1158 réponses à ce sujet

[Daerog]

Well, the only two samples of people who were made tranquil and then returned to normal, literally begged for death over being made tranquil again. So, that doesn't make it look very favorable.
Also controlling particularily strong emotions with pills does not even seem close to the level of being stripped of all human emotion, dreams and desires.

Well, to be fair, the desires and emotions are not completely stripped. A Tranquil will still seek out areas of comfort during very stressful or dangerous times, and they still seek the basic needs of living.

I would think keeping the unproven mage in the Tower or in heavily warded areas of the Tower would work as an alternative, just like other mage children. However, those in such stations can't do much for the Circle, and Tranquil do a lot for the Circle. Well, "did" would be the case now... now they will be rare since a great number of them were turned into artifact locators by the Venatori... stupid Grand Enchanter...

Well, we'll see what the College recommends for weak minded mages. They can't just kick them out like the Dalish or Avvar. Killing or imprisoning are possibilities... maybe move them to a rural area, have possession take place, then slay the abomination and make it seem like they can police themselves for good PR.

[Steelcan]

I don't actually think that we should bother with this "how many Harrowings is too many".  Instead of being the mandatory conclusion of a mage's training, it should only be undertaken by those who wish to live away from the Circle to prove that they can indeed be trusted to safeguard themselves against demons.  (obvious it won't be a perfect solution, but I'm willing to give the mages some benefit of the doubt).  Mages who choose not to take it would be restricted to the Circle/other areas with Templar supervision.

[raging_monkey]

Oh my god it's the ultimate compromise yet pro mages will year it apart and ask for more

[Daerog]

No, in-universe "pro-mages" challenged the Templars, sparked a war, lost the war, and got their College. The asking for more happened and more was received thanks to the charity of the Divine and Chantry.

[Hellion Rex]

I don't actually think that we should bother with this "how many Harrowings is too many".  Instead of being the mandatory conclusion of a mage's training, it should only be undertaken by those who wish to live away from the Circle to prove that they can indeed be trusted to safeguard themselves against demons.  (obvious it won't be a perfect solution, but I'm willing to give the mages some benefit of the doubt).  Mages who choose not to take it would be restricted to the Circle/other areas with Templar supervision.

I like this^

[raging_monkey]

No, in-universe "pro-mages" challenged the Templars, sparked a war, lost the war, and got their College. The asking for more happened and more was received thanks to the charity of the Divine and Chantry.

it was a shot at fans honestly... And debateable on who lost

[Daerog]

it was a shot at fans honestly... And debateable on who lost

I understand.

As for in game, one can debate, but Fiona threw in the towel and gave up the cause while the Templars were just regrouping.

[raging_monkey]

I understand.

As for in game, one can debate, but Fiona threw in the towel and gave up the cause while the Templars were just regrouping.

also could be construed loosely as bargining for reinforcements or time magic distortion.

Tbh I don't care it's over both sides won pending on pc magic had this been a book I'd care but too many varibles

[Lulupab]

I don't actually think that we should bother with this "how many Harrowings is too many".  Instead of being the mandatory conclusion of a mage's training, it should only be undertaken by those who wish to live away from the Circle to prove that they can indeed be trusted to safeguard themselves against demons.  (obvious it won't be a perfect solution, but I'm willing to give the mages some benefit of the doubt).  Mages who choose not to take it would be restricted to the Circle/other areas with Templar supervision.

 

Basically what I was trying to say, but I don't think some people here are willing to give this benefit of the doubt.

 

I think the harrowing stops 99% of accidental possessions, but it doesn't stop a mage's malice such as Uldred. 

[Lord of War]

Oh my god it's the ultimate compromise yet pro mages will year it apart and ask for more

 

Of course. I still see Templars as part of the system, and that's entirely unacceptable.

 

 

No, in-universe "pro-mages" challenged the Templars, sparked a war, lost the war, and got their College. The asking for more happened and more was received thanks to the charity of the Divine and Chantry.

 

"Challenged the Templars"? It wasn't centuries of oppression and atrocity by the Chantry and Templars that sparked the inevitable conflict here? The horrific crimes of mad dogs like Meredith and Lambert pushing them over the edge?

 

 

As for in game, one can debate, but Fiona threw in the towel and gave up the cause while the Templars were just regrouping.

 

I really don't understand why people give Fiona such much ****. You guys know that allying with Tevinter really wasn't her choice, right? That Alexius used time magic to stack the deck in his favor as many times as he needed to produce the circumstances he needed, yeah? 

[Lulupab]

I'm actually horrified when I think about what Alexius could have done with tools he had in his command. I mean if you side with Templars you have a dummy Fiona who doesn't speak a word and just casts spells at you. Denam, who is basically a read Lyrium monster shows more emotion and reaction than her. The fact that there is no information about what happened to her is the scary part. Because it makes you ask the question "What could have happened to her".

[TheKomandorShepard]

Of course. I still see Templars as part of the system, and that's entirely unacceptable.

 

"Challenged the Templars"? It wasn't centuries of oppression and atrocity by the Chantry and Templars that sparked the inevitable conflict here? The horrific crimes of mad dogs like Meredith and Lambert pushing them over the edge?

 

I really don't understand why people give Fiona such much ****. You guys know that allying with Tevinter really wasn't her choice, right? That Alexius used time magic to stack the deck in his favor as many times as he needed to produce the circumstances he needed, yeah? 

 

Sorry, but majority of Thedas and anyone with common sense disagree with you, people don't want to sacrifice safety of their society and world for commfort of the few.

 

Lambert didn't push anyone over the end, it were mages who acted like spoiled children and thought they allowed to do whatever they want, they thought they can protect suspected murderer from hand of the law and vote to spearate from circles even despite fact conclave was about something else without consequences.   

 

Yes, because mages shouldn't be hold responsible for their actions because they are always victims. I mean mage lover is sick, uses blood magic turns into abomnations and kills entire village but it isn't his fault because what mage could do (how about not using blood magic)! Fiona had every choice in that matter, she picked easiest and most convenient choice for her at expense of others.

[Lord of War]

.   

Yes, because mages shouldn't be hold responsible for their actions because they are always victims. I mean mage lover is sick, uses blood magic turns into abomnations and kills entire village but it isn't his fault because what mage could do (how about not using blood magic)! Fiona had every choice in that matter, she picked easiest and most convenient choice for her at expense of others.

 

Not accurate. Fiona's choice was the Inquisition, that's why she approaches you in Val Royuex (while Templars get a kick out of beating up and insulting old ladies, and abandoning their supposed charges). Alexius used time magic to change this. He changed the conditions in Redcliffe, infiltrated the town, made things look much worse than they really were. And if it didn't work the first time, he literally had unlimited chances to get it right: Fiona was effectively brainwashed. Given the same treatment, even you would have sworn fealty to Tevinter.

[sniper_arrow]

I'm actually horrified when I think about what Alexius could have done with tools he had in his command. I mean if you side with Templars you have a dummy Fiona who doesn't speak a word and just casts spells at you. Denam, who is basically a read Lyrium monster shows more emotion and reaction than her. The fact that there is no information about what happened to her is the scary part. Because it makes you ask the question "What could have happened to her".

 

I heard she was brainwashed, but I'm not convinced unless someone presents concrete proof.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Not accurate. Fiona's choice was the Inquisition, that's why she approaches you in Val Royuex (while Templars get a kick out of beating up and insulting old ladies, and abandoning their supposed charges). Alexius used time magic to change this. He changed the conditions in Redcliffe, infiltrated the town, made things look much worse than they really were. And if it didn't work the first time, he literally had unlimited chances to get it right: Fiona was effectively brainwashed. Given the same treatment, even you would have sworn fealty to Tevinter.

Except it doesn't change accuracy of what i have said at all. Fiona was the person who out of convenience made horrible decision at expense of others, it was her choice nor she was brainwashed, her thought process wasn't affected at all or at lest there is no evidence it was, she was free to refuse Alexius offer infinite number of times.  

[Lord of War]

Except it doesn't change accuracy of what i have said at all. Fiona was the person who out of convenience made horrible decision at expense of others, it was her choice nor she was brainwashed, her thought process wasn't affected at all or at lest there is no evidence it was, she was free to refuse Alexius offer infinite number of times.  

 

Are you serious? Refuse an infinite number of times, with circumstances changing to play into Alexius's hands every time? Quite the standard, especially for a genocide advocate.

[Lulupab]

I heard she was brainwashed, but I'm not convinced unless someone presents concrete proof.

 

There isn't. And i think that was the intention of the writers, to leave you wondering what could have happened to make Fiona go from approaching Inquisition directly and sounding quite logical to siding with Tevinter and sounding like a witless idiot. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Are you serious? Refuse an infinite number of times, with circumstances changing to play into Alexius's hands every time? Quite the standard, especially for a genocide advocate.

Of course, Fiona is special snowflake and can't say no. Sorry, but Alexius is not a god and for certain didn't change circumstances to made deal with him sensible offer.Fiona deal wasn't necessary, it was just convenient for her and made out of her foolishness.So quit bragging how poor Fiona had no choice in matter.

[Lord of War]

Of course, Fiona is special snowflake and can't say no. Sorry, but Alexius is not a god and for certain didn't change circumstances to made deal with him sensible offer.Fiona deal wasn't necessary, it was just convenient for her and made out of her foolishness.So quit bragging how poor Fiona had no choice in matter.

 

Bragging? No, I'm pointing out that the offer was accepted under a pretty extreme amount of duress. And of course he changed the circumstances, him being there at all is a change caused by time travel.

[Hellion Rex]

There isn't. And i think that was the intention of the writers, to leave you wondering what could have happened to make Fiona go from approaching Inquisition directly and sounding quite logical to siding with Tevinter and sounding like a witless idiot.

She caught a case of the stupid? Lol.
Or maybe she was a witless idiot all along.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Bragging? No, I'm pointing out that the offer was accepted under a pretty extreme amount of duress. And of course he changed the circumstances, him being there at all is a change caused by time travel.

Of course , it was duress poor Fiona had no say here at all she was completely helpless when it comes to saying word "No". Oh, no Alexius was there and his presence complety makes saying "No" not being valid option, except once again it doesn't, him being there wouldn't make a deal sensible offer.

[Lord of War]

Of course , it was duress poor Fiona had no say here at all she was completely helpless when it comes to saying word "No". Oh, no Alexius was there it is complety makes saying "No" not being valid option, except once again it doesn't, him being there wouldn't make a deal sensible offer.

 

I don't think you get it. She did say no, she looked for other options, but when you can travel back in time and change things as many times as you need to, it doesn't matter. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

I don't think you get it. She did say no, she looked for other options, but when you can travel back in time and change things as many times as you need to, it doesn't matter. 

Now you are making stuff up, there is no piece of evidence that she ever said no and there was nothing that would prevent her from saying "no" under given circumstances.Stop acting as Alexius is omnipotent and can bend universe to "force" Fiona into making a deal with him, Alexius once again didn't do anything that would make saying no not valid option. Fiona made that deal out of convenience and out of her stupidity.

[Lord of War]

Being able to control time makes him close enough to omnipotent, honestly. And that's pretty much what he did: he used time magic to bend the universe into a state that forced Fiona to accept his deal.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Being able to control time makes him close enough to omnipotent, honestly. And that's pretty much what he did: he used time magic to bend the universe into a state that forced Fiona to accept his deal.

 

Wrong, Alexius has very limited number of possibilities that he can do to affect situation due to his own limitations, especially that his time travel was extremely limited itself.Nor that does change that Alexius did nothing to force Fiona nor made saying no not a viable option for Fiona, as i said Fiona made that deal out of convenience and her foolishness. It seems your apologetics toward her, born terrible excuses that by any mean didn't force her to did what she did.