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Templars vs mages: A fundamental flaw.


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#1101
Lulupab

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She caught a case of the stupid? Lol.
Or maybe she was a witless idiot all along.

 

Maybe, or maybe Alexius tried hundreds of scenarios until he found what makes her tick.

 

For good or ill, she has accomplished a lot for the mage rebellion. That's not work of a witless idiot, if you go deeper in her past she has single-handedly saved dozen of grey warden operations, confirmed by Duncan and Riordan. I mean think about it, Qunari "fix" people with no magic at all, I shudder to think what someone who has access to best magic Thedas has to offer can do.



#1102
Hellion Rex

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Being able to control time makes him close enough to omnipotent, honestly. And that's pretty much what he did: he used time magic to bend the universe into a state that forced Fiona to accept his deal.

Not really, cause he could only reverse events within a very small frame of time.

#1103
Hellion Rex

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Maybe, or maybe Alexius tried hundreds of scenarios until he found what makes her tick.

For good or ill, she has accomplished a lot for the mage rebellion. That's not work of a witless idiot, if you go deeper in her past she has single-handedly saved dozen of grey warden operations, confirmed by Duncan and Riordan. I mean think about it, Qunari "fix" people with no magic at all, I shudder to think what someone who has access to best magic Thedas has to offer can do.

We know nothing of what Alexius did or didn't do, other than his one manipulation of time to get her to make the deal. It simply could have been that she did it of her own volition. I call her an idiot cause she made a deal with the devil. She made her own bed in the end. I pity those mage lives she condemned though through her choice.

#1104
Lulupab

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We know nothing of what Alexius did or didn't do, other than his one manipulation of time to get her to make the deal. It simply could have been that she did it of her own volition. I call her an idiot cause she made a deal with the devil. She made her own bed in the end. I pity those mage lives she condemned though through her choice.

 

I didn't say anything is certain but there is definitely room for doubt. I just don't know how some people assume things with certainty with it comes to that side of the plot. I mean I'd like to see their physics PhD and their studies on time travel, even then it won't help them much when the time travel is done with magic.

 

Also there was no way in hell she could know she was making a deal with the Venatori. If Alexius was a regular magister of Tevinter, then saying she made a deal with the devil would be highly debatable. Tevinter doesn't take in foreign mages easily, but in rare situations it has accepted them, such as after the first exalted march against Tevinter. Back then Tevinter opened its borders to southern mages. So in the scenario that Alexius was not with Venatori, Fiona actually made a decent decision.



#1105
TheKomandorShepard

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Also there was no way in hell she could know she was making a deal with the Venatori. If Alexius was a regular magister of Tevinter, then saying she made a deal with the devil would be highly debatable. Tevinter doesn't take in foreign mages easily, but in rare situations it has accepted them, such as after the first exalted march against Tevinter. Back then Tevinter opened its borders to southern mages. So in the scenario that Alexius was not with Venatori, Fiona actually made a decent decision.

 

Making deal with Tevinter magister alone in itself is extremely fishy and not precticulary smart idea, given Tevinter reputation and system on it's works it is akin to trusting Littlefinger to not screw you over.Not surprising it turned badly for her, pretty much foolish woman trused a snake and said snake bit her because it is in snake nature.



#1106
thesuperdarkone2

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There isn't. And i think that was the intention of the writers, to leave you wondering what could have happened to make Fiona go from approaching Inquisition directly and sounding quite logical to siding with Tevinter and sounding like a witless idiot.


Except there kind of is based on the guide outright saying they are, Weekes stating that guide is true, and the Venatori performing some spell on rebel mages in the investigate Redcliffe castle mission, and the rebel mages look corrupted in the Templar version of iyhsb. Seriously, do I need a picture of the corrupted rebel mages to prove it? Some of the warden mages also have the same look
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#1107
thesuperdarkone2

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Just letting people know, the divine Leliana ending if you sided with the Templars shows that literally every circle Mage in thedas except for those in the inquisition are DEAD.

If you side with the Templars, you practically wiped out a majority of Thedas' mages.

#1108
TheKomandorShepard

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Just letting people know, the divine Leliana ending if you sided with the Templars shows that literally every circle Mage in thedas except for those in the inquisition are DEAD.

If you side with the Templars, you practically wiped out a majority of Thedas' mages.

Good, there will be peace and quiet for some time in southern Thedas (assuming that bald mage nut won't blow anything up), no wonder we are going to Tevinter next game. ;)

 

 

Except there kind of is based on the guide outright saying they are, Weekes stating that guide is true, and the Venatori performing some spell on rebel mages in the investigate Redcliffe castle mission, and the rebel mages look corrupted in the Templar version of iyhsb. Seriously, do I need a picture of the corrupted rebel mages to prove it? Some of the warden mages also have the same look

Stop making stuff up, Weeks never confirmed guide is right i called you out on purposeful misinterpretation of what Weeks said twice in past.



#1109
Voidinist

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Just letting people know, the divine Leliana ending if you sided with the Templars shows that literally every circle Mage in thedas except for those in the inquisition are DEAD.

If you side with the Templars, you practically wiped out a majority of Thedas' mages.

 

Why are you so personally invested in this fictional group of people? Is it really not enough for you to side with them that you feel compelled to guilt-trip everyone into siding with them?

 

Queen dunce Fiona and her lemming followers chose their fate and no one else was obligated to dig them out of it. Natural selection has prevailed. :)


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#1110
thesuperdarkone2

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Why are you so personally invested in this fictional group of people? Is it really not enough for you to side with them that you feel compelled to guilt-trip everyone into siding with them?

 

Queen dunce Fiona and her lemming followers chose their fate and no one else was obligated to dig them out of it. Natural selection has prevailed. :)

Completely ignoring how the templars would have wiped themselves out because of orders unless you show up. Guess natural selection doesn't apply to them? Funny how what you said applies to the templars way more than the mages.

 

Also, the same applies to you: You sided with Viv and the templars. Why do you feel to need to constantly prove how you think mages suck?



#1111
Voidinist

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Completely ignoring how the templars would have wiped themselves out because of orders unless you show up. Guess natural selection doesn't apply to them?

 

Templar superiors tricking those under them into turning into red lyrium abominations  =/= Fiona and her lemmings willingly following a Tevinter magister to their fate with no codex of evidence to suggest that they've been brainwashed

 

And I didn't side with the Templars. My canon choice is conscripting the mages. I don't think mages suck. I think the rebel mages suck. :)



#1112
Lord of War

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And I didn't side with the Templars. My canon choice is conscripting the mages. I don't think mages suck. I think the rebel mages suck. :)

 

The rebel Templars were a gang of rabid beasts, which isn't too different from what they were under the Chantry, It took time itself being altered to get the rebel mages to deal with Alexius, all it took for the Templars to become monsters was their own incompetence.



#1113
Voidinist

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The rebel Templars were a gang of rabid beasts, which isn't too different from what they were under the Chantry, It took time itself being altered to get the rebel mages to deal with Alexius, all it took for the Templars to become monsters was their own incompetence.

 

Not knowing the properties of red lyrium isn't incompetence.

 

Regardless of whether or not time was altered, Fiona still had the backing of the Fereldan monarchy. An alliance with Tevinter was wholly unnecessary. That he showed up at the right time to "save" them from a Templar assault isn't cause enough to enter an agreement with him, not a long-term agreement at least. Fiona was and has always been an impulsive dingus and her lemming followers shared her fate willingly even when most of them didn't agree with it. Hilariously enough a tranquil of all people in the entire group was the only one with sense enough to leave with the Inquisitor.


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#1114
Lord of War

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Not knowing the properties of red lyrium isn't incompetence.

 

Regardless of whether or not time was altered, Fiona still had the backing of the Fereldan monarchy. An alliance with Tevinter was wholly unnecessary. That he showed up at the right time to "save" them from a Templar assault isn't cause enough to enter an agreement with him, not a long-term agreement at least. Fiona was and has always been an impulsive dingus and her lemming followers shared her fate willingly even when most of them didn't agree with it. Hilariously enough a tranquil of all people in the entire group was the only one with sense enough to leave with the Inquisitor.

 

They're incompetent for following a demon (their whole job is to stop demons), and for joining the rebellion (really more a slaughter-tantrum) in the first place.

 

I didn't see any Fereldan soldiers there defending the mages, and really, where would you expect them to go if they left Redcliffe? The rabid Templar filled wilderness? In ones and twos? The Tranquil leaves because Alexius has no reason to care, and the rest have nowhere else to go.



#1115
Hellion Rex

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Just letting people know, the divine Leliana ending if you sided with the Templars shows that literally every circle Mage in thedas except for those in the inquisition are DEAD.

If you side with the Templars, you practically wiped out a majority of Thedas' mages.

Cool beans. Good thing I never let Leliana be Divine.

Also, do you have the corresponding slide from the epilogue or a link to some dialogue that backs up that rather large claim?

#1116
Voidinist

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They're incompetent for following a demon (their whole job is to stop demons), and for joining the rebellion (really more a slaughter-tantrum) in the first place.

 

I didn't see any Fereldan soldiers there defending the mages, and really, where would you expect them to go if they left Redcliffe? The rabid Templar filled wilderness? In ones and twos? The Tranquil leaves because Alexius has no reason to care, and the rest have nowhere else to go.

 

An envy demon is apparently rare, most of the rank and file aren't trained/experienced in dealing with them. Even if they suspected it, they'd be careful accusing their boss of demonic replacement for a variety of reasons, one reason being that they hold the monopoly on lyrium. And another being, how could someone like the Lord Seeker get replaced? Nonsense.

 

The mages were sitting comfy in the most defensible fortress in Fereldan. Eamon(?) in a codex says that only magic has made a dent in it. There is no reason why they should enter a long-term agreement with an enemy nation for a problem that he can barely even help with further than the assault.

 

Maybe it would be unreasonable to expect them to leave while the Templar presence is still in the area but the Inquisition has the option to remove the threat. Then I'd expect them to ignore their treasonous leader and follow the Inquisitor out. But alas, the rebels are completely helpless babies.



#1117
Lulupab

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Templar superiors tricking those under them into turning into red lyrium abominations  =/= Fiona and her lemmings willingly following a Tevinter magister to their fate with no codex of evidence to suggest that they've been brainwashed

 

And I didn't side with the Templars. My canon choice is conscripting the mages. I don't think mages suck. I think the rebel mages suck. :)

 

If Fiona made a deal with an actual Tevinter magister who was not part of Venatori, then the decision could be seen as smart. But she was tricked into dealing with Venatori, just like the Templars were tricked. If Alexius was not a part of Venatori and his deal was real with Fiona, then it obligates Tevinter to protect the mages and provide food and shelter for them, in return they serve (not as slaves) Tevinter. And the serving part is not permanent. Tevinter offered this to southern mages before, its an actual law over there. I don't see anything wrong with this deal, except she didn't know about the Venatori, no one did.



#1118
Lulupab

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Making deal with Tevinter magister alone in itself is extremely fishy and not precticulary smart idea, given Tevinter reputation and system on it's works it is akin to trusting Littlefinger to not screw you over.Not surprising it turned badly for her, pretty much foolish woman trused a snake and said snake bit her because it is in snake nature.

 

How original...

 

As I said Tevinter has taken in mages like that before, so what is this "Tevinter reputation". As if other countries don't have a reputation. Tevinter likes mages.



#1119
Voidinist

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If Fiona made a deal with an actual Tevinter magister who was not part of Venatori, then the decision could be seen as smart. But she was tricked into dealing with Venatori, just like the Templars were tricked. If Alexius was not a part of Venatori and his deal was real with Fiona, then it obligates Tevinter to protect the mages and provide food and shelter for them, in return they serve (not as slaves) Tevinter. And the serving part is not permanent. Tevinter offered this to southern mages before, its an actual law over there. I don't see anything wrong with this deal, except she didn't know about the Venatori, no one did.

 

10 years of servitude until being eligible for Tevinter citizenship with no telling on how many are going to get to rule the muggles and how many are going to be sold into slavery sure sounds like a superb deal, I'll admit.



#1120
Xilizhra

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Templar superiors tricking those under them into turning into red lyrium abominations  =/= Fiona and her lemmings willingly following a Tevinter magister to their fate with no codex of evidence to suggest that they've been brainwashed

 

And I didn't side with the Templars. My canon choice is conscripting the mages. I don't think mages suck. I think the rebel mages suck. :)

Fun fact: red lyrium doesn't actually induce mind control. It can bring on fits of madness, and sometimes you go crazy completely, but none of the red templars were psychically dominated into joining Corypheus; it was all something they chose. This is nicely explored in the short story Paper and Steel.



#1121
Voidinist

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Fun fact: red lyrium doesn't actually induce mind control. It can bring on fits of madness, and sometimes you go crazy completely, but none of the red templars were psychically dominated into joining Corypheus; it was all something they chose. This is nicely explored in the short story Paper and Steel.

 

So madness, as in, not in a clear state of mind to know right from wrong, help the ancient magister that controls the blight in the red lyrium or don't help him? k.



#1122
Vit246

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After years I am rather tired of the touting of the "Tevinter reputation". Every kingdom has a reputation but that doesn't mean they never do business with each other. I think its called "realpolitik". Why should Tevinter be any more worse than the others? It sounds like people think Tevinter should somehow be shunned as if it were North Korea or a leper. Is a Southern foreigner dealing with Tevinter an outlandish outrageous stigmatizing ostracizing thing amongst the customs and politics of Thedas?



#1123
Lulupab

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10 years of servitude until being eligible for Tevinter citizenship with no telling on how many are going to get to rule the muggles and how many are going to be sold into slavery sure sounds like a superb deal, I'll admit.

 

This deal has been made with southern mages previously. Its a law in Tevinter, if a foreign mage wants to live in Tevinter, they need to go through this process. So its official. Its very likely they will become Laetans aka commoner mages of Tevinter. They won't become slaves, but they won't rule either.

 

I think its better than sitting and waiting for either Templars or someone else to attack you. Templars already attacked Redcliff once, mages and people of Redcliff died. You can ask around regarding the matter. Not only that, their fate is unknown and not looking good overall. At least this way they have a future and not walking blind into what south decides to do with them.



#1124
Xilizhra

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So madness, as in, not in a clear state of mind to know right from wrong, help the ancient magister that controls the blight in the red lyrium or don't help him? k.

Not like that, more like "WHAAAARGARBL" *slash slash slash*

 


Samson was about to say that he could move the tent farther away, when he heard a shout and screams from outside. In a flash, he shoved the tent flap aside and raced down to the camp.

Wild-eyed, his blanket smoldering where it had been flung in the fire, the young templar Wystan was staggering in a loose circle of his fellows, lunging briefly at each one. A dripping sword was in his hand, and the hollow sound coming from his throat was inhuman. A cook crouched by the fire, nursing his torn and bloody side.

The hair on Samson’s nape pricked him like needles. He had seen this madness come upon his templars before. But never so quickly.

Wystan snarled and slashed his blade at the others. From either side, three of the templars piled on him, dragging at his arms to bring him down—Wystan threw off two, and the third, the camp quartermaster, stumbled away clutching a terrible gouge in her face.

“Leave him to me!”

Samson shoved carelessly through the crowd and faced Wystan. The red gleam in the lad’s eyes was incandescent. “Stand off, Wystan,” he ordered.

Wystan grinned unevenly. The reddish tinge had spread to his teeth, to the nails of the hand that gripped his sword. And then Samson realized he’d sprinted out of Maddox’s tent with no weapon and no helmet.

“Stronger already,” whispered Wystan. “I can… We tasted the red, and soon they’ll be dead!”

His free hand clutched at his head as if in pain, before he leapt. Samson sidestepped, but the young recruit was well-trained. Wystan swung about and would have hacked down into the back of Samson’s neck if he hadn’t rolled away right at once. Samson scrambled to his feet, remembering brawls in Kirkwall’s streets after dark… and stranger things than thieves that prowled the shadows of Lowtown, there and gone like nightmares.

But this was no dream. This boy was his templar, under his command, his to protect.

“We tasted the red,” Wystan said again, weaving like a snake. “You gave it to us. We’re becoming… more. To fight for a new world. This is what you wanted.”

“But you’re letting it control you,” Samson said. The two of them were circling each other, eyes locked. “A man uses his strength. It doesn’t use him. That was the Chantry’s way. That’s what we took the lyrium into our own hands for. Remember?”

Wystan shrieked; the sound sawed at Samson’s ears like a demon’s challenge. Through it, from the crowd of soldiers shifting around them, a calmer voice said: “Excuse me, Samson.” The broken blade of Samson’s sword, the shattered end wrapped with leather, landed at the general’s feet. He flicked it up with the toe of his foot and wrapped one end of the leather tightly around his knuckles. Samson glimpsed Maddox’s emotionless face in the firelight before Wystan rushed at him, crazed, his own sword flashing.

Samson parried the stroke. Wystan pressed him and they clashed. Without a hilt, Samson’s grip was awkward, but he was able to dart and weave like a bee trying to land a sting. As Wystan swung at his head, Samson drew upon the lyrium he’d drunk earlier, drew back his empty hand, and punched Wystan in the stomach with unnatural strength. A red shimmer rippled out from the blow. The lad choked but didn’t drop his sword; instead he lunged for the kill. Samson brought up the broken blade and knocked Wystan’s sword up and off. The cut that should have taken out Samson’s eye passed over his shoulder in a blur.

Seizing his chance, Samson slammed his forehead into Wystan’s face. He saw stars, and something crunched, but it was Wystan who reeled away. The boy tripped. Droplets of blood flew as he sprawled on the grass.

Samson planted a knee on his chest and put his blade against Wystan’s throat. “Feel this? Feel the steel around your neck? That’s what the Chantry did. Poisoned us for its own power, then collared us like a rabid mabari.”

He pressed harder for a second, knowing that he could kill this boy. He could end what was to come before it even started.

Then he lowered the blade. “And this is what we do. Because we chose to take control. Because we’ll burn it all down before we let the Chantry claim one more templar.”

Wystan went limp. The red gleam to his eye was softer now. He let out a strangled sob. “Ser. Ser, I—“

Samson moved his knee, grasped Wystan’s forearm and pulled him up. “It takes you like that sometimes,” he said. “The trick is to not be ruled by it.”



#1125
Lulupab

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So madness, as in, not in a clear state of mind to know right from wrong, help the ancient magister that controls the blight in the red lyrium or don't help him? k.

 

They are not mad, they are just VERY addicted to red Lyrium so they go back for more. Its a more twisted version of Chantry used to control Templars.