1158 réponses à ce sujet

[Lulupab]

What, evidence whole series outside dai (where topic was practically ignored) prove that abomnations aren't by any mean rare. We encountered abominations in dao many times, in fact 2/5 main quests in dao was about dealing with abomnations.

 

There is a codex entry in DAO when you start the game as a mage, it states abominations are rare.

 

Also if I remember correctly right of annulment has been mostly use to silence mage revolts, not to take the circle back from abominations. There is already evidence of one annulment being a mage slaughter with excuse of blood magic and abominations while in fact the Seekers found no such evidence and charged the knight commander for genocide.

[Xilizhra]

Well, I thought this was called compromise, and not "my way or the highway". Would you perhaps be amenable to a review by a jury of a mage's peers, higher ranking mages and Templars, to review the charges, before Tranquility is chosen?

No, I would not. There are things I can compromise on. Tranquility isn't one of them. To be quite honest, I think the Inquisition was morally obligated to heal all of the Tranquil working for it, and I've been constantly annoyed by the inability to do so ever since.

[Iakus]

No Tranquility. Ever. Imprisonment if it must be done, but Tranquility is off the table.

 

Just out of curiosity.  But what if the Seeker ritual could be adapted for mages?  Assuming the period of emotional instability is temporary or treatable.  Would you back that use of the "Sundering"?

 

Keeping in mind that not all mages may pass, as not all Seeker candidates succeed.

 

Geez, makes me wonder how many of the Tranquil are actually failed Seeker candidates 

[Sports72Xtrm]

Anders spent years fused with Justice.  To the point where they are essentially a single being.  I'd say that makes Anders the closest thing we have to an expert on that sort of thing.

 

And he says his anger changed Justice right at the start.

I could be the closest thing to a heart surgeon, that doesn't make me a heart surgeon.

[Xilizhra]

Just out of curiosity.  But what if the Seeker ritual could be adapted for mages?  Assuming the period of emotional instability is temporary or treatable.  Would you back that use of the "Sundering"?

 

Keeping in mind that not all mages may pass, as not all Seeker candidates succeed.

 

Geez, makes me wonder how many of the Tranquil are actually failed Seeker candidates 

Isn't it potentially fatal? I would only allow it for those who wanted to become Seekers badly enough to die for it.

[Hellion Rex]

Just out of curiosity. But what if the Seeker ritual could be adapted for mages? Assuming the period of emotional instability is temporary or treatable. Would you back that use of the "Sundering"?

Keeping in mind that not all mages may pass, as not all Seeker candidates succeed.

Geez, makes me wonder how many of the Tranquil are actually failed Seeker candidates

Those are probably kept in the direct care of the chantry, not the ones in Circles. Or they work directly for the Seekers.

[Iakus]

Then execution it should be. Tranquility is cruel torture. It's the same thing as what the dwarves did to make their golems, unethical and cruel and a danger to the group if someone were to say start reversing all of them.

Legally Tranquility is only allowed if it's certain an apprentice mage would fail their Harrowing and cannot control his/her powers.  And the First Enchanter must agree with it.

 

Alternatively, a mage who has passed the Harrowing can request that they undergo the Ritual.

 

Yes, it has been horribly abused, but it is not supposed to be used as a form of punishment, but as a last defense against executing a mage who is in danger of falling to demons.

[Hellion Rex]

Isn't it potentially fatal? I would only allow it for those who wanted to become Seekers badly enough to die for it.

It's not fatal, though, I'm pretty sure. You either get the spirit to fix you or you remain Tranquil.

[Xilizhra]

Legally Tranquility is only allowed if it's certain an apprentice mage would fail their Harrowing and cannot control his/her powers.  And the First Enchanter must agree with it.

 

Alternatively, a mage who has passed the Harrowing can request that they undergo the Ritual.

 

Yes, it has been horribly abused, but it is not supposed to be used as a form of punishment, but as a last defense against executing a mage who is in danger of falling to demons.

Which it's useless for, as it's worse than death (or would be if it couldn't be fixed).

[Lulupab]

Its scientifically proven that Lobotomy can fix the twisted mind of serial killers and rest of psychopaths. But there is a reason we don't use it. 

 

In this case its very similar to tranquility. 

[Sports72Xtrm]

Legally Tranquility is only allowed if it's certain an apprentice mage would fail their Harrowing and cannot control his/her powers.  And the First Enchanter must agree with it.

 

Alternatively, a mage who has passed the Harrowing can request that they undergo the Ritual.

 

Yes, it has been horribly abused, but it is not supposed to be used as a form of punishment, but as a last defense against executing a mage who is in danger of falling to demons.

What it should be is irrelevant since what it is is an abuse against mages to retain their skills without having to treat him as a person. Anyone compliant with abuse needs to be checked.

 

The golems used to be only for volunteers, then it was for political enemies of the dwarven king. The danger of abuse cannot be ignored.

[Iakus]

Isn't it potentially fatal? I would only allow it for those who wanted to become Seekers badly enough to die for it.

Not that I know of.  The candidate is made Tranquil, then meditates until they draw the attention of a Spirit of Faith (not easy, given Tranquil do not register as living beings to spirits) which touches their mind, freeing them from Tranquility and rendering them immune to possession and blood magic.

 

Of course, a spirit of Faith isn't absolutely needed.  some other spirit could be drawn.  But there is always an element of risk when dealing with spirits.

[Xilizhra]

Not that I know of.  The candidate is made Tranquil, then meditates until they draw the attention of a Spirit of Faith (not easy, given Tranquil do not register as living beings to spirits) which touches their mind, freeing them from Tranquility and rendering them immune to possession and blood magic.

 

Of course, a spirit of Faith isn't absolutely needed.  some other spirit could be drawn.  But there is always an element of risk when dealing with spirits.

If you're using this on people who couldn't pass the Harrowing, why do you think they would succeed at this?

[Sports72Xtrm]

Tell me, why does the Harrowing have to be against a demon? Why not against the Spirit. Is a battle against a spirit of valor- which he actually demands a combat match- any different than a battle against any random demon lured in to fight you?

[Iakus]

If you're using this on people who couldn't pass the Harrowing, why do you think they would succeed at this?

 

I'm asking would you let them try.  And not just on weak mages.  Any who'd be willing to have a go at it.  If they succeed, they never have to worry about demonic possession again.  Ever. 

[Sports72Xtrm]

Mages aren't seekers though. The seekers have been trying to turn mages into seekers for centuries, they only found the right of tranquility and its reversal. If their method had the same effects on mages as it did muggles, they would have discovered it by now. The only thing you get is a possessed mage.

[Iakus]

Mages aren't seekers though. The seekers have been trying to turn mages into seekers for centuries, they only found the right of tranquility and its reversal. If their method had the same effects on mages as it did muggles, they would have discovered it by now. The only thing you get is a possessed mage.

Have they?  I don't recall seeing anything like that.  

[Hellion Rex]

Mages aren't seekers though. The seekers have been trying to turn mages into seekers for centuries, they only found the right of tranquility and its reversal. If their method had the same effects on mages as it did muggles, they would have discovered it by now. The only thing you get is a possessed mage.

They tried only a few times, near the beginning, when Ameridan was Inquisitor. After the first few failed badly, they stopped.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Have they?  I don't recall seeing anything like that.  

That's how they discovered the Right of Tranquility. The seekers wanted to make a mage seeker but found it only made them tranquil.

http://dragonage.wik..._of_Tranquility

 

We called it the Rite of Tranquility: a mind, branded with lyrium, brought to a state devoid of either emotion or sense of self. The rite was required to achieve the true peace that could draw a spirit of faith from the depths of the Fade. A difficult task, considering a Tranquil mind is all but invisible to these beings. The candidate must be pure. If the candidate proved worthy, the spirit would touch his mind... and he would be freed from Tranquility as well as made into a Seeker in truth. If he proved unworthy, Tranquility was permanent.

 

It was only later, when the first mage attempted to join our Order and failed, that we learned Tranquility rendered a mage unable to access his magic, as well as immune to demonic possession. Thus, when the Circle of Magi was born, we gave them the most holy rite we possessed. It was a sacrifice we made for the good of all, so dangerous mages could be spared execution and yet live productive and harmonious lives. What we did not give them was the secret of its reversal. That knowledge, and our ancient bond with the spirits of faith, shall forever be solely ours to keep.

—An excerpt from Cassandra's tome on the Seekers of Truth

[Sports72Xtrm]

They tried only a few times, near the beginning, when Ameridan was Inquisitor. After the first few failed badly, they stopped.

Ok so if the method they use to make seekers don't work, what else are they going to try? I can make coffee with coffee beans but you can't substitute it with ketchup and make coffee.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Is there any proof that a the failed Mage seekers failed because they were mages and not because they were just not faithful enough for the spirit?

We've seen mages can be cured of tranquility so it's more likely the Mages simply weren't faithful enough

[Hellion Rex]

Technically, Pharamond had the Seeker treatment, and Tranquility was forcibly broken. We never got to see what the long term results were, especially the immunity to mind control and possession.

However, it may be that it's Faith spirits specifically that grant such abilities. The Seekers have a working relationship with such spirits, according to one of the codex entry.

[Hellion Rex]

Is there any proof that a the failed Mage seekers failed because they were mages and not because they were just not faithful enough for the spirit?

We've seen mages can be cured of tranquility so it's more likely the Mages simply weren't faithful enough

Maybe? Wish we could have kept Pharamond alive longer to study him.

Either way, we need to invest in research on Tranquility now more than ever.

[Xilizhra]

I'm asking would you let them try.  And not just on weak mages.  Any who'd be willing to have a go at it.  If they succeed, they never have to worry about demonic possession again.  Ever. 

If it actually works... yes, provided there's a way to guaranteedly cure them afterward if the ritual fails.

[TheKomandorShepard]

There is a codex entry in DAO when you start the game as a mage, it states abominations are rare.

 

Also if I remember correctly right of annulment has been mostly use to silence mage revolts, not to take the circle back from abominations. There is already evidence of one annulment being a mage slaughter with excuse of blood magic and abominations while in fact the Seekers found no such evidence and charged the knight commander for genocide.

 

Codex entries are written by in-universe characters, and doesn't equatate to being true.It obviously isn't considering amount of abomnations we encounter.

 

Actualy false, 3/4 RoA were invoked in order to deal with blood mages and/or abomnations, while case you are talking about was never confirmed to be unnecessary nor reasons of it weren't revealed.I don't have problem with invoking RoA if mages revolt, they basically deny purpose of the cricles and endanger whole society, what makes it no better than abomnation outbreak.