1158 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Nobody is asking not to keep an eye on the spirit. Unlike Mundanes however, when spirits turn to demons you know when they are corrupted. They start disappearing like Cole, who got addicted to killing just to be "remembered", or turn grotesque as Cole says their visage mimics their emotions since the world doesn't make sense to them so they can't maintain their form. Of course, if a spirit is corrupted, you kill it. But their corruption is more obvious than that of a mundane. There's a difference between learning to be human and being a human. Despite Cole being more human, he's not human. He's a spirit.

ANd where does Justice fit in this.  He clearly became Vengeance.  A demon

[Iakus]

 
And you are talking an accidental abomination here, unlike Uldred who as a full trained mage summoned a pride demon into the waking world in attempt to revolt. It so didn't go his way but that's beside the point.  Accidental abominations have never been a serious problem when they happened inside the circles because they were close to thousand Templars AND Mages to stop them.
 

 

And that's the entire point of Circles.  Places removed from everyday life surrounded by Templars and other mages to minimize collateral damage.

 

 

You do realize when a harrowing fails the mage becomes an abomination right? Like guaranteed result. Its quite possible the vast majority of people who failed the harrowing could have had simple lives in the circles. Also the circle is more than capable to fight and kill the said abomination. Templars might die, but its their job and they signed up for it.

Maybe.  Or they might have gone abomination at a really inopportune time because they didn't have the mental discipline to resist the demons.

[Iakus]

I'll accept that, provided that you have a solution that doesn't involve death or Tranquility.

That would be ideal.  Heck Divine Justinia was actively searching fro such an alternative before the rebellions.

 

But atm, no such solution exists.  Tranquility was supposed to be an alternative to straight-up executions.  But even that has its own problems.

 

And I don't think going the Avvar route and having spirits murder weak apprentices in their sleep would go over well...

[Xilizhra]

That would be ideal.  Heck Divine Justinia was actively searching fro such an alternative before the rebellions.

 

But atm, no such solution exists.  Tranquility was supposed to be an alternative to straight-up executions.  But even that has its own problems.

 

And I don't think going the Avvar route and having spirits murder weak apprentices in their sleep would go over well...

Then there cannot be a cap on the number of Harrowings. It's unconscionable.

[Sports72Xtrm]

ANd where does Justice fit in this.  He clearly became Vengeance.  A demon

Debatable. It's true, spirits and demons are one in the same. Since it was possession, it's hard to tell if Justice became a demon since unlike spirits not in possession, outward appearance doesn't manifest and the only way to gauge if someone is a spirit or a demon is have another spirit like Cole who entered Thedas out of will judge them. Did Wynne's spirit of faith become a pride demon and that's why she was so gung-ho about trapping mages in the Circle? Justice/Anders tried all non-violent ways to give mages freedom & justice. The mage underground, reasoned debates, rallies, protests, but Merideth was corrupt and using violent tactics and tanquility. So society pushed Justice to become a demon, if he really did, or justice just followed his nature and fought what he was designed to do: fight a corrupt society.

 

Spirits in the world is as Solas put it, "like... a fast-flowing river. Yes, it can drown careless children, but it can also carry a merchant's goods or grind a miller's flour. That is what the world could be if the Veil were not present. For better or worse."

 

Solution is don't be corrupt then.

[Lord of War]

Then there cannot be a cap on the number of Harrowings. It's unconscionable.

 

Being thrown to demons again and again and again sounds pretty horrible too, but it's admittedly not as bad as being made Tranquil or executed.

[Iakus]

Debatable. It's true, spirits and demons are one in the same. Since it was possession, it's hard to tell if Justice became a demon since unlike spirits not in possession, outward appearance doesn't manifest and the only way to gauge if someone is a spirit or a demon is have another spirit like Cole who entered Thedas out of will judge them. Did Wynne's spirit of faith become a pride demon and that's why she was so gung-ho about trapping mages in the Circle? 

 

That is actually a question she struggles with in her conversations with the Warden.

 

 

Justice/Anders tried all non-violent ways to give mages freedom & justice. The mage underground, reasoned debates, rallies, protests, but Merideth was corrupt and using violent tactics and tanquility. So society pushed Justice to become a demon, if he really did, or justice just followed his nature and fought what he was designed to do: fight a corrupt society.

Anders outright states that his anger changed Justice "I turned my friend into a demon!"

[Iakus]

Being thrown to demons again and again and again sounds pretty horrible too, but it's admittedly not as bad as being made Tranquil or executed.

This is a good point.  Repeated harrowings can't be good for the mages

 

Not to mention sooner or later a demon could succeed and then the Templars would have to kill the mage anyway.

[Sports72Xtrm]

That is actually a question she struggles with in her conversations with the Warden.

For what it's worth, Cole didn't attack her or sense she wanted to inflict pain, and that's good enough for me I guess that's she's not an abomination. And there's that whole giving up her life to save Evangeline. Demons don't sacrifice personal glory to save people.

 

 

 

Anders outright states that his anger changed Justice "I turned my friend into a demon!"

And Anders is the expert on all things magic now, or only when what he says supports your narrative of him being a demon? A critical thinking skill is knowing which sources are credible and the context. It's true, rival side Justice may have been a demon, friendship he may be a spirit. A rival Anders is becoming an unwilling host, and spirits aren't meant to be bound to those as Flemeth puts it, spirits aren't forced upon on "the unwilling".

[Xilizhra]

This is a good point.  Repeated harrowings can't be good for the mages

 

Not to mention sooner or later a demon could succeed and then the Templars would have to kill the mage anyway.

Then find an alternative quicklike, I recommend. Either that or just let them live without having a station beyond apprentice.

[Lulupab]

ANd where does Justice fit in this.  He clearly became Vengeance.  A demon

 

I don't think its that black and white tbh. He constantly shifted between "justice" and "vengeance" based on Anders himself. He only acted "demonic" when Anders lost himself to anger.

[Lulupab]

Also DA2 makes little sense when it comes to a lot things, so its better to think Varric exaggerated many things when telling Hawke's story. There are clear evidence in DAO and DAI that abominations are very rare. Dangerous but rare.

[raging_monkey]

Then find an alternative quicklike, I recommend. Either that or just let them live without having a station beyond apprentice.

imprisonment is a valid solultion. Mages aren't jedi

[Hellion Rex]

I'll accept that, provided that you have a solution that doesn't involve death or Tranquility.

Unless the apprentice is studying blood magic or has shown reckless abuse of his powers or utter disregard for the safety or wellbeing of others, I don't think Tranquility is necessary to be applied to those apprentices.

[Hellion Rex]

Also DA2 makes little sense when it comes to a lot things, so its better to think Varric exaggerated many things when telling Hawke's story. There are clear evidence in DAO and DAI that abominations are very rare. Dangerous but rare.

Kirkwall was different though. Veil was thin, tensions were high between mages and Tenplars, plus we saw a lot of good magic flying around. I'd argue that the normal rarity of abominations wouldn't apply in a place like that.

[Xilizhra]

Unless the apprentice is studying blood magic or has shown reckless abuse of his powers or utter disregard for the safety or wellbeing of others, I don't think Tranquility is necessary to be applied to those apprentices.

No Tranquility. Ever. Imprisonment if it must be done, but Tranquility is off the table.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Also DA2 makes little sense when it comes to a lot things, so its better to think Varric exaggerated many things when telling Hawke's story. There are clear evidence in DAO and DAI that abominations are very rare. Dangerous but rare.

 

What, evidence whole series outside dai (where topic was practically ignored) prove that abomnations aren't by any mean rare. We encountered abominations in dao many times, in fact 2/5 main quests in dao was about dealing with abomnations.

 

 

Unless the apprentice is studying blood magic or has shown reckless abuse of his powers or utter disregard for the safety or wellbeing of others, I don't think Tranquility is necessary to be applied to those apprentices.

Tranquility (or death as alternative) is necessary also to deal with mages that can't resist demon or can't control their powers.

 

 

No Tranquility. Ever. Imprisonment if it must be done, but Tranquility is off the table.

Yeah, sorry to ruin your idealistic vision of utopia, but Tranquility and/or death are necessary to maintain order and minimize disasters in case of mages.

[raging_monkey]

No Tranquility. Ever. Imprisonment if it must be done, but Tranquility is off the table.

what capital punishment sometimes rehabilitation just doesn't work

[Hellion Rex]

No Tranquility. Ever. Imprisonment if it must be done, but Tranquility is off the table.

I disagree, but I would only use it in response to strong abuses of magic. Imprisonment alone will not always solve the issue. And Aeonar can probably only hold so many mages.

[Xilizhra]

I disagree, but I would only use it in response to strong abuses of magic. Imprisonment alone will not always solve the issue. And Aeonar can probably only hold so many mages.

This is something I will never concede, and I would be willing in-universe to kill anyone who tries to apply it. How many mages do you think will need to be so egregiously punished anyway?

 

A new facility needs to be found aside from Aeonar as well; the place is far too hellish. Maybe the old Circles can be used by the College.

[Catilina]

I disagree, but I would only use it in response to strong abuses of magic. Imprisonment alone will not always solve the issue. And Aeonar can probably only hold so many mages.

I now must agree. Tranquility or execution. But only the most serious cases, for example Livius Erimond.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Then execution it should be. Tranquility is cruel torture. It's the same thing as what the dwarves did to make their golems, unethical and cruel and a danger to the group if someone were to say start reversing all of them.

[raging_monkey]

This is something I will never concede, and I would be willing in-universe to kill anyone who tries to apply it. How many mages do you think will need to be so egregiously punished anyway?

A new facility needs to be found aside from Aeonar as well; the place is far too hellish. Maybe the old Circles can be used by the College.

to be fair you not any of is know aeonor it could be club med

[Iakus]

 

And Anders is the expert on all things magic now, or only when what he says supports your narrative of him being a demon? A critical thinking skill is knowing which sources are credible and the context. It's true, rival side Justice may have been a demon, friendship he may be a spirit. A rival Anders is becoming an unwilling host, and spirits aren't meant to be bound to those as Flemeth puts it, spirits aren't forced upon on "the unwilling".

Anders spent years fused with Justice.  To the point where they are essentially a single being.  I'd say that makes Anders the closest thing we have to an expert on that sort of thing.

 

And he says his anger changed Justice right at the start.

[Hellion Rex]

This is something I will never concede, and I would be willing in-universe to kill anyone who tries to apply it. How many mages do you think will need to be so egregiously punished anyway?

A new facility needs to be found aside from Aeonar as well; the place is far too hellish. Maybe the old Circles can be used by the College.

Well, I thought this was called compromise, and not "my way or the highway". Would you perhaps be amenable to a review by a jury of a mage's peers, higher ranking mages and Templars, to review the charges, before Tranquility is chosen?