1158 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

I don't actually think that we should bother with this "how many Harrowings is too many".  Instead of being the mandatory conclusion of a mage's training, it should only be undertaken by those who wish to live away from the Circle to prove that they can indeed be trusted to safeguard themselves against demons.  (obvious it won't be a perfect solution, but I'm willing to give the mages some benefit of the doubt).  Mages who choose not to take it would be restricted to the Circle/other areas with Templar supervision.

AN interesting compromise.

[Iakus]

This deal has been made with southern mages previously. Its a law in Tevinter, if a foreign mage wants to live in Tevinter, they need to go through this process.  

citation needed

[Voidinist]

They are not mad, they are just VERY addicted to red Lyrium so they go back for more. Its a more twisted version of Chantry used to control Templars.

 

So basically no fault of their own that they're serving the ancient magister who can absolutely control the blight in the highly addictive red lyrium as opposed to Fiona, who we have no evidence of being brainwashed, follows him on her own volition in the hope that one day 10 years later she and her lemmings can potentially live as citizens in the free mage promised land. Okay.

[thesuperdarkone2]

They are not mad, they are just VERY addicted to red Lyrium so they go back for more. Its a more twisted version of Chantry used to control Templars.

Pretty much. If they were completely brainwashed, why do some red Templars show annoyance and disappointment multiple times in letters and samson's short story,

Also, if they are completely brainwashed, why does one red Templar want to get rid of the red lyrium in suledin keep?

[Lulupab]

citation needed

  

Various, but single individual mages don't matter here. Accepting mages in mass is indeed rare since such a thing requires southern mages escaping something and Tevinter seeking the opportunity. During the exalted marches against Tevinter, south was very harsh on mages and Tevinter wanted more people. So it accepted mages who escaped from south.

 

Dragon Age: Origins: Prima Official Game Guide "Between 4:40 Black and 5:10 Exalted, a total of four Exalted Marches gathered large armies from around the Andrastian Chantry's domains, and launched assaults deep into Tevinter. Each Exalted March fell just short of its goal of conquering Minrathous, however, and the Marches served mainly to cement the separation between Minrathous and Val Royeaux. The Imperial Chantry started to form its own dogma and policies, and the groundswell of mages fleeing from southern lands into Tevinter bolstered the empire's waning power"

[Lulupab]

So basically no fault of their own that they're serving the ancient magister who can absolutely control the blight in the highly addictive red lyrium as opposed to Fiona, who we have no evidence of being brainwashed, follows him on her own volition in the hope that one day 10 years later she and her lemmings can potentially live as citizens in the free mage promised land. Okay.

 

Addiction is their fault, they choose to become Templars and they choose to ingest Lyrium. A mage is born and discriminated against the moment they set into this world. Don't get dramatic on me. As I said the Qunari can "fix" people with no magic, Alexius had access to one of the most advanced magic aspect on Thedas, it surprised even Solas.

[Voidinist]

Addiction is their fault, they choose to become Templars and they choose to ingest Lyrium. A mage is born and discriminated against the moment they set into this world. Don't get dramatic on me. As I said the Qunari can "fix" people with no magic, Alexius had access to one of the most advanced magic aspect on Thedas, it surprised even Solas.

 

"Addiction is their fault" treads dangerously on IRL addiction.

 

But otherwise inescapable poverty/supporting their families is among the most common reason for mundanes to join the Templars. Am I supposed to fault them for that

[Lulupab]

"Addiction is their fault" treads dangerously on IRL addiction.

 

But inescapable poverty/supporting their families is among the most common for mundanes to join the Templars. Am I supposed to fault them for that

 

If they can fight, they can become city guards or become soldiers. Pretty sure Thedas always needs them. We are not talking about IRL addiction though, even then apart from some exception, addiction is always the addict's fault. 

[Beerfish]

Addiction is their fault, they choose to become Templars and they choose to ingest Lyrium. A mage is born and discriminated against the moment they set into this world. Don't get dramatic on me. As I said the Qunari can "fix" people with no magic, Alexius had access to one of the most advanced magic aspect on Thedas, it surprised even Solas.

As they should be.

[Barquiel]

So madness, as in, not in a clear state of mind to know right from wrong, help the ancient magister that controls the blight in the red lyrium or don't help him? k.

These templars willingly decided to follow a genocidal manic, followed one bad order after the other, went on ethnic cleansing rampages for months and knew exactly what they were doing was illegal in the eyes of the chantry. And "then" they began to take red lyrium, starting in Kirkwall (they can't even use ignorance as an excuse there). And I am supposed to feel sorry for them? Nope, not at all.

[Captain Wiseass]

How widespread is the knowledge about lyrium's addictive effects? How many would-be templars know the risk they're running when they sign up?

 

On a separate matter, I don't view Fiona's choice to sign up with Alexius as naive or pollyannaish so much as her only option in a bad situation. The Conclave had failed, the situation in Redcliffe was growing more untenable by the day, and as far as she knew, the Templars were coming sooner rather than later, and they would not be taking prisoners. Alexius was, at the time, the only person offering an alternative to death or Tranquility. If you're drowning and a pirate throws you a life preserver, you go ahead and take the life preserver, and deal with what the pirate wants from you after you're out of the water.

[thesuperdarkone2]

How widespread is the knowledge about lyrium's addictive effects? How many would-be templars know the risk they're running when they sign up?

On a separate matter, I don't view Fiona's choice to sign up with Alexius as naive or pollyannaish so much as her only option in a bad situation. The Conclave had failed, the situation in Redcliffe was growing more untenable by the day, and as far as she knew, the Templars were coming sooner rather than later, and they would not be taking prisoners. Alexius was, at the time, the only person offering an alternative to death or Tranquility. If you're drowning and a pirate throws you a life preserver, you go ahead and take the life preserver, and deal with what the pirate wants from you after you're out of the water.

I think the lyrium is well known so anyone who joins the Templars knows full well they are going to be an addict

[Voidinist]

These templars willingly decided to follow a genocidal manic, followed one bad order after the other, went on ethnic cleansing rampages for months and knew exactly what they were doing was illegal in the eyes of the chantry. And "then" they began to take red lyrium, starting in Kirkwall (they can't even use ignorance as an excuse there). And I am supposed to feel sorry for them? Nope, not at all.

 

Nowhere did I say you are supposed to feel sorry. I've said that's it's unfortunate that initially they're suckered into addiction to escape poverty and that it's not their fault for their superiors' tricks but I don't personally support the rebel Templars' goals. I would conscript both factions.

 

Has it ever been mentioned that the whole world knows of red lyrium beyond Kirkwall before Corypheus tries to use it as a weapon?

[Iakus]

Various, but single individual mages don't matter here. Accepting mages in mass is indeed rare since such a thing requires southern mages escaping something and Tevinter seeking the opportunity. During the exalted marches against Tevinter, south was very harsh on mages and Tevinter wanted more people. So it accepted mages who escaped from south.

 

Dragon Age: Origins: Prima Official Game Guide "Between 4:40 Black and 5:10 Exalted, a total of four Exalted Marches gathered large armies from around the Andrastian Chantry's domains, and launched assaults deep into Tevinter. Each Exalted March fell just short of its goal of conquering Minrathous, however, and the Marches served mainly to cement the separation between Minrathous and Val Royeaux. The Imperial Chantry started to form its own dogma and policies, and the groundswell of mages fleeing from southern lands into Tevinter bolstered the empire's waning power"

I mean how do we know that the "deal" Alexius offered to Fiona was something standard that Tevinter offers southern mages?

[Barquiel]

Has it ever been mentioned that the whole world knows of red lyrium beyond Kirkwall before Corypheus tries to use it as a weapon?

I'm sure Varric mentioned it in his book, templars should read more

[Iakus]

How widespread is the knowledge about lyrium's addictive effects? How many would-be templars know the risk they're running when they sign up?

 

 

Outside the Tempalrs themselves, it doesn't seem to be well-known.  Rhys didn't seem to realize how debilitating it would be for Evangeline if she ran out of lyrium on their way to Adamant in Asunder.  If if anyone outside the Templar Order would know, it would be a Circle mage.

 

The Templars themselves do seem to know.  But they see it as a sacrifice made for the good of the Chantry.

 

 

Has it ever been mentioned that the whole world knows of red lyrium beyond Kirkwall before Corypheus tries to use it as a weapon?

Quite the opposite.  Varric seemed to take great pains to ensure knowledge of red lyrium died with Meredith.  but it didn't.

 

As it is, though, Templars seemed to think of red lyrium as being, well, lyrium.  And red.  And somehow "better" than other kinds.  But that's not considered too unusual as apparently there are always experiments going on with lyrium to improve its effects.  This was just one more. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

I'm sure Varric mentioned it in his book, templars should read more

And the codex for red lyrium is a report from the wardens. Plus, considering everyone know about Kirkwall, I doubt they forget about the person who does anime jumps and brought statues to life

[Lulupab]

I mean how do we know that the "deal" Alexius offered to Fiona was something standard that Tevinter offers southern mages?

 

I don't remember the specifics, when David Gaider was asked why not all mages migrate to Tevinter to escape circle he said there are harsh requirements for becoming a Tevinter citizen. He never mentioned these requirements. I'm guessing they are either what Alexius said or negotiable. There was also another source but I don't remember right now, WoT maybe? I'll read it and get back to this thread later.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I mean how do we know that the "deal" Alexius offered to Fiona was something standard that Tevinter offers southern mages?

I think WOT said that this type of deal is somewhat common in tevinter

[TheKomandorShepard]

How original...

 

As I said Tevinter has taken in mages like that before, so what is this "Tevinter reputation". As if other countries don't have a reputation. Tevinter likes mages.

It isn't supposed to be original it supposed to be common sense.

 

Tevinter likes no one including itself, even mages aren't safe from terrible fate in Tevinter, and loyalty is far from priority (understatement) among magisters. If you look for a good Samaritan, rather don't do that among nobility of country that is one of biggest hellholes in the setting, country where politics encourage and even require blood magic and human sacrifice to survive, also where nobility is known from kicking puppies.

[thesuperdarkone2]

It isn't supposed to be original it supposed to be common sense.

 

Tevinter likes no one including itself, even mages aren't safe from terrible fate in Tevinter, and loyalty is far from priority (understatement) among magisters. If you look for a good Samaritan, rather don't do that among nobility of country that is one of biggest hellholes in the setting, country where politics encourage and even require blood magic and human sacrifice to survive, also where nobility is known from kicking puppies.

As opposed to Orlais where backstabbing is considering a game, where Chevaliers are allowed to legally rape whoever they want, have a tradition where the murder elves, and force to commoners to constantly live in fear of them, and whose servants are slaves in all but name.

[Iakus]

  Plus, considering everyone know about Kirkwall, I doubt they forget about the person who does anime jumps and brought statues to life

This is the city where carta dwarves perform paradrops off the roof of buildings and blood magic in the streets isn't even blinked at.  Anime jumps and animating statues is small potatoes 

[Iakus]

As opposed to Orlais where backstabbing is considering a game, where Chevaliers are allowed to legally rape whoever they want, have a tradition where the murder elves, and force to commoners to constantly live in fear of them, and whose servants are slaves in all but name.

This is not a denial of how Tevinter acts...

[TheKomandorShepard]

As opposed to Orlais where backstabbing is considering a game, where Chevaliers are allowed to legally rape whoever they want, have a tradition where the murder elves, and force to commoners to constantly live in fear of them, and whose servants are slaves in all but name.

 

I never said Orlesian nobles are more trustworthy, tough if i had chose between trusting tevinter magister and chevalier i would go with chevalier because they are at least bound by their code of honor.

[Lulupab]

It isn't supposed to be original it supposed to be common sense.

 

Tevinter likes no one including itself, even mages aren't safe from terrible fate in Tevinter, and loyalty is far from priority (understatement) among magisters. If you look for a good Samaritan, rather don't do that among nobility of country that is one of biggest hellholes in the setting, country where politics encourage and even require blood magic and human sacrifice to survive, also where nobility is known from kicking puppies.

 

Politics will always exist, we have it too. But if you want to compare it to Thedas then you will have to go way back in history. Sure we didn't have blood magic, but we had poison, rape and genocide. Evidently Orlais has it all too. 

 

There is no particularly bright country in Thedas, so I'm not sure what shining example you are comparing Tevinter to. Name a country in Thedas and I will write an essay about how bad its doing.