

 

For one, it wouldn't be an "affront" if they believed in the Maker. It's supposed to be a "gift" in their teachings. If they read.

[Hellion Rex]

Mages can nullify magic too.

Or does that take too much faith for you?

Not like Templars can. Nice try though

[straykat]

Not like Templars can. Nice try though

 

Being an ex-addict myself, you can assume what I think about this.

 

Kind of surprised we haven't talked about this yet actually. That's a whole other problem too.

[Hellion Rex]

Being an ex-addict myself, you can assume what I think about this.

Kind of surprised we haven't talked about this yet actually. That's a whole other problem too.

Saving it for when I get home to a laptop and not my phone lol.

[Dai Grepher]

I didn't see the problem. If anything I thought the case for mages was poorly represented in DA:I. There is zero reason for them to stick with Tevinter over the Inquisition. Many mages already made the choice to join the Inquisition.

DA2 did a better job, I think. Annulling the circle was unfair and an abuse. However, there was corruption in the circle. It was a tough choice, especially if Bethany is part of that circle.

As it turns out, after you make the choice to commit to the templars, you are able to save mages who surrender. You're also able to save Bethany. And Orsino does indeed prove himself to be a bloodmage, which we knew, but still.

Then in Inquisition Cassandra reveals that the Chantry considered Meredith was justified in annulling the circle.

And in DA:I, the mages have a choice. They can flee from Fiona and Alexius, or they can choose to stick with them and fight against the Inquisition. The templars aren't given the same choice. They are twisted by force. So I think the game was actually stacked against the mages.

I'm disappointed in that, as I agreed with my Hero King's and Queen Anora's decision to grant asylum to the mages, and I also believed that the mages should be defended by soldiers against any templars seeking to kill mages. But I also believed that the mages should be split up and placed in various locations all around Ferelden, and also rotated every few weeks to different locations. Also, they would use their skills to help develop whatever location they occupied in order to earn their keep. That way all banns would agree to accommodate them, and none of the mages could be militarized except by the crown if that became necessary.

[MisterJB]

I feel like I'm being a bit heavy handed here...

 

 

One thing I'd like to see is mobile policing... yet free mages. Whether it's wandering Seekers or other do-gooders. Or just the Inquisition itself. Not only does this avoid the jailer aspect, but anyone who commits to a job like that would likely be more sincere in their beliefs. They'd have the whole "knights errant" thing going on.

 

That'd be my idea of a positive Templar type.

Mage becomes Abomination in an isolated village. The closest "wandering Seeker" group is three days ride away.

How do you get word to them and have them arrive before the mage has destroyed the village and moved on?

[MisterJB]

The Templars are the indoctrinated army of an organization that effectively views mages as affronts to their Maker and perfect weapons for their wars. They are utterly unfit to have any sort of authority over the mages, or anyone, frankly.

The mages are walking hellgates who believe their abilities means they are superior and normal people should be enslaved.

 

Oh look, I can make generalizations too.

 

[Lord of War]

The mages are walking hellgates who believe their abilities means they are superior and normal people should be enslaved.

 

Oh look, I can make generalizations too.

 

It's easier (and more accurate) to generalize an organization founded with specific purposes and goals, who are trained and leashed in the same way than a group of people who are born the way they are, though.

[MisterJB]

It's easier (and more accurate) to generalize an organization founded with specific purposes and goals, who are trained and leashed in the same way than a group of people who are born the way they are, though.

It's extremely easy to make generalizations of anything and everything. That is why they are generalizations to begin it. They do tend to lack in accuracy, however. Do you honestly wish to be accurate. Shall we analyze Templars one by one and statements regarding them in order to determine their purpose and character.

 

And in this case "being born the way they are" is a walking gate to hell.

After all, a Templar may be taught in a certain way but, being an individual, will form his own opinion. Mages are, by consequence of their biology, walking portals for demons to enter the world.

 

 

[Lulupab]

I think all of you can agree that the "best" solution is something between the circles and freedom. We have blatant historical evidence of both of these failing numerous times.

 

The fact that most players choose mages is not only because the seem like the oppressed party, the other side is first of all a zealous army. This alone is a big factor. Not to mention they are addicts who are allowed to remain addicts. Mages are mostly civilian types with a lot of women and children among them, while vast majority of Templars are soldiers and war veterans. So when you abandon Redcliff and side with Templars you are abandoning women and children in opposed to abandoning soldiers who signed up for war type lifestyle. So in a sense siding with mages saves more innocents.

 

In the end I do agree that Mage vs Templar plot had a lot of flaws. A rivalry between mages themselves would have been a better plot. Hopefully the plot is actually going there with one side being Vivienne and mages of same mind opposing more freedom wanting mages, with Fiona. (If alive). Templars should be irrelevant in all matters regarding mages and magic except security. Even then following the protocol should be their duty, not creating the protocol.

[Lord of War]

I think all of you can agree that the "best" solution is something between the circles and freedom. We have blatant historical evidence of both of these failing numerous times.

 

The fact that most players choose mages is not only because the seem like the oppressed party, the other side is first of all a zealous army. This alone is a big factor. Not to mention they are addicts who are allowed to remain addicts. Mages are mostly civilian types with a lot of women and children among them, while vast majority of Templars are soldiers and war veterans. So when you abandon Redcliff and side with Templars you are abandoning women and children in opposed to abandoning soldiers who signed up for war type lifestyle. So in a sense siding with mages saves more innocents.

 

In the end I do agree that Mage vs Templar plot had a lot of flaws. A rivalry between mages themselves would have been a better plot. Hopefully the plot is actually going there with one side being Vivienne and mages of same mind opposing more freedom wanting mages, with Fiona. (If alive). Templars should be irrelevant in all matters regarding mages and magic except security. Even then following the protocol should be their duty, not creating the protocol.

 

You're right, of course, and I do agree that the Mages vs Templars plot is really tired at this point, and it not being a very hard choice is a big part of that. I'd only really change one thing here, and that is mages having security with Templar abilities rather than actual religiously-motivated Templars. 

 

It's extremely easy to make generalizations of anything and everything. That is why they are generalizations to begin it. They do tend to lack in accuracy, however. Do you honestly wish to be accurate. Shall we analyze Templars one by one and statements regarding them in order to determine their purpose and character.

 

And in this case "being born the way they are" is a walking gate to hell.

After all, a Templar may be taught in a certain way but, being an individual, will form his own opinion. Mages are, by consequence of their biology, walking portals for demons to enter the world.

 

Templars are trained and drugged to keep them loyal to the Order's ideology, and they can be kicked out of the Order by their higher-ups for deviating (see Samson). While demons can possess mages, this is usually caused by stress, which tends to be caused by fear of what the Chantry and Templars will do to them. There'd be fewer abominations if the Chantry was less draconian, the Templars didn't exist, and mages could train in a less stressful environment.

[Hellion Rex]

You're right, of course, and I do agree that the Mages vs Templars plot is really tired at this point, and it not being a very hard choice is a big part of that. I'd only really change one thing here, and that is mages having security with Templar abilities rather than actual religiously-motivated Templars. 

 

 

Templars are trained and drugged to keep them loyal to the Order's ideology, and they can be kicked out of the Order by their higher-ups for deviating (see Samson). While demons can possess mages, this is usually caused by stress, which tends to be caused by fear of what the Chantry and Templars will do to them. There'd be fewer abominations if the Chantry was less draconian, the Templars didn't exist, and mages could train in a less stressful environment.

As of now, mages do not have Templar abilities and as of now do not appear able to gain them in any way. They can nullify magic, but not like the Templars can. But even if they could, who would provide oversight for them?

 

As to Samson, you need a better example, as that was Meredith at the top of the food chain, and all bets go out the window with her due to the red lyrium affecting her.

[MisterJB]

Templars are trained and drugged

Since Lyrium does not alter the mind of Templars to make them obedient, then they can't be said to be drugged to follow any ideology.

 

 

the Order's ideology,

To protect the people of Thedas from the harmful effects of magic.

 

While demons can possess mages, this is usually caused by stress, which tends to be caused by fear of what the Chantry and Templars will do to them.

1-This avoids the main fact which is that Templars can strike or not, mages can never choose to not be a gateway for demons.

 

2-Chantry and Templars are not the sole source of stress or fear in the world. Hunger, debts, bandits, sickness, slavers, unrequited love, the sources of pain in Thedas are literally without end. If you argument is that mages need to leave carefree lives that the people of Thedas don't enjoy in order for them to not harm others, then it is a self defeating one.

 

 

There'd be fewer abominations if the Chantry was less draconian, the Templars didn't exist, and mages could train in a less stressful environment.

Despite the fact, as I said above, there are a million ways for a person to suffer from stress.

 

There is absolutely no reason to believe that fewer Templars would mean fewer Abominations.
And even if it did, it doesn't matter in the sligthest because of simple logic. Let's say with the Circle system, 4 out of 10 mages become Abominations and without it, 2 out of 10.

With the Circle system, those four Abominations are kept away from population centers and are surrounded by specially trained knigths who can respond to the threat within seconds. How many non-mage civillians died from Uldred's insurrection which involved innumerable demons and Abominations? Not one.

 

Without the Circle, those Abominations ocurr in the outside world. How many civillians died from Meredith's sister or Connor? Hundreds.

Therefore, even if the Circle system produced more Abominations, which has yet to be proven, it doesn't change the fact it is still, by far, the more effective system.

 

Furthermore, you are only taking into account the possibility of mages becoming Abominations without adressing the very real one of free mages coming to dominate society.

[Lord of War]

As of now, mages do not have Templar abilities and as of now do not appear able to gain them in any way. They can nullify magic, but not like the Templars can. But even if they could, who would provide oversight for them?

 

As to Samson, you need a better example, as that was Meredith at the top of the food chain, and all bets go out the window with her due to the red lyrium affecting her.

 Mages wouldn't. Guards working for them, not the Chantry, would. Oversight would come from the local College/'Circle's' leadership, probably a Council of Enchanters or something. And Samson was kicked out of the Templars long before the idol was a twinkle in Meredith's eye, for passing love notes.

 

 

Since Lyrium does not alter the mind of Templars to make them obedient, then they can't be said to be drugged to follow any ideology.

 

 

To protect the people of Thedas from the harmful effects of magic.

 

1-This avoids the main fact which is that Templars can strike or not, mages can never choose to not be a gateway for demons.

 

2-Chantry and Templars are not the sole source of stress or fear in the world. Hunger, debts, bandits, sickness, slavers, unrequited love, the sources of pain in Thedas are literally without end. If you argument is that mages need to leave carefree lives that the people of Thedas don't enjoy in order for them to not harm others, then it is a self defeating one.

 

 

Despite the fact, as I said above, there are a million ways for a person to suffer from stress.

 

There is absolutely no reason to believe that fewer Templars would mean fewer Abominations.
And even if it did, it doesn't matter in the sligthest because of simple logic. Let's say with the Circle system, 4 out of 10 mages become Abominations and without it, 2 out of 10.

With the Circle system, those four Abominations are kept away from population centers and are surrounded by specially trained knigths who can respond to the threat within seconds. How many non-mage civillians died from Uldred's insurrection which involved innumerable demons and Abominations? Not one.

 

Without the Circle, those Abominations ocurr in the outside world. How many civillians died from Meredith's sister or Connor? Hundreds.

Therefore, even if the Circle system produced more Abominations, which has yet to be proven, it doesn't change the fact it is still, by far, the more effective system.

 

Furthermore, you are only taking into account the possibility of mages becoming Abominations without adressing the very real one of free mages coming to dominate society.

 

Lyrium Addiction-Templars suffer extreme, adverse affects when they don't get regular lyrium doses. The Chantry has a monopoly on lyrium. Don't toe the line, suffer the consequences.

 

1-Mages will always have a connection to the Fade, it's true, but the solution to this problem doesn't have to be a compulsory life imprisonment by a religious organization perfectly willing to use them for their own ends. Proper training and respect for their abilities could work just as well (probably better) than having a Templar ready and willing to butcher you looming over you at all times.

 

2-Mages need training, and need to oversee each other. Templars with the absolute power of life and death serving a Chantry that sees magic as both a curse and an opportunity to profit are not the proper oversight. If a system of mage training existed that didn't mean losing your family, your autonomy, and possibly your mind (via Tranquility) existed, there would absolutely be fewer mages on the run, & more mages who could resist demonic temptation.

 

You brought up Connor: if my system was in place, he wouldn't have become an abomination. Isolde would have happily sent him to be trained, knowing she wasn't going lose her son forever. She wouldn't have had to rely on Jowan, who wouldn't have been catfished by the First Enchanter by texts on blood magic or be afraid of being forced into Tranquility in the first place.